Bang Damage

[Supplement Four]

I'm trying to get my head wrapped around Bang damage. You T5 players out there...care to speculate?

What is Bang damage, mechanically? When a hit is made with a weapon that does Bang damage, it can turn the target deaf for a limited time.

Bang-2 damage means that you roll 2D vs. any Soundproofing the target may have. The number of points that penetrate are the number of combat rounds that the target is deaf.

How, do you think does that work?





I would think that the weapon would be louder at the firing end, rather than at the target, but this type of damage is different somehow.

Are the bullets designed to make loud pops when they hit a target?

That's kinda interesting.

Or, maybe Bang rounds are another way to express explosive rounds? That would mean that you always have Blast damage, too, wouldn't it?



Speculation on why Bang damage is caused?

 

[pendragonman]

Flash-Bang grenades. Bright flash causing temporary blindness loud bang causes temporary deafness.

 

[Supplement Four]

Flash-Bang grenades. Bright flash causing temporary blindness loud bang causes temporary deafness.

Cool thought. Except this ammo doesn't have the flash part--just the sound.

I like it, though.

 

[Reban]

This was raised way back but didn't get answered.

By common sense if a rifle has Bang and Bullet damage you'd think the Bang actually happens at the muzzle of the rifle and should be applied to the firer. I don't see how a projectile, even a supersonic bullet with a "crack" could cause damage to the hearing of the person it strikes.

It might just at a stretch represent the clang as a projectile strikes armor, but I kinda can't see that applying universally to any combat situation.

But for other weapons like grenades as Pendragonman points out the Bang originates with the detonation point. It represents sonic damage. Interesting point there is that in vacuum or non standard atmospheres should Bang remain the same?

I think the simplest fix would be to remove Bang from smallarms.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think the simplest fix would be to remove Bang from smallarms.

Yes, I was confused. I was looking at the special effects step of GunMaker (page 254) and saw that revolvers, rifles, and shotguns are designated as Loud, which means that they should do at least Bang-1 damage unless fitted with a silencer*.

Yet, looking a the weapons in the book, I don't see a single shotgun or revolver that does Bang damage.

So, is the Loud tag optional? Or, is this an example of broken GunMaker? Or broken output?



*And, this doesn't make sense. Bang damage delivers the damage at the target, not the firing end of the weapon. Yet, page 254 says that a silencer will silence Bang-1 weapons?

If there is no Bang damage applied to the shooter, then there's nothing to silence. And, a silencer is not going to effect the noise a round makes when it hits the target.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

I had read "bang" damage being concussion grenades and the like. In relation to rifles, the implication is that the rifle has an RPG launcher on it and is included in the effects of the weapon. Hence a silenced rifle may launch grenades / fire bullets in a quiet way, allowing it to not give away surprise and/or location of the firer, but the person at the other end is still subject to bang damage.

This relates to the abstraction of the T5 combat system as it stands: we don't bother tracking ammunition types, shots per round and blah blah blah. We just assign a difficulty for hitting a target and a separate process for damaging the target. We don't care if the rifle fires bullets, grenades or both; it's the effect of the weapon we are ultimately interested in.

 

[Ulsyus]

What is Bang damage, mechanically? When a hit is made with a weapon that does Bang damage, it can turn the target deaf for a limited time.

I would think that the weapon would be louder at the firing end, rather than at the target, but this type of damage is different somehow.

Are the bullets designed to make loud pops when they hit a target?

I read Bang damage in the same way as Pendragonman, rather than as a standard function from a slugthrower weapon. That said, if someone was too close to any kind of weapon system that uses chemically propelled rounds, I'll apply a damage rating for the impact on their ears and a period of deafness and confusion if the situation warrants, ie: don't stand too close to a firing 155mm gun without hearing protection.

If there is no Bang damage applied to the shooter, then there's nothing to silence. And, a silencer is not going to effect the noise a round makes when it hits the target.

I see Bang damage as being greater than the noise generated by a CPR. Additionally, the range for that type of damage would drop off fairly quickly but be dependent on the damage done at the "point of impact/aim".

 

[Supplement Four]

I had read "bang" damage being concussion grenades and the like. In relation to rifles, the implication is that the rifle has an RPG launcher on it and is included in the effects of the weapon. Hence a silenced rifle may launch grenades / fire bullets in a quiet way, allowing it to not give away surprise and/or location of the firer, but the person at the other end is still subject to bang damage.

This relates to the abstraction of the T5 combat system as it stands: we don't bother tracking ammunition types, shots per round and blah blah blah. We just assign a difficulty for hitting a target and a separate process for damaging the target. We don't care if the rifle fires bullets, grenades or both; it's the effect of the weapon we are ultimately interested in.

Do revolvers and shotguns also have integral grenade launchers? Those are listed as having the Loud tag, too, which indicates Bang-1 damage.

And, why would an Assault Carbine (page 240) only do 1D or 2D damage if it's Bang-1 damage is due to a grenade explosion?-2



EDIT: Another point, that contradicts with what you suggest above: Bang-1 damage can be silenced by using a silencer. Bang-2 damage cannot be silenced in this way. This suggests that the loud sound is not from grenades.

 

[Licheking]

Well i read it a completely different way. Bang as a damage effect affects just the target and maybe those around them see later point. Loud or Very Loud are treated as Bang-1 or Bang-2 to the firer only due to the loudness of the weapon.

I also say that the Bang effects loses 1 rating for every range band away from source that it is, therefore Very Loud weapon may affect people at Range Band 1 (Bang-2) and Range band 2 (Bang-1).

A silencer then negates the Loud descriptor from the weapon it is attached too, but can't affect weapons with Very Loud descriptor.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Well i read it a completely different way. Bang as a damage effect affects just the target and maybe those around them see later point. Loud or Very Loud are treated as Bang-1 or Bang-2 to the firer only due to the loudness of the weapon.

I also say that the Bang effects loses 1 rating for every range band away from source that it is, therefore Very Loud weapon may affect people at Range Band 1 (Bang-2) and Range band 2 (Bang-1).

A silencer then negates the Loud descriptor from the weapon it is attached too, but can't affect weapons with Very Loud descriptor.

Supplement Four, as I said in the Errata Thread, I understand the problem you have raised; it would seem weapon effects (basically drawbacks of one variety or another) indicate a Revolver gets Bang-1. However, I agree with Lichekings' interpretation; Bang-1 is an effect produced by the weapon, not damage caused by it on the damage line. But you are still right to raise this in the errata thread because this needs to be clarified in the rules.

 

[Supplement Four]

I like the idea that the bang damage is for the firer. It makes more sense. And, afaIk, I've never seen it in a game where a character has to wear ear protection in order to fire his weapon.

Looking at the special effects on page 254, they're all things that effect the user, not the target.

Licheking, I think you are correct on this one!




As for the Assault Carbine on page 240, would that weapon produce Bang-1 damage on both ends? It's a rifle, so page 254 tells us that the user suffers Bang-1. But, what's different about the Assault Carbine is that Bang damage is listed (where as it is not listed for the revolver). How would Bang damage come to be listed as part of a weapon's damage line? Is there a part of GunMaker that will do that? I'm not that familiar with all of GunMaker.

 

[Reban]

In relation to rifles, the implication is that the rifle has an RPG launcher on it and is included in the effects of the weapon.

As for the Assault Carbine on page 240, would that weapon produce Bang-1 damage on both ends? It's a rifle, so page 254 tells us that the user suffers Bang-1. But, what's different about the Assault Carbine is that Bang damage is listed (where as it is not listed for the revolver). How would Bang damage come to be listed as part of a weapon's damage line? Is there a part of GunMaker that will do that? I'm not that familiar with all of GunMaker.

This is something that I dislike about the Assault descriptor. Assault adds Blast and Bang. When applied to smallarms seems to assume an integral grenade launcher but doesn't explain that anywhere, nor does it give the option of choosing between the effects to simulate choosing between the rifle and grenade launcher. Assault does say "It is characterized by an ability to hit person - size targets at moderate ranges (Range 4 = 500 meters) and by bullets and explosive projectiles." But to my mind every assault weapon shouldn't come with the ability to fire grenades in the 20mm 40mm or 60mm sizes associated with real world weapons, especialy when you notice the the Assault descriptor reduces the weapon mass by 20%.

There's an illustration somewhere that shows an assault weapon with an integral grenade launcher.

There's a simple fix I use to add grenade launchers by adding a user option of "Attachment" reducing mass by 50% to denote the stock etc. being knocked off.

Its one more thing to be looked at when GunMaker is reviewed after Personal Combat is fixed.

 

[Supplement Four]

But to my mind every assault weapon shouldn't come with the ability to fire grenades...

Agreed.

Plus, the damage produced by the weapon doesn't support the idea that a grenade was used. The Assault Carbine on page 240 does Bang-1, Blast-2, Bullet-1 damage.

That's not a lot of damage when compared to, say, a standard TL 9 Vacc Suit (AV 10). There's absolutely no chance to penetrate with either Blast or Bullet damage (You'd argue that Blast damage could penetrate for 1 or 2 points of damage, but this is no longer true with the newer combat rules).

A tidbit for you T5 players: Marc has come up with a very cool rule where damage is increased based on the type of attack. Thus, a burst fired at a target will do more damage than if a single shot was fired. Full Auto levied at a target will do the most damage.

And now, we're talking "penetration".

 

[Hemdian]

I also think Licheking's interpretation is essentially right. I'm not very experienced with firearms but I believe gunfire noise propagation is usually anisotropic: the sounds may be heard at greater distances in the direction of bullet travel than behind or beside the firearm. So it is possible the Bang damage comes from the firing action without deafening the firer ... but I would still expect the Bang damage to have a potentially shorter range than Bullet damage.

As for Bang damage due to Loud and VLoud effects, I sort of agree with Licheking here as well regarding dissipation rates, even though this Bang damage is isotropic (ie. spherical). But rather than minus one per range band I'd say R1=100%, R2=50% (round down), and none thereafter ... here that works out the same.

Perhaps it's really simple. Perhaps both types of Bang damage dissipate the same way and the only difference is one type is isotropic and the other is anisotropic?

But it's difficult to comment because most of only know the original T5 rules. There may be changes in PCS that will change the way we see Bang damage.

 

[Supplement Four]

So, if Licheking is correct (and I do think that he is), then every revolver, shotgun, carbine, and rifle a character uses will make the character deaf for a number of rounds unless ear protection is used.

But...it also says that RAM GL's are Loud, too. From the source?

I've never been around one in real life, but I've played games where an attempt at reality is made. Don't real GL's just make a "thump" sound when they are launched--with the big nose at the target end when the grenade explodes?

It doesn't seem right that a RAM GL be loud from the shooter's perspective (so much so that it does Bang-1 damage to the shooter).

What about AT Rocket launchers? Are they as loud as a shotgun when fired?

 

[rancke]

So, if Licheking is correct (and I do think that he is), then every revolver, shotgun, carbine, and rifle a character uses will make the character deaf for a number of rounds unless ear protection is used.

I thought the reason for ear protection was the risk of long-term damage. That is, unless you hold your revolver up next to your ear, you don't have any deafening effects, but do it often enough and you MAY suffer hearing impairment. I certainly don't recall any mention of deaf gunslingers in any of the Westerns I've read.

Note that my knowledge of firearms is 100% vicarious, so I could be completely wrong. But really, Traveller is Science Fiction. Who wants to fudge around with rules for ear protection and hearing impairment just to fire a bog-ordinary automatic?

Certainly not me.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

Who wants to fudge around with rules for ear protection and hearing impairment just to fire a bog-ordinary automatic?

Certainly not me.

Yes, and the rule is a bit overkill, I think. Policemen don't wear ear-plugs. Neither do soldiers in the field, as far as I know. Those boys depicted in Black Hawk Down had some pretty hefty weapons, and they didn't wear ear protection.

I think the Bang-1 damage for a revolver or shotgun is probably a bit much.

 

[Reban]

So, if Licheking is correct (and I do think that he is), then every revolver, shotgun, carbine, and rifle a character uses will make the character deaf for a number of rounds unless ear protection is used.

But...it also says that RAM GL's are Loud, too. From the source?

I've never been around one in real life, but I've played games where an attempt at reality is made. Don't real GL's just make a "thump" sound when they are launched--with the big nose at the target end when the grenade explodes?

It doesn't seem right that a RAM GL be loud from the shooter's perspective (so much so that it does Bang-1 damage to the shooter).

What about AT Rocket launchers? Are they as loud as a shotgun when fired?

Well a RAM grenade is a lot like a firecracker as its propelled forward with a rocket charge.

RPG-7s which aren't RAM grenades are also loud because the firing charge is large. 40mm launchers usually have a characteristic bloop which is loud but not painfully so.

Rocket launchers have a big blast to the rear which could be described as sonic damage which is what Bang models.

I thought the reason for ear protection was the risk of long-term damage. That is, unless you hold your revolver up next to your ear, you don't have any deafening effects, but do it often enough and you MAY suffer hearing impairment. I certainly don't recall any mention of deaf gunslingers in any of the Westerns I've read.

Note that my knowledge of firearms is 100% vicarious, so I could be completely wrong. But really, Traveller is Science Fiction. Who wants to fudge around with rules for ear protection and hearing impairment just to fire a bog-ordinary automatic?

Certainly not me.

Hans

Ear protection is used in the armed forces and civilian shooting to avoid long term damage but from experience, drawing level with or getting ahead of a colleagues muzzle will result in ringing in the ears and temporary deafness. (Yeah I'm going to suffer from my hobby in later life). But modern noise cancelling ear protection can give you normal hearing but defend your ears from very loud noises like a shot.

 

[Supplement Four]

We're not talking about using a revolver at the range. We're talking about Dirty Harry firing his magnum at some punks.

 

[Ulsyus]

So, if Licheking is correct (and I do think that he is), then every revolver, shotgun, carbine, and rifle a character uses will make the character deaf for a number of rounds unless ear protection is used.

But...it also says that RAM GL's are Loud, too. From the source?

I've never been around one in real life, but I've played games where an attempt at reality is made. Don't real GL's just make a "thump" sound when they are launched--with the big nose at the target end when the grenade explodes?

It doesn't seem right that a RAM GL be loud from the shooter's perspective (so much so that it does Bang-1 damage to the shooter).

What about AT Rocket launchers? Are they as loud as a shotgun when fired?

Firing handguns and longarms won't cause deafness from a few shots, but doing so on an indoor range will certainly cause temporary effects, and lots of shots outdoors could do the same.

Not sure about RAM GLs, but I imagine they're the same as an AT round, though those effects vary by type. A 66mm rocket isn't too bad (not as loud as a shotgun really) but the old 84mm Carl Gustav AT weapon was pretty impressive and I never fired that that without hearing protection.

A regular GL doesn't make a lot of noise at the firing end, no issues there.

I thought the reason for ear protection was the risk of long-term damage. That is, unless you hold your revolver up next to your ear, you don't have any deafening effects, but do it often enough and you MAY suffer hearing impairment. I certainly don't recall any mention of deaf gunslingers in any of the Westerns I've read.

Hans

Spot-on. Plus the indoor range factor I mentioned above, and the need to comply with modern OHS regulations in training environments.

Yes, and the rule is a bit overkill, I think. Policemen don't wear ear-plugs. Neither do soldiers in the field, as far as I know. Those boys depicted in Black Hawk Down had some pretty hefty weapons, and they didn't wear ear protection.

I think the Bang-1 damage for a revolver or shotgun is probably a bit much.

Correct on the ear-plugs comment. Black Hawk Down does illustrate one point though - recall that one of the soldiers had his off-sider fire the LMG right next to his ear and he became deaf as a result. The effects are real enough, but the range is pretty limited.