bulk cargo shipping ?

[jasper]

Why is cargo fee done by jump instead of distance?
I could see the price being the minium if jump distance is equal to jump drive. Jump distance is 2 parsecs because no systems exits between pt a and pt b.
Ex pocket empire with systems name after solar sytem.
So a jump 1 ship would take 8 jumps to go from mercury to pluto and take 8 weeks and 8,000. But jump 2 would take 4 jumps 4 weeks and cost 4000.

It like say it now cost 37 cents to over night a letter but takes $1.11 to send 3 day mail?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Oh boy! Here we go!

 

[robject]

As ROS says, "here we go".

I think the rate-per-jump is more or less there to make ships with longer legs more attractive to shippers. Another way of looking at it is that the price is for volume in transit per week -- note that the cargo's actual value isn't significant in this case. In other words, size does matter. The scarce resource in Traveller shipping is the cargo hold, and time is money. Something like that.

After all, Traveller isn't really about economics (gasp!), so convenient abstractions Keep It Simple.

Of course, some people don't like the scheme, and prefer something like a price-per-parsec model. As in all things Traveller, the referee is free to make up his own rules.

 

[Psion]

I think it would be convenient to rate it per parsec, even if it's not linear (e.g., 2 pc = x 1.5, 3 pc = x 2.0, etc.) That would make the free trader seem more practical in mains and clusters/

 

[Zutroi]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Oh boy! Here we go!

That's right, boys and girls, it's time for another exposition on Traveller Economics!

Just remember the system is designed to make it impossible for a player character to make the mortgage payment on a ship without cutting the odd ethical corner and/or running the 'risks' inherent in speculative trade and you'll do fine, Jasper!

 

[RainOfSteel]

I provide the following thread references for the convenience of all who glance inside this thread.

Dedicated Freighters and Containerized Cargo

Traveller Cargo Standards

Price-Fixed Travel

Far Trader cargo/Freight manifest questions

Cargo Containers in your Traveller Universe

Cargo, Clearances, Visas, etc.

 

[jasper]

Yeah I just asking because one my players dangled the hint of the group getting back together to play. And one of them asked about the shipping rates.
I am either going to say the rate is duel Imp law or use a multiplier for fast ships.
Thanks for links.

 

[Morte]

I went through this, in horrible detail, in a game with two post-doctoral economics researchers as players.

To cut a very long story short, I suggest that for simple but slightly-realistic PC scale trade you use Cr 650/jump + 350/parsec for freight, and scale passengers the same. I think that's about reasonable for the more economical T20 PC ships obeying the 2 jumps/month rule, i.e. the ones that would establish the going rate in the "left over cargos" market.

[Beware of detached scouts with crews of two, fuel-scoops and a purifier but no mortgage i.e. minimal overheads. They absolutely rake it in...]

 

[Psion]

Interesting. I was considering revising the speculative trade rules, never really thought cargo and passengers were worth that much attention...

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by Psion:
Interesting. I was considering revising the speculative trade rules, never really thought cargo and passengers were worth that much attention...

Depends on your ship. Sensible designs will make money on cargo and pax.

Most standard designs range from "very poor" to "plain daft", e.g. they have scoops but no purifier when a merchie wants the opposite -- they can't afford the time to fly off and scoop, but they save Cr400/dt by buying unrefined at the starport. No sane merchant would buy most standard designs, at least not at their new price.

[I did have a system for working out the price of ships based on what they're worth, rather than what they cost to build, but I can't find it.]

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by Morte:

Most standard designs range from "very poor" to "plain daft", e.g. they have scoops but no purifier when a merchie wants the opposite -- they can't afford the time to fly off and scoop, but they save Cr400/dt by buying unrefined at the starport. No sane merchant would buy most standard designs, at least not at their new price.

Hey, now. You are making the former captain of the Bray Keavan sound sensible...

 

[jasper]

Jump Distance
Jump 1 Cargo 1000 High 6850 Middle 5550 Low 950
Jump 2 Cargo 1350 high 7200 Middle 5900 Low 1350
Jump 3 Cargo 1700 High 7550 Middle 6250 Low 2000
Jump 4 Cargo 2050 High 7900 Middle 6600 Low 2050
Jump 5 Cargo 2400 High 8250 Middle 6950 Low 2400
Jump 6 Cargo 2750 High 8600 Middle 7300 Low 3050

Hum looks at cost chart. Adds the cost in to ticket price. That is if the forumla you gave does not include expenses
Jump 1 High 7850 Middle 6300 Low 1000
Jump 2 high 8200 Middle 6650 Low 1400
Jump 3 High 8550 Middle 7000 Low 1750
Jump 4 High 8900 Middle 7350 Low 2100
Jump 5 High 9250 Middle 7700 Low 2450
Jump 6 High 9600 Middle 8050 Low 2800

 

[jasper]

http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000905

1 dTon does = 1000 kilograms ? Yes or no?

 

[Morte]

Re cargo/pax pricing: take the normal T20 prices for 1 parsec, and add 35% for each parsec after the first.

It's a measure of volume, not mass. 1 dton = 1 "displacement ton" = the volume displaced by a ton of liquid hydrogen = 13.5 or 14 cubic meters (nobody knows) = about 500 cubic feet.

In T20, mass is not very important -- you have anti-gravity to get off planets, and jump drives enclose a space rather than moving a mass. So things are specified by volume rather than weight. As usual, however, the system is unnecessarily confusing and incompatible with other parts of the game (vehicles use a completely different set of volume units).

 

[jasper]

The A2 200 ton on the t20 lite Cost 84.673 has Crew of 5 (added 1 for steward) and 7 staterooms available for travellers (3 being used by crew), 4 low berths and 66 tons of cargo
Set 1 dton for baggage allowance. Ship only takes 2 parsec distance jumps.
Monthly costs
Mortgage 352,804 + Crew life support 3,750 + fuel 400 (4 dTons for power plant) + 1764 (maintenance) = 358,718

Cost per Jump
40100 (fuel and berth) Pass tickets reflect their life support cost.
Prices
Cargo 1350 per dTon low 1400, middle 6650 double 10773 per room high 8200, double 13120 per room
1. Full cargo, full low, full high double Total income 87750 + 5600 + 91480 = 184830 - 40100 = 144730 profit after jump. 3 jumps a month 75472 + in the month. Profit for all even if crew salaries is half the profit. So a regular shipping liner route could run every 10 days. However not profitable even at 2.5 jumps a month.
2. Full cargo, Full low, Full single high 87750 + 5600 + 57400 = 150,750 -40100 = 110650 No need to go further red city.
3. Full cargo, Full low, Full middle double 87750 + 5600 + 75411 = 168761 - 40100 = 128661
Only 27265 before salaries. Worse than number 1 you at breakeven here.
4 .Full Cargo, Full low, Full middle single 87750 + 5600 + 46550 = 139900 - 40100 = 100205 In the hole by 60.
So an A2 200 dTon trader cant make money unless it has speculative cargo on all jumps except for condition one.
I think we need to adjust the numbers for either base fee. Or get a bigger ship

 

[Morte]

Middle passage is normally Cr8000 for single occupancy, or Cr 13000 for two sharing. With my 35% surcharge for going an extra parsec, that's 17550 for two sharing.

You can cut costs a bit by buying supplies in bulk. Assume you bulk buy 1 dton of supplies (80 person/weeks) for Cr 54000, that's 1350 for two people for a week. So you would clear 12250 (T20 rules) or 16200 (my rules) for that stateroom over 2 parsecs.

You can pick up a bit more revenue on priority cargo if you manage to roll it. There's also good money on hazardous and security cargos, but I'd ignore them unless I had the right ship/crew.

But, as you say, the reference A2 in the book is not a profit machine. It's a really bad design. It needs a fuel purifier, which cuts the fuel cost by 80%. Then it can do OK.

What you really want is:

- TL11 (lowest costs and wasted space that you can get serviced easily)
- 200 dton flattened spherical hull (cheapest that can land)
- J2 (J1 is too restrictive)
- 1g (2g is a waste)
- Model 1/bis computer
- Fuel purifier (pay 100/dt instead of 500/dt for fuel)
- A damn good broker and decent trading fund
- A decent medic for the low berths
- A purser with the Steward and Chief Steward feats (attract HiPax)
- Enough Liaison, Recruiting, P/Admin and K/Interstellar Law to get the cargo/pax bonuses (see T20 THB pp 356-7)
- No deadweight adventurers using life support and occupying cabins which could carry passengers

... or just make the captain and broker NPCs, and tell the PCs "they make just enough to pay you".

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Morte:
I went through this, in horrible detail, in a game with two post-doctoral economics researchers as players.

To cut a very long story short, I suggest that for simple but slightly-realistic PC scale trade you use Cr 650/jump + 350/parsec for freight, and scale passengers the same. I think that's about reasonable for the more economical T20 PC ships obeying the 2 jumps/month rule, i.e. the ones that would establish the going rate in the "left over cargos" market.

<snip>

Those are GT:Credits rates, right?

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Those are GT:Credits rates, right?

No, GT:FT pays near enough the same for each parsec (e.g. 700 for 1, 1300 for 2, 1950 for 3, 2600 for 4). I pay 1000 for the first parsec and 350 for each additional parsec (1000 for 1, 1350 for 2, 1700 for 3, 2050 for 4).

NB: conditions are different, ship designs and mortgages are different in GURPS as are operating costs. Direct comparisons to T20 are problematic.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Morte,

So, you were quoting CT/T20 similar credits? Ok.

On Cr700/Cr650 per dTon of cargo for a Two Parsec jump in a Far Trader, I don't think the ship could make its monthly costs on that.

 

[jasper]

Hey this ok. I working in excell (learning excell) to see how the numbers fall