Beasts in Personal Combat question

[OjnoTheRed]

I think I may have missed it in the rules, and I need to appeal to the forum's patience.

My next session involves landing on Pysadi and a key encounter is in the wilderness with Beasts including a combat sequence.

How do Beasts take damage in combat? The "10 points and you're out" rule surely doesn't apply to all Beasts regardless of shape and size?

If there is a sentence I have missed, would very much appreciate a shove in the right direction.

 

[Epee]

The general consensus seems to be the beast's size + strength = hit dice. If your adventurers are going to be faced with large herds or hives of beasts then your might want to figure an average and extrapolate from 10 points being a human.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Thank you - I will play with that.

 

[Timerover51]

My formulas for computing damage hit points for Beasts are as follows. I apologize for using pounds, but that is the basic unit which I used in working this up.

I assume an average mass for a human as 150 pounds.

For creatures up to 400 pounds, take the square root of the animals mass divided by 150, multiple by the average human damage points to get animal damage points. This does assume adult creatures and no significant size differential between male and female of the species.

For creatures up to 1600 pounds, take the cube root of the animals mass divided by 400 and multiply by twice the average human damage, again with above qualification.

For creatures above 1600 pounds in mass, I take that on a case by case basis. If the creature is a carnivore, damage points may increase by up to 50% over computed damage points. If an herbivore, damage points may be reduced by up to 50%, based on the other animal characteristics. African Cape Buffalo are treated as carnivores for the basis of damage computation.

Immediate incapacitation requires the total damage points to be scored with one hit. If less than the required damage points are scored in one hit, then for incapacitation, 50% more damage points must be scored.

For example, a 400 pound lion has a base damage point of 20, with a bonus of 50% for carnivore, bringing it to 30. For immediate incapacitation, 30 damage points must be scored on a single hit. If less then 30 damage points are scored, then incapacitation requires a total of 45 damage points to be scored.

This does assume that the animal is a mammal or similar type of creature. Reptiles require more damage to incapacitate, and very large creatures such as elephants (or equivalent, say Mammoth), dinosaurs, whales, etc. have minimum damage points to be met or damage is ignored. This avoids the possibility of killing a whale with a .22 rifle.

 

[DonM]

I've been using the SIZ + STR trick, but timerover's suggestion will need to be checked.

I was going to quietly try and get this answered by Marc in the "personal combat" answers, as beasts are generally what I throw for testing.

 

[Timerover51]

I've been using the SIZ + STR trick, but timerover's suggestion will need to be checked.

I was going to quietly try and get this answered by Marc in the "personal combat" answers, as beasts are generally what I throw for testing.

Basically, Don, this is based on a lot of research into hunting of various size and degree of toughness creatures, plus some extrapolations from metabolic requirements, and some testing of my own.

The carnivore-herbivore difference is based on studies of the size of creatures that mammal carnivores will tackle alone, with the maximum difference being a factor of 3, but with the large herbivores capable of taking out the carnivore in what amounts to an even fight. Generally, a carnivore can take a herbivore of its own weight fairly easily. Exceptions to this are the wolverine and the cheetah. Wolverines will tackle successfully creatures up to 6 times their size, while cheetahs focus only on creatures of their mass or lighter, as they cannot afford any significant damage.

 

[aramis]

Basically, Don, this is based on a lot of research into hunting of various size and degree of toughness creatures, plus some extrapolations from metabolic requirements, and some testing of my own.

The carnivore-herbivore difference is based on studies of the size of creatures that mammal carnivores will tackle alone, with the maximum difference being a factor of 3, but with the large herbivores capable of taking out the carnivore in what amounts to an even fight. Generally, a carnivore can take a herbivore of its own weight fairly easily. Exceptions to this are the wolverine and the cheetah. Wolverines will tackle successfully creatures up to 6 times their size, while cheetahs focus only on creatures of their mass or lighter, as they cannot afford any significant damage.

Cheetah have been seen ganging up for larger prey. Some stable groups of sibling males have been filmed hunting more like lions or wolves - one flushes, the other two attack and slow. All three jointly bring it down.

Wolverines have shown to routinely predate critters 6x their mass... bu
Some wolverines have been known to not back down from omnivores - namely Grizzly bears - up to 10x their own mass. They've also been known, when particularly hungry, to tackle full grown moose (also more than 10x their own mass). And wolves, too.

 

[Supplement Four]

For creatures up to 1600 pounds, take the cube root of the animals mass divided by 400 and multiply by twice the average human damage, again with above qualification.

This is not a comment on the quality of the rules timerover51 has suggested, but I will say that I'm of the school of thought that game rules should always be simple. Once you pull out the calculator and start using the cube root of anything, you've passed the point of simple.

Again, to be clear, I'm not criticizing timerover51's rule at all. In fact, I've barely skimmed it. I'm just commenting on his method of getting there.

 

[Timerover51]

Cheetah have been seen ganging up for larger prey. Some stable groups of sibling males have been filmed hunting more like lions or wolves - one flushes, the other two attack and slow. All three jointly bring it down.

I have not heard of that behavior, I was going by the behavior of the cheetahs studied by Shaller in the Serengeti in Africa.

Wolverines have shown to routinely predate critters 6x their mass... bu
Some wolverines have been known to not back down from omnivores - namely Grizzly bears - up to 10x their own mass. They've also been known, when particularly hungry, to tackle full grown moose (also more than 10x their own mass). And wolves, too.

I am aware of that, and normally the Grizzles back down. I was trying to keep the post from getting too long. I did not include pack animals, as they need a different formula, although the typical pack animals presently on Earth are the Wolves, some coyote, wild (feral) dogs, Cape Hunting Dogs, and the Hyena. I am not sure if some of the larger dinosaurs hunted in packs as is alleged for the Allosaur.

There are reports of cooperative attacks by killer whales on larger whales as well, but as those are sea mammals, the likelihood of characters encountering that type of situation is lower. Sheer body size puts the larger sea creatures into separate categories. If you allow for something like a Liopleurodon, then the damage points should be extremely high, with heavy weapons being required.

It would also depend if you allow for laser weapons and how much damage they would do against animals with a thick hide or sea mammals with a coating of blubber.

 

[aramis]

I mentioned wolves as prey for wolverines. As in, a wolverine pair has been seen attacking a pack of wolves not far from here. Two wolverines, 6 wolves. 2 survivors, none of them canids. Same pair was suspected of killing a pack of feral dogs. (It was reported to the media as a bear attack, in order to avoid panic.)

I see 2-3 wolverines a year within a mile of my suburban residence...

 

[Epee]

This is not a comment on the quality of the rules timerover51 has suggested, but I will say that I'm of the school of thought that game rules should always be simple. Once you pull out the calculator and start using the cube root of anything, you've passed the point of simple.

Again, to be clear, I'm not criticizing timerover51's rule at all. In fact, I've barely skimmed it. I'm just commenting on his method of getting there.

True, but timeover51's idea could easily be converted into a table for critter creation and those already designed should have hit dice mentioned in any case so adventure gameplay wouldn't suffer.

 

[robject]

This is not a comment on the quality of the rules timerover51 has suggested, but I will say that I'm of the school of thought that game rules should always be simple. Once you pull out the calculator and start using the cube root of anything, you've passed the point of simple.

Again, to be clear, I'm not criticizing timerover51's rule at all. In fact, I've barely skimmed it. I'm just commenting on his method of getting there.

I like to think that I am in that sort of camp, myself*.

So far, I have equated Beast STR = Hit Points.


* Make simple things simple, and complicated things possible.

 

[Timerover51]

I like to think that I am in that sort of camp, myself*.

So far, I have equated Beast STR = Hit Points.


* Make simple things simple, and complicated things possible.

I have a tendency to go for more realism and simulation verses gaming, probably from my background. Although when it comes to space combat, I go for the simple and deadly, like either Warp War or Imperium.

As for the formula, I should have reviewed it a bit. It is actually based on the standard of a 100 pound wolf having the same hit points as the average 150 pound man. If you want to use it, substitute 100 pounds for 150 pounds.

Also, when it comes to putting it into practice, I work up the possible animals in the area, using some of the ecology atlases and the Facts on File Encyclopedia of Mammals as the basis, using what biome or biomes occur in the area, and then have a standard animal and damage points. Depending on the size, a second die roll gives some variance, so not all animals take the same damage. What I end up with is a table for a given biome and area, with standard animals having a standard damage point total, which can be varied by a die roll. If there is a noticeable size differential between males and females, that is put in a well.

Then work up the encounter table for the area, roll for what animal is encountered, check damage table for animal and if any adjustments are needed, then go to combat. As indicated, very large animals have a minimum damage threshold, and may be resistant to some types of weapons. An example of that would be a well-fed polar bear being fired at with a laser carbine. The fur and fat would act as Ablate armor, which the carbine would hurt enough to get the bear a trifle upset.