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Book 2 v5

RE: Improvements to make:

I LIKE that the small weapons were worthless against the A6 hulls. That is not what they are for. The smaller weapons, while worthless in attacking the dreadnaught, would be much better suited for all those pesky fighters or escorts or pirates or whatever. You don't necessarily want a critical hit/instant kill with every shot. Boarding Actions require that there be some ship left. First you shoot at them with the peashooter, if they don't stop, you vaporize them with the Big Guns.
 
I'm assuming that you want a HG-like combat system.

If this is the case, then the simple armour solution is "Max armour rating is equal to the targets size attribute".

Armour should also get "smaller" (as a percentage of total ship volume) as the ship hull gets bigger, but I'll have to run some math to give you a decent approximation here

This means that fighters are *forced* to have AV=0 (no more impossible to kill fighters) and you can simply use the crits from HG as-is (so a fighter being hit will *always* result in a critical hit) Big batteries against small lightly armoured targets cause critical hits etc.

Those light batteries should be scoring surface hits with negative dm's (mostly no effect, but some fuel and weapon hits on "lucky" rolls) while the big battleship guns should be blowing holes through the poor cruisers...

Perhaps:
Weapon damage < AV = "Surface Hit"
Weapon Damage >= AV = "Internal Hit"
Weapon Damage - (AV/3 + Hull Size) = additional Critical Hits

Escorts are a non-issue in your scenario, since they are unable to interdict beam weapon fire (the 3 CA's would still concentrate on the BB and ignore the escorts until it goes down, perhaps using those "useless" light laser batteries to wear them down) Escorts *will* be an issue for engagements with fighters (where a light battery kills a fighter) and missiles (where they should be able to use their batteries to eliminate missile attacks on the ships they are escorting.

Scott Martin
 
Here we go into megaships and fleet actions. How often does combat need to be resolved between really big (5k ton +) ships in the course of role playing? In LBB2 v5 I really think the emphasis should not be on the uber-ships and placed on PC scale ships.
Yeah you can have your killer 500kt super destruct-o-battleships and spinal mount whatitsnots but what use can they be in a game setting that is not a war game? Please leave the big ships in a High Guard type book, not a LBB2 setting.
 
Save the Uber-ships for a seperate compatable product like a Brilliant Lances wargame, or for PC scale, another AHL type product...
 
Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
Here we go into megaships and fleet actions. How often does combat need to be resolved between really big (5k ton +) ships in the course of role playing? In LBB2 v5 I really think the emphasis should not be on the uber-ships and placed on PC scale ships.
Never. The above simulation was a wargame setting, as was last night's:

Summary

I pitted three light cruisers against seven defense boats of varying potential. The game was a draw, with the player stopping due to boredom.

Setup
All ten ships were generously armed, and somewhat lightly armored.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">#3 Lt Cruiser J6 M6 A2 L{5,6}
#2 Boat Type A MB A2 L{6}
#2 Boat Type B MB A2 L{4}
#3 Boat Type C MB A2 L{3}

('MB' means Maneuver-11, by the way)

Small laser batteries are 3-2-1
Medium laser batteries are 6-5-4</pre>[/QUOTE]I suppose the Light Cruisers displaced somewhere around 5000 tons, and the boats displaced from 300 to 600 tons.

The boats were at a distinct disadvantage, because their weapon batteries could only damage at close range, and then only inflict one point per hit. Their only saving grace is their vastly superior maneuver capability, which only allows them to break off and abandon their crippled comrades when it's obvious that they can't win.

Highlights

Well, there weren't any, really. From the onset, this was a battle of attrition, with the boats concentrating on taking out one cruiser at a time, and each cruiser battering a different boat.

The only minor event of note was, once more, a lucky crit from a boat that disabled the power plant of one of the cruisers. But the cruisers were wearing down the boats faster, and I figured it was only a matter of time.

Lessons Learned

Too many attacking weapons is NO FUN. With 33 attack rolls from the cruisers, and 29 from the boats, the game turned boring by the second round.

Each attacking side should roll a maximum of 12 times, for the sake of holding interest. This should be a built-in default. Only players who know what they're doing should be allowed to break batteries into 33 different attacks.

Improvements to Make

Scott Martin's made an excellent observation about how FFS scales weapons into batteries, and is in line with what I was thinking: the ability to group weapons into ever larger batteries could be a heuristic scale.

So then, if a ship has the MFD program running, it can group its weapons into batteries like this:

Every X weapons builds a factor of the next level.
Where X=3 (the "triple turret" view) or 4 (the "quadruple your input energy" view). This would theoretically equate battery factors with hardpoint requirements.

So, for example, say a defense boat has three triple beam turrets, perhaps 1-1-1 damage, and is running an MFD program. If 3 weapons group to the next level, then the ship could bear three 2-2-2 batteries, or one 3-3-3 battery.

Is that mechanic too powerful?

Focus: Linking Ship Firepower

Plank and Scott both have good points: small weapons fire shouldn't damage dreadnoughts... but enough of them could. Perhaps this is an extension of the MFD rule:

If ships have MFD programs running in linked mode, then you can group their weapons into batteries.

Perhaps that's less efficient than grouping batteries on the same ship. If 4 ships (perhaps with only one battery each) group to the next damage level, then four of the patrol ships above could link together and bear one 4-4-4 battery.

Likewise, a "squadron" of 64 of them (we're up to 19,200 total tons now) could bear one 6-6-6 battery.
 
Ummm remember that FF&S uses damage = square root(energy imparted) so to double your "factor" you would need 4x the weapons, plus an additional factor for dispersion.

If you quadruple the power of a single weapon, then it's energy on target quadruples. If you fire four weapons at a single target then you only quadruple the energy if all four weapons hit the same spot this means that the kind of thing that Robject is discussing will have fairly severe TL effects, since hitting with a "synthetic emmitter array" at LS distances is not[/I] a trivial task.

Robject you *really* don't want to get into grouping weapons fire from seperate ships. I'll say that this is a Bad Idea and leave it at that for now.

In any case, if you want "heavy hitting power" you are probably best off building a single large weapons bay at low TLs. At higher TL's the choice between lots of small weapons or a few bigger ones will get a bit trickier (the power distribution will "flatten" out and approach the effectiveness of a single emitter) but I'm still trying to figure out the details on what that dispersion curve should look like.

There should also be some game side effects: if you "hit" with a low TL synthetic array you will probably also generate "secondary" hits with the beams that were close enough to hit the target, but not "on target" to increase the damage factor. Think of this like a shotgun: at close range there is a big punch, but as range increases you are being hit with a swarm of small pellets. If you can magnetize the shot, then you will approach the effect of a slug, but with poor magnetization you will get a central "slug" and some shot dispersal: the TL effects how "coherent" the slug is.

A significant factor in choosing the "battery of little weapons" is that this will significantly increase your point defence capability and alow you to engage "soft" targets (like pirates or privateers) with a few more options than "vapourize or let them escape" You also get options like increasing the coverage (effectively ROF to offset distance penalties) by decreasing penetration ("demagnetize" the shot and you get a wider spray, which means you are more likely to score *some* damage)

Anyway, bact to the grind...


Scott Martin
 
Some random thoughts on this.

Three types of weapon mount

turret - point defence and anti-small ship (by which I mean less than 1000t)

bay - anti-capital ship weaponry

spinal - a fixed mount weapon whose power varies by the size of the ship it is designed for.

Surface area should limit weapon mounts available - so as ships get bigger the proportion of weapons carried decreases and it becomes more effective to use bays/spinals than turret mounts (a good way to limit the number of weapons and therefore to hit rolls).

I really like the way GT:ISW handles max. no. of turrets...
 
Regarding 'linking' ships together: I don't see it as being very important, so to ignore it would only streamline the rules.

Regarding FFS, power, and damage, that makes sense. I'm re-borrowing a copy of FFS to skim over the relevant bits. Also, I like the idea that coherence increases with higher TLs.

Your comment about low TL arrays (aren't they 'batteries'?) makes me think about the difference between pulse lasers and beam lasers.

I also like your thoughts about decreasing pen to increase range. I'll have to re-dig-up my notes on focal size, range, and energy.
 
Here's a laser that Ditzie designed.

HI Gentlemen,

Here's something to contribute to a modular component concept.

I was directed to a nice CT-style 800t yacht recently, and thought it needed a weapon. So I started with a lovely T4 Gunsmith spreadsheet and came up with a laser large enough to mount on the craft.

Then I dumbed down the numbers until I could present the weapon in CT-friendly detail. The result was very nice.

It's a TL15 design, using a soft X ray and a 20cm focal diameter lens. Its range is about twenty thousnd km. It requires 4 EPs to fire, and supposedly generates 1000Mj.

It's a hair under 18m long, and displaces 5 tons.

It costs MCr25.
 
If a cute little table is great for calculating jump drives, m drives, and power plants... wouldn't they be a good idea for space combat? The idea should be to eliminate the learning curve and the hassle so that people actually play the game.

Maybe you'd have weapon rating going across the top... and target range/size? going down the side. If you could have a cute little rule for combining attacks from different ships you can speed up play even more.

Ships can have additional ratings that provide special bonuses. The armor and maneuver ratings provide some sort of saving throw against the attack. Each unit should have a simple record sheet that contains all the info you need.


Or maybe you could go the traditional CRT wargame route and sum attack factors... then divide by defense rating to find the strength of the attack. Roll to find the number of hits and/or criticals. Ships then have various saving throws against different attacks and crits depending on their design.
 
^Agreed, for me less is more in this case.
When it comes to space combat there could be two levels of resolution.

High: with all the detail and miniatures and vectors or whatnot.
Low: an abstracted system that allows combat to be resolved quickly.
 
Maybe this ability to link ship's fire together would be represented by the "Fleet Tactics" skill? Higher skill levels allowing a character to coordinate more ships. This isn't just a computer thing. Where the ships will move to, when they fire, etc, will all be part of the Squadron work. Sounds like Fleet Tactics to me...
 
So this is a thread about LBB-2 not HG right?

Why has this topic wandered into fleet actions? I believe that there is a HG thread already started by robject on this very board...

Scott Martin
 
Guilty. It's my fault. As several folks have already noted, any enhancement of Book 2 is going to cause it to blend with High Guard in some way. But yes, Book 2 has nothing to do with dreadnoughts and cruisers. Its realm is mainly in small civilian, mercenary, and corporate starships, probably fading into High Guard when we get to kiloton escorts.

EDIT

By the bye, from the new T5 Naval Architecture topic in the Moot, it becomes apparent that "armor" is most likely a device for ships of the line, rather than any old fool with a starship. My first reaction to that is relief, since that means that all or nearly all "Book 2" starships are unarmored by definition.

As some have pointed out, any Book 2 hulls that might be able to have any noticeable armor (maybe multi-kiloton hulls, and maybe not) can be added to the short "standard hulls list".
 
LBB2 combat for T5 should be part of the rpg rather than a tabletop wargame - it should focus on the PC's ship(s) and be fairly small scale IMHO.

Ship combat, and vehicle combat, should be recognisable from the personal combat rules rather than learning a whole new system - the ideal would be for them to scale together.

Fleet level, and large ship combat, can probably be left to a supplement, but it too should scale from the PC level game.

I've thought for a while now that PC scale ship combat should have the same exceitement to it that personal combat does - perhaps its time to look at how ships are described and how damage is allocated. I'd quite like to see damage dice for ship weapons, and ships rated a bit more like characters...
 
Taking Sigg's post into consideration, here's things I can think of that would allow players to have an input into small-scale ship combat. Note that I haven't read the RPSCS lately.

Initiative A gunner's skills could allow him to fire his turret(s) first.

Tactics A good pilot can effectively trade off maneuverability for agility in out-guessing the opponents fire dispersal pattern (or whatever).

Computer A good programmer can wage electronic warfare against opponents, with jammers, bitcasters, sensor enhancements, prediction programs, and what-have-you. Perhaps lends an interactive quality to computer rules.

Overdrive A good engineer can tweak an occasional extra G out of the M-drive, or provide a surge of power to a laser turret. Or fix things damaged by opponents (or due to him pushing the ship systems too far).


Edit

Here's something Marc sent that is germane to the idea:

Remember the Trades? These should come into play in how damage works:


Electronics. Countered by Virus. EMP. Radiation.
Fluidics.
Gravitics.
Magnetics.
Mechanics. Blast. Impact.
Photonics. Blast. Impact.
Programming. Data casters. Virus.
Craftsman.
 
By robject
“My first reaction to that is relief, since that means that all or nearly all "Book 2" starships are unarmored by definition.”

Why relief? As a small ship universe heretic I might have to get huffy here. An armored small ship will not have that much effect in the big ship universe. An 800 ton Merc. Cruiser will still be toast no matter how much it armors up if it runs into a BB-12. No reason to disturb the captain during his evening brandy and cigar over an 800 ton ship?
 
Some blending with HG is inevitable. Traveller was cutting edge in 1977, a little expansion and updating is necessary and healthy.

I think what we Book 2 partisans are rooting for is.

Simplicity. Plug and play drives and other components.
Small scale. PC scale ships and limited numbers of weapons.
Character influence. Opportunities for PCs to influence the outcome of the battle.

What I am not sure about is the combat mechanics. What system do we the (Book 2) heretics support?
 
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