Damage type order

[Hemdian]

Hit damage comes in multiple flavours: Pen, Frag, and all others. Pen damage doubles when applied against armour but not afterwards. Frag is the reverse. The question is: in mixed damage-type attacks, is there an order of damage application?

Suppose you have a weapon that does Burn-2 and Pen-2, and suppose you roll 7 for each. And also, suppose you are firing at a target with AR 15 armour. Pen doubles against armour, so the attack does a total of 7+(7*2)=21 points against the armour. This is enough to get through … but how much? If the armour stops regular damage first and then Pen damage, then the target takes 3 points. Alternatively, if the other way round, the target takes 6 points of damage.

So which way is it?

 

[Hemdian]

Okay, based on feedback from different places, I've put together a little tool to make calculating multi-damage-type hits in T5 a little easier.

https://hemdian.com/traveller/book1/damage-calculator/

 

[infojunky]

Upon my reading of the section I probably would start with Pen.... But there is really no guidence.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So which way is it?

I skimmed the rules; they don't say anything useful that I can find.

Looking at the weapon construction rules in B3 provides some hints, i.e. there is a definite order.

At a guess I would apply the damage dice in order with the specified type. So a weapon with H1:4 H2:Burn-2 H3:_Pen-2 (four hit dice, two of which with Burn and two with Pen) is different from a weapon with H1:4 H2:_Pen-2 H3:Burn-2. And Flux can be added to the total, distributed among the dice as you see fit?

E.g. a PGMP with H1:6 H2:_Pen-3 H3:Burn-3 rolling 1 2 3 4 5 6 would first apply 6 (1+2+3) damage with Pen, then 15 (4+5+6) damage Burn. Both damage types are stopped by regular armour (Pen doubled), so Ar=15 would use 12 pts to stop the Pen dice and reduce the first Burn die by 3. If you add flux you could add any positive total mod to a Pen die and any negative total mod to a Burn die for maximum damage?

That assumes a power level of 2, power level 3 would double damage but incur a risk of malfunction.

We also have to consider damage type: Hit, Cut, Suff, Stun, etc. (B1 p207, B3 p105):
Hit is applied once to C1, C2, or C3.
Cut is applies every round to C1, C2, or C3, but damage / 3 vs objects (B3 p170).
Suff is applies once to C3, C4, or C5, but perhaps not to objects.
Stun renders the character completely unable to take actions.


So, basically way too complicated to be actually used?

 

[Hemdian]

Going through the combat examples in T5.1 Book 1 that cover mixed damage types ...

p226 #14 appears to apply Pen damage then other 'hit' damage.

p226 #27 and p227 #13 don't seem to make sense either way.

 

[Hemdian]

So, I made a v2 version of the tool. It fixes a bug with 'Wound' damage, calculates knockdown, and now handles all the non-Ar damage types.

Check out ... https://hemdian.com/traveller/book1/damage-calculator/

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Going through the combat examples in T5.1 Book 1 that cover mixed damage types ...

p226 #14 appears to apply Pen damage then other 'hit' damage.

Yes, consistent with doing it in the stated order:

B1, p224:
Click 666666 (Fighter-1 Beams-2 Artillery-2)
Armed with LtLD-12 Lt Laser Designator -12 R=4 8.4 kg Pen-2 Burn-2 SN 11
Wearing M-7 Mesh-7 2 kg Ar=10 Ca=1 In=2

B1, p226:
14 Click’s LtLD-12 inflicts Pen-2 (6+3) and Burn -2 (5+5) against Quilt Ar=12. Pen is doubled against Armor: 6 doubled penetrates the Armor; the remaining 3 and the 10 from Burn penetrate. A hit of 10 or more puts Ay Out-Of-Action.

More surprising is:

B1, p226:
12 Don’s Mesh-7 is Ar=10. Ay’s Rifle-5 hits with Bullet-2 twice for 4 5 3 4= 16 Hits. Armor absorbs 10, and 6 penetrate to reduce Don’s End (randomly selected) from 8 to 2.

Two hits yet armour is deducted only once? It's one action I suppose?

So, attacking with a LMG Bullet-2 using Full Auto and Snap Fire, you would roll to hit thrice, each hit doing thrice the damage, for potentially up to 18 dice damage, reduced by armour once? That seems counterintuitive?

p226 #27 and p227 #13 don't seem to make sense either way.

Let's see:

B1, p226:
27 Frag-4 Bullet-2 against Quilt Ar=12. Against Bee, he rolls 20 and 4 which penetrates (12 points) and inflicts 12 hits. Bee falls Out-Of-Action. Against Dee, he rolls 15 and 6, which penetrates (12 points) and inflicts 9 hits (less than 10, so it is ignored).

Attacker:

B1, p224:
Don A88A88 (Fighter-2 Slug-2)
Armed with ACR-10 Advanced Combat Rifle-10 R=3 2.8 kg Frag-4 Bullet-2 SN 12
Wearing M-7 Mesh-7 2 kg Ar=10 Ca=1 In=2

Target:

B1, p225:
Ay, Bee, Cee, Dee, Ee, and Eff are more-or-less identi- cal, each 999999 (Fighter-2 Slug-2)
Armed with ER-4 Early Rifle -4 R=4 Cr600 6.8 kg Bullet -2 (bolt-action rifles) SN 13
Wearing Military Overcoats Q-9 Quilt-9 1 kg Cr600 Ar=12 Ca=1 In=8.

According to B1, p211 Frag and Bullet are treated the same for armour, knock down, and hit type.

Against Bee damage is rolled Frag-4 = 20 and Bullet-2 = 4, for a total of 24. Ar=12 is deducted, so 12 pts damage is inflicted.
Against Dee damage is rolled Frag-4 = 15 and Bullet-2 = 6, for a total of 21. Ar=12 is deducted, so 9 pts damage is inflicted.
With simplified damage resolution (since NPC) Bee is Out-of-action, and Dee is unaffected.

B1, p207:
HITS AGAINST CHARACTERS
Injury or Damage in excess of those stopped by Armor or Protection is applied to the Target Character.
For simplicity and efficiency, Player Characters and Non-Player Characters are handled differently.
For Non-Player Characters and Equipment, make a simple assessment of Out-Of-Action if Injury or Damage is 10+. If the damage is 9 or less, ignore it.
For Player Characters and their Equipment, assess hits against Characteristics as necessary.

Example p226 #27 seems reasonable?

B1, p227:
13 The Flyer is Ar=08. The aFMgC-10 hits with Blast-3 Frag-1 Bullet-4 for 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3= 24 Hits. Armor stops the first 8 hits, the remainder penetrates and damages one Function (2D= 9 on Table L1= Body Panels).

Attacker:

B1, p227:
Gunner 777777 Fighting-3 Slugthrower-2 SN 12
Master Sgt 898777 Slugthrower-2 Fighting-7 SN 18
Size=5. Each wears Mesh-7 Ar=10.
aFMgC-10 Anti-Flyer Machinegun Crewed -10 R=6 Cr9000 48 kg Blast-3 Frag-1 Bullet-4

Target:

B1, p227:
Light Winged Flyer-10. Speed= 8. Size = 6.
Ar=08 Ca=00 Fl=05 So=04 Ps=00 In=07 Se=20
StdRaCT-11 Std Recoilless AutoCannon Turret -11 R=5 Cr45000 360 kg Pen-7

Attacker rolls Blast-3 Frag-1 Bullet-4 = 8 dice, where the first three are doubled for knock-down since Blast (p211). Rolls are all threes: 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 = 24 Hits, Ar=8 is deducted for a total of 16 pts damage. (Knockdown is 8×2 + 16 = 32.)
Consulting the damage location table L1 (B1, p222) with a roll of 9 results in Body Panels.
Damage severity is typically half the damage taken, so 16 pts damage / 2 = Severity 8.

Example p227 #13 seems reasonable?

Edit: An Anti-Flyer MG is only supposed to have Select: Full Auto doing thrice the damage (B1, p214). A weapon with Blast-3 Frag-1 Bullet-4 firing full auto should do Blast-9 Frag-3 Bullet-12 = 24 dice?

 

[kilemall]

I would think each multiple hit is resolved individually with its own pen/armor then damage effects.

 

[Hemdian]

v2.1 is now available.

(For both v2 and v2.1, the list of armours needs to be sorted. I neglected to do this in v2. And if you add your own armours in either version, remember to re-sort the list. If not sorted, it may sometimes not work properly.)