GT, at least the GT3 Core, is Loren's ATU.
GT (G3e), as expanded is divergent on a lot of niggling details from canonical sources, details that would predate the change point. (Like the Addaxur nonsense.)
Behind the Claw
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
GT, at least the GT3 Core, is Loren's ATU.
GT (G3e), as expanded is divergent on a lot of niggling details from canonical sources, details that would predate the change point. (Like the Addaxur nonsense.)
Britti_Lover
SOC-10
"Last quotes of Marc on canon exclude GT in entirety.
Canon is CT, MT, TNE, T4; T5 will be. MGT might be."
Whoa - lets set the record straight here.....
GT is an Alternate Traveller Universe (ATU) -- where the Emperior did not die.
NO VIRUS - none of that! ATU's - even official ones are not part of the OTU story line. And OTU is CT, MT, TNE, T4 and T5.
I've heard that MGT is an ATU as well and as such is not Canon either.
Myself, I'd use ATU stuff if its good - but if you are writing an OTU story - stick to information gathered from CT, MT, TNE, T4 and T5.
Canon is CT, MT, TNE, T4; T5 will be. MGT might be."
Whoa - lets set the record straight here.....
GT is an Alternate Traveller Universe (ATU) -- where the Emperior did not die.
NO VIRUS - none of that! ATU's - even official ones are not part of the OTU story line. And OTU is CT, MT, TNE, T4 and T5.
I've heard that MGT is an ATU as well and as such is not Canon either.
Myself, I'd use ATU stuff if its good - but if you are writing an OTU story - stick to information gathered from CT, MT, TNE, T4 and T5.
According to the people who are working with him today, it's not that simple. Certainly I know for a fact that those who worked on GT material were required to pay a great deal of attention to previously published material from earlier versions.
No argument there. I don't think you will be a able to find anyone who has claimed that the Emperor died and the Virus got released (or will be released, ever) in the GTU. And even material set after the Change Point allows one to infer quite a lot about the OTU.
Unlees, of course, the history of said alternate TU is supposedly identical to that of the OTU up to a Change Point from which they began diverting. In that case, historical information about the GT universe is canonical for the OTU.
Some of it is. The ship size limitation from early CT is not canon. The jump drives from MT are not canon. The maneuver drives from TNE are not canon. The information that the Rule of Man reached TL 15 from T4 is not canon. That the Darrian sun destabilized in -927 is not canon. That the Darrians and Sword Worlds fought their wars over the Cunnonic worlds is not canon.
That's news to me.
I prefer sticking to whatever makes for the most self-consistent and playable universe.
Hans
Why is that? Is it because the material came from magazine articles? Or the material was not written by Marc Miller? I'm confused by the term "early CT" I guess.
Hero Traveller wasn't announced yet when last Marc announced what was canonical. But, it's pretty clear that it isn't canonical, either.
No, it's because it was superceded by newer material (Book 2 limits ship size to 5000T, High Guard allows up to 1,000,000T), deliberately changed and then changed back/ignored (MT jump drives, TNE maneuver drives), or contradicted other canonical material (RoM technology, Darrian sun, Cunnonic vs. Entropic worlds).
The last part can be especially tricky, because TPTB hardly ever let us know which canonical statements aren't.
Hans
Shonner,
First, canon accreted, it was not centrally planned. It was a lot of people writing a lot of things over a lot time without much fact checking going on. GDW was interested in producing gaming materials and not in producing a completely internally consistent universe. Using a rough analogy, they weren't going to sweat over the threads on the screws in a closet door hinge when there was still an entire house to build.
Second, when Traveller began in 1977, the term canon wasn't even used in the way we use it now. No one knew that RPG settings would eventually out sell RPG rules or that GMs and players would want heavily detailed settings with high levels of internal consistency. How we use RPG materials and what we need from RPG materials wasn't foreseen.
This means that a lot of stuff was written that didn't jibe with stuff that was written before. This also means that a some of the things that were written didn't exactly fit the setting either. Making things even screwier, there are things that were deliberately overwritten too! So we end up with things in otherwise canonical books that contradict each other, things that have to be ignored, and things that no longer are true.
Han's mention of the Darrian's sun destabilizing is a good example of things that contradict each other. If you read all the passages in CT and MT that mention the date at which that event occurred, you'll end up with three (or four?) different years. Obviously, it didn't happen three (or four?) different times, so all those dates but one are wrong. Someone simply didn't check what had been written previously carefully enough.
The jump torpedoes in A:4 Leviathan are a good example of things that don't fit the setting. Their existence contradicts the setting's assumptions regarding the minimum size of jump capable craft. GMs can come up with all sorts of explanations that allow them to keep jump torps in their personal Traveller Universes but, as far as the Official Traveller Universe is concerned, jump torps do not exist. Despite jump torps being in an otherwsie canonical book, they are ignored for the OTU setting.
LBB:2's hull limitations for maneuver and jump drives is a good example of things that have been overwritten. When you use LBB:2 starships built on certain hulls can only have so much thrust or jump so far because the drives you're allowed to use in them are limited. That lasted only two years from 1977 to 1979 when High Guard came out and the hull limitations were overwritten. Again, GMs can still use those limits in their own TUs but the limits to do not apply in the OTU.
A lot of what sour, old, minutae obsessed, poops like myself talk about is just what published Traveller bits fit into the canonical setting, just what bits do not fit the canonical setting, and just what plausible explanations we can craft to fit more bits into the canonical setting.
Regards,
Bill
Makes sense. Back then, I thought of High Guard compared to Book 2 the same way I thought of AD&D compared to D&D. No one knew then that the timeline would become so important 30 years later. We just assumed it would be IY 1106 + 30 or so. And anything before 1106 would just be considered ancient history rather than actual eras to for us to role-play in, and thus shouldn't be altered.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Just to be pedantic 
jump torpedos were in the original CT rules - hence they were implied to be in the 'OTU' of the time. Leviathan was written using the original rules and setting assumptions hence the inclusion of jump torpedos.
The OTU of the early adventures is completely different to the OTU that came later.
Here's a heracy for you - there is and never has been an OTU. It's a sandbox
jump torpedos were in the original CT rules - hence they were implied to be in the 'OTU' of the time. Leviathan was written using the original rules and setting assumptions hence the inclusion of jump torpedos.The OTU of the early adventures is completely different to the OTU that came later.
Here's a heracy for you - there is and never has been an OTU. It's a sandbox
And then the rules were revised, after which jump torpedoes were no longer in the OTU of that and any subsequent time, by implication or otherwise. That's how revision works.Just to be pedantic
True, but so what? Even if the 1st ed. rules were in force at the time Leviathan was written (IIRC they weren't), they are no longer in force today. Hence Bill's statement is absolutely correct.
It could hardly be otherwise, given the way the OTU was developed.
Hans
Just to be pedantic
The OTU of the early adventures is completely different to the OTU that came later.
Here's a heracy for you - there is and never has been an OTU. It's a sandbox
Heresy, Sigg, not heracy (which implies an angry greek goddess...).
I'll go further; I'll postulate that in fact, there are 5 OTUs... Prototraveller, CT, MT, TNE, T4, and then there are 4 major ATUs: GT, T20, HT, and GTIW...
... and I'm undecided as to MGT.
Why? because each universe operates under different paradigms of "what a normal person can do" and "what the technology can do"...
A fallacy.
Why? Because different rules sets that describe the very same universe (like, for instance, Empire of the Petal Throne, Swords & Glory, Gardasiyal: Adventures in Tekumel, and Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne) will inevitably present variant simulations that operate under different paradigms of "what a normal person can do" and "what the technology can do". Come to that, no game system purporting to present rules for what goes on in the real universe has ever managed to cover everything a normal person can do. Why would anyone expect Traveller to do so?
The fact that different versions of Traveller presents different oprational paradigms is therefore not proof that they are representations of different universes rather than different representations of the same universe; whereas the fact that they have the exact same history is strong evidence that they are, if fact, supposed to be the same universe. As is the fact that the OTU is always referred to as the OTU.
Hans
I'm not speaking for Marc here; I'm drawing from personal experience and observation to infer basic facts to assist. If I do speak for Marc online, I'll preface the post with "Marc is asking..." or "Marc wants...", or something similar. Rob Eaglestone also does this.
That doesn't mean Rob or I have any special status. If I was writing material for the Spinward Marches, I'd probably have Hans review it before giving it to Marc for review, because I trust his knowledge of things I've forgotten.
So, bearing all of that in mind, here's some simple facts about canon:
1. It is, at any given moment, what Marc decides.
2. Marc reserves the right to change his mind.
3. The GURPS Traveller universe (GTU?) and the Official Traveller Universe overlap; exactly where they overlap is questionable, depending on who's asking the questions.
4. The precedent of "mostly recently published source" applies, unless that newer source is wrong about something; it happens.
5. Never, ever assume that current licensees are not canon; rather, current licensees are always canon, unless they print something wrong.
6. Marc decides who is wrong.
7. There's no order to the six rules above.
That's pretty much it. On an average day of research for Marc, I'll start with MGT (if possible), then GT (including IW), then TNE (because I have to, not because I want to), then MT, then CT materials. Within those materials, the primary publisher is the first source, but any licensee could be a secondary source. There are probably *golden* sources, but nothing is perfect.
Oh, and yes, 1248 goes in there somewhere. I wouldn't consider it a primary source, but definitely a secondary source.
Heck, there's even a couple of Judges Guild items Marc mentions from time to time. Admittedly, I haven't dug much out of the JG and Paranoia Press materials for Marc, but I've got them to refer to.
And even HIWG docs and fanzines COULD be a source if it's an idea that Marc likes. For example, I pay very close attention to HIWG docs written by Clay Bush on subjects. And I've got the TML and Xboat archives setup as searchable because they have clues to things I don't remember.
I cannot think of a single source that would be outright rejected with no consideration at all. My own timeline isn't a source; it's a list of sources.
So, the moral is, don't throw rocks at other Traveller settings. We're all in the same tent, even if we imagine we're not.
Some things Marc has repeatedly said are NOT canon:
1. Anything under 100 tons jumping. 101-ton jump torpedoes might work, but 99-ton jump torpedoes simply don't.
2. DGP's Aslan art has the hands/paws wrong. I've repeatedly had this explained to me, but I still don't picture it properly.
The original question was "Will Behind the Claw ever be reprinted?" SJG doesn't seem to have been interested in the numerous proposals offered, but that's Loren's call. MGT's Spinward Marches is a solid basic source, but certainly lacks many details. Then again, a single book with every canon fact about the Marches would be an arduous task (I should know, I tried that once). And imagine what kind of postings we'd see on CotI about the stuff that book missed... Good men have despaired over less.
Hope this helps some...
That doesn't mean Rob or I have any special status. If I was writing material for the Spinward Marches, I'd probably have Hans review it before giving it to Marc for review, because I trust his knowledge of things I've forgotten.
So, bearing all of that in mind, here's some simple facts about canon:
1. It is, at any given moment, what Marc decides.
2. Marc reserves the right to change his mind.
3. The GURPS Traveller universe (GTU?) and the Official Traveller Universe overlap; exactly where they overlap is questionable, depending on who's asking the questions.
4. The precedent of "mostly recently published source" applies, unless that newer source is wrong about something; it happens.
5. Never, ever assume that current licensees are not canon; rather, current licensees are always canon, unless they print something wrong.
6. Marc decides who is wrong.
7. There's no order to the six rules above.
That's pretty much it. On an average day of research for Marc, I'll start with MGT (if possible), then GT (including IW), then TNE (because I have to, not because I want to), then MT, then CT materials. Within those materials, the primary publisher is the first source, but any licensee could be a secondary source. There are probably *golden* sources, but nothing is perfect.
Oh, and yes, 1248 goes in there somewhere. I wouldn't consider it a primary source, but definitely a secondary source.
Heck, there's even a couple of Judges Guild items Marc mentions from time to time. Admittedly, I haven't dug much out of the JG and Paranoia Press materials for Marc, but I've got them to refer to.
And even HIWG docs and fanzines COULD be a source if it's an idea that Marc likes. For example, I pay very close attention to HIWG docs written by Clay Bush on subjects. And I've got the TML and Xboat archives setup as searchable because they have clues to things I don't remember.
I cannot think of a single source that would be outright rejected with no consideration at all. My own timeline isn't a source; it's a list of sources.
So, the moral is, don't throw rocks at other Traveller settings. We're all in the same tent, even if we imagine we're not.
Some things Marc has repeatedly said are NOT canon:
1. Anything under 100 tons jumping. 101-ton jump torpedoes might work, but 99-ton jump torpedoes simply don't.
2. DGP's Aslan art has the hands/paws wrong. I've repeatedly had this explained to me, but I still don't picture it properly.
The original question was "Will Behind the Claw ever be reprinted?" SJG doesn't seem to have been interested in the numerous proposals offered, but that's Loren's call. MGT's Spinward Marches is a solid basic source, but certainly lacks many details. Then again, a single book with every canon fact about the Marches would be an arduous task (I should know, I tried that once). And imagine what kind of postings we'd see on CotI about the stuff that book missed... Good men have despaired over less.
Hope this helps some...
Thanks Spin! That brought tears to my eyes, I laughed so hard.
o: so what was his story?