Arrival Vengeance

[Whipsnade]

Mr. Hale,

I should like to apologize for my earlier remarks. While my intentions were good; and we all know what road is paved with good intentions, the way I presented them was very poor. I should really stop posting to CotI in the wee hours from lonely hotel rooms.

Your CoE materials are awe inspiring. The amount of thought and careful work you put into them is painfully obvious. I especially liked the series of wars that unified the planet; the differing factions, political wranglings, campaigns, and military aims all seemed logical to me. (The strikes against the various Dolphin arcologies was a logical, if nasty, part of it all). While I enjoyed all the pieces and liked the process, I did not agree with the end result.

The Gabreelists are just another set of Earth-based loonies, no different than than their idiot racist ancestors the Solomani. Sadly, nothing had changed. The people of Earth had been through it all; Rebellion, invasion, Virus, etc., simply to find another way to hate.

FWIW, I read your CoE materials well before 9-11 and my dislike of them has nothing to do with any anti-Islamic or anti-religious fervor on my part. Like you, I believe that faith has a place in the 57th Century.

In their posts to this thread, Daryen and Kaladorn neatly summed up my feelings about the Gabreelists. The NPC reaction table in the CoE materials made up my mind about the Gabreelists; apparently there is no difference between levels of Solomani party affiliation or Gabreelist belief as both are used to measure intolerance. Like Kaladorn, if present on Earth, I would have worked to prevent the Gabreelists from taking power.

Your question about what would I have written is a good one. Again like Daryen and Kaladron, I would have tried for a more inclusive, more tolerant, more 'normal' Terra and not one dominated by racists, zealouts, or any other Us vs. Them types. Perhaps Joshua Dahvin's faction within the Solomani Party; the Human-Vargr-Dolphin folks, are a majority on Earth prior to the collapse and Earth's growth begins from that seed? I'd like to see Earth in the OTU become a beacon, a place that PCs come from, a place that campaigns want to visit. It has been none of those things for the life of Traveller.

Mr. Dougherty's M:1248 materials include a Terran Confederation. I, for one, will be very interested in seeing just what the polity consists of.

Again, my apologies for the wholly unintentional tenor of my earlier remarks.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

Mr. Hale,

I should like to apologize for my earlier remarks. While my intentions were good; and we all know what road is paved with good intentions, the way I presented them was very poor. I should really stop posting to CotI in the wee hours from lonely hotel rooms.

Your CoE materials are awe inspiring. The amount of thought and careful work you put into them is painfully obvious. I especially liked the series of wars that unified the planet; the differing factions, political wranglings, campaigns, and military aims all seemed logical to me. (The strikes against the various Dolphin arcologies was a logical, if nasty, part of it all). While I enjoyed all the pieces and liked the process, I did not agree with the end result.

The Gabreelists are just another set of Earth-based loonies, no different than than their idiot racist ancestors the Solomani. Sadly, nothing had changed. The people of Earth had been through it all; Rebellion, invasion, Virus, etc., simply to find another way to hate.

FWIW, I read your CoE materials well before 9-11 and my dislike of them has nothing to do with any anti-Islamic or anti-religious fervor on my part. Like you, I believe that faith has a place in the 57th Century.

In their posts to this thread, Daryen and Kaladorn neatly summed up my feelings about the Gabreelists. The NPC reaction table in the CoE materials made up my mind about the Gabreelists; apparently there is no difference between levels of Solomani party affiliation or Gabreelist belief as both are used to measure intolerance. Like Kaladorn, if present on Earth, I would have worked to prevent the Gabreelists from taking power.

Your question about what would I have written is a good one. Again like Daryen and Kaladron, I would have tried for a more inclusive, more tolerant, more 'normal' Terra and not one dominated by racists, zealouts, or any other Us vs. Them types. Perhaps Joshua Dahvin's faction within the Solomani Party; the Human-Vargr-Dolphin folks, are a majority on Earth prior to the collapse and Earth's growth begins from that seed? I'd like to see Earth in the OTU become a beacon, a place that PCs come from, a place that campaigns want to visit. It has been none of those things for the life of Traveller.

Mr. Dougherty's M:1248 materials include a Terran Confederation. I, for one, will be very interested in seeing just what the polity consists of.

Again, my apologies for the wholly unintentional tenor of my earlier remarks.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[daryen]

I must also say that my perceptions of the Gabreelists was unaffected by 9/11. From the moment I read their description, I saw them as exclusionary, racist and intolerant. It, quite honestly, never occurred to me that you meant them in any other way. I had no idea the Gabreelists were supposed to be "good guys".

If it would help, I can go back to your material and give you references to where and how I came away with my understanding.

As for using religion, that is very, very difficult. For the most part, you are pretty much guaranteed to get screwed. Those who believe that religion should have no part in the future will almost instantly reject the effort, or at least the religious adherents in the story. But also those who do believe religion should have a part in the future will also probably reject the effort, or at least the adherents, because it is not their religion. Kinda ironic how that works out.

Regardless, please understand that I believe everyone is quite impressed with the work. It is comprehensive, cohesive, and consistent. It works very well as the backdrop to an interesting setting. Unfortunately, some of us would just prefer that that setting not be at Earth.

That all being said, there are lots of way to get what we all want. It is quite possible that the Gabreelists were a (probably important) reason for Earth to recover from the Collapse, but, by the time of 1248, they have been moved off center stage. They could still play an role, but be one of many voices.

Ignoring the Gabreelists for a moment, the only other major change you will need to make from your setting to match MJD's setting so far is to make the Terran Confederation bigger. Whether or not Dingir and Terra were initially rivals, they will have to join in 1248 to face off a much larger threat to both of them.

 

[daryen]

I must also say that my perceptions of the Gabreelists was unaffected by 9/11. From the moment I read their description, I saw them as exclusionary, racist and intolerant. It, quite honestly, never occurred to me that you meant them in any other way. I had no idea the Gabreelists were supposed to be "good guys".

If it would help, I can go back to your material and give you references to where and how I came away with my understanding.

As for using religion, that is very, very difficult. For the most part, you are pretty much guaranteed to get screwed. Those who believe that religion should have no part in the future will almost instantly reject the effort, or at least the religious adherents in the story. But also those who do believe religion should have a part in the future will also probably reject the effort, or at least the adherents, because it is not their religion. Kinda ironic how that works out.

Regardless, please understand that I believe everyone is quite impressed with the work. It is comprehensive, cohesive, and consistent. It works very well as the backdrop to an interesting setting. Unfortunately, some of us would just prefer that that setting not be at Earth.

That all being said, there are lots of way to get what we all want. It is quite possible that the Gabreelists were a (probably important) reason for Earth to recover from the Collapse, but, by the time of 1248, they have been moved off center stage. They could still play an role, but be one of many voices.

Ignoring the Gabreelists for a moment, the only other major change you will need to make from your setting to match MJD's setting so far is to make the Terran Confederation bigger. Whether or not Dingir and Terra were initially rivals, they will have to join in 1248 to face off a much larger threat to both of them.

 

[daryen]

I must also say that my perceptions of the Gabreelists was unaffected by 9/11. From the moment I read their description, I saw them as exclusionary, racist and intolerant. It, quite honestly, never occurred to me that you meant them in any other way. I had no idea the Gabreelists were supposed to be "good guys".

If it would help, I can go back to your material and give you references to where and how I came away with my understanding.

As for using religion, that is very, very difficult. For the most part, you are pretty much guaranteed to get screwed. Those who believe that religion should have no part in the future will almost instantly reject the effort, or at least the religious adherents in the story. But also those who do believe religion should have a part in the future will also probably reject the effort, or at least the adherents, because it is not their religion. Kinda ironic how that works out.

Regardless, please understand that I believe everyone is quite impressed with the work. It is comprehensive, cohesive, and consistent. It works very well as the backdrop to an interesting setting. Unfortunately, some of us would just prefer that that setting not be at Earth.

That all being said, there are lots of way to get what we all want. It is quite possible that the Gabreelists were a (probably important) reason for Earth to recover from the Collapse, but, by the time of 1248, they have been moved off center stage. They could still play an role, but be one of many voices.

Ignoring the Gabreelists for a moment, the only other major change you will need to make from your setting to match MJD's setting so far is to make the Terran Confederation bigger. Whether or not Dingir and Terra were initially rivals, they will have to join in 1248 to face off a much larger threat to both of them.

 

[kafka47]

As a long time propoient of Harold's vision. I am sure that we could find a way to include CofE into 1248, as it would be a shame and I am sure that MJD universe is big enough for many different forms of pocket empires.

Taking up, Elliot's point, my speculation is when the Rim and Rimward states were being assimilated into the 3I in Milieu 200. They never really lost their Long Night identity with these idenitities being forged back in the days of the Interstellar Wars. A milieu, I know that we are going see more of, but in the Rimward states, one sees a combination of:

a) Corporate States formed by Terran megacorps;
b) Von Ryan's War type polities emerge; together with desserters who would be crowned King (a la Twilight 2000);
c) various oppressed nations who wanted to resist the onslaught of the UN centralization of Terra (yes, Yanks in Space );
d)the genetic misfits that were not conscripted into the front;
e) and all the Quacks & Dissenters that would make England of the time of colonization of the Americas look like a monolithic society.

The unlikely mixing and stirring of the above tendencies would create the mood for Solomani liberty and fascist tendencies that are presently in the Solomani Party in Milieu 1000 and provide the reason why they simply called the war off once Terra fell.

Even though Rats & Cats, gives the impression of diversity in the Sphere, if you look carefully at AM: Solomani, one quickly realizes that the Solomani Party is not monolithic nor totalitiarian (neccessarily). Being part of the sphere is the general adherence to the Cause. The Solomani movement on Terra, also, logically would be weakest in Milieu 1000, in part due to a comfortable self-satisfaction of being the centre of so much attention by the colonies who want to return home but home just isn't the same anymore. During the period of absorption into the Imperium, if I am reading Rim of Fire right, many Solomani nobles were content not to place the race card but power card. The Rim having some of the highest density of population:high tech worlds (there was a TD article, I believe to this effect) makes the Rim prime real estate furthermore, with the natural knack of Solomani humans to be more creative would give termendous levelage in the Court/Moot in Capital.

And, as the Imperium does not really want to rule the worlds themselves and a Peer could equally be an elected president (read: Imperial Encyclopedia carefully) we have the situation where the Imperium is a highly autocratic Constitutional Monarchy (Second Reich without Bismark, perhaps, or at least one has to figure out what the role Stephon's Senschal plays in running the Imperium...)

The Rim feeling that its resources are often called for battles that it does not really care about (who cares, if more Vargr are entering Vilani space were are all Children of Earth) creates another basis for the ressentment that the Solomani feel they carry.

So, perhaps, the Solomani Rim War was not a war in the proper sense but something like the Second English Civil War...aka the American Revolution. At the conclusion, of which, the Solomani are now more united than ever before but like the 13 colonies uncertain of the way forward until 116 years later but that time, Terra had accepted its place in the Rim political structure.

 

[kafka47]

As a long time propoient of Harold's vision. I am sure that we could find a way to include CofE into 1248, as it would be a shame and I am sure that MJD universe is big enough for many different forms of pocket empires.

Taking up, Elliot's point, my speculation is when the Rim and Rimward states were being assimilated into the 3I in Milieu 200. They never really lost their Long Night identity with these idenitities being forged back in the days of the Interstellar Wars. A milieu, I know that we are going see more of, but in the Rimward states, one sees a combination of:

a) Corporate States formed by Terran megacorps;
b) Von Ryan's War type polities emerge; together with desserters who would be crowned King (a la Twilight 2000);
c) various oppressed nations who wanted to resist the onslaught of the UN centralization of Terra (yes, Yanks in Space );
d)the genetic misfits that were not conscripted into the front;
e) and all the Quacks & Dissenters that would make England of the time of colonization of the Americas look like a monolithic society.

The unlikely mixing and stirring of the above tendencies would create the mood for Solomani liberty and fascist tendencies that are presently in the Solomani Party in Milieu 1000 and provide the reason why they simply called the war off once Terra fell.

Even though Rats & Cats, gives the impression of diversity in the Sphere, if you look carefully at AM: Solomani, one quickly realizes that the Solomani Party is not monolithic nor totalitiarian (neccessarily). Being part of the sphere is the general adherence to the Cause. The Solomani movement on Terra, also, logically would be weakest in Milieu 1000, in part due to a comfortable self-satisfaction of being the centre of so much attention by the colonies who want to return home but home just isn't the same anymore. During the period of absorption into the Imperium, if I am reading Rim of Fire right, many Solomani nobles were content not to place the race card but power card. The Rim having some of the highest density of population:high tech worlds (there was a TD article, I believe to this effect) makes the Rim prime real estate furthermore, with the natural knack of Solomani humans to be more creative would give termendous levelage in the Court/Moot in Capital.

And, as the Imperium does not really want to rule the worlds themselves and a Peer could equally be an elected president (read: Imperial Encyclopedia carefully) we have the situation where the Imperium is a highly autocratic Constitutional Monarchy (Second Reich without Bismark, perhaps, or at least one has to figure out what the role Stephon's Senschal plays in running the Imperium...)

The Rim feeling that its resources are often called for battles that it does not really care about (who cares, if more Vargr are entering Vilani space were are all Children of Earth) creates another basis for the ressentment that the Solomani feel they carry.

So, perhaps, the Solomani Rim War was not a war in the proper sense but something like the Second English Civil War...aka the American Revolution. At the conclusion, of which, the Solomani are now more united than ever before but like the 13 colonies uncertain of the way forward until 116 years later but that time, Terra had accepted its place in the Rim political structure.

 

[kafka47]

As a long time propoient of Harold's vision. I am sure that we could find a way to include CofE into 1248, as it would be a shame and I am sure that MJD universe is big enough for many different forms of pocket empires.

Taking up, Elliot's point, my speculation is when the Rim and Rimward states were being assimilated into the 3I in Milieu 200. They never really lost their Long Night identity with these idenitities being forged back in the days of the Interstellar Wars. A milieu, I know that we are going see more of, but in the Rimward states, one sees a combination of:

a) Corporate States formed by Terran megacorps;
b) Von Ryan's War type polities emerge; together with desserters who would be crowned King (a la Twilight 2000);
c) various oppressed nations who wanted to resist the onslaught of the UN centralization of Terra (yes, Yanks in Space );
d)the genetic misfits that were not conscripted into the front;
e) and all the Quacks & Dissenters that would make England of the time of colonization of the Americas look like a monolithic society.

The unlikely mixing and stirring of the above tendencies would create the mood for Solomani liberty and fascist tendencies that are presently in the Solomani Party in Milieu 1000 and provide the reason why they simply called the war off once Terra fell.

Even though Rats & Cats, gives the impression of diversity in the Sphere, if you look carefully at AM: Solomani, one quickly realizes that the Solomani Party is not monolithic nor totalitiarian (neccessarily). Being part of the sphere is the general adherence to the Cause. The Solomani movement on Terra, also, logically would be weakest in Milieu 1000, in part due to a comfortable self-satisfaction of being the centre of so much attention by the colonies who want to return home but home just isn't the same anymore. During the period of absorption into the Imperium, if I am reading Rim of Fire right, many Solomani nobles were content not to place the race card but power card. The Rim having some of the highest density of population:high tech worlds (there was a TD article, I believe to this effect) makes the Rim prime real estate furthermore, with the natural knack of Solomani humans to be more creative would give termendous levelage in the Court/Moot in Capital.

And, as the Imperium does not really want to rule the worlds themselves and a Peer could equally be an elected president (read: Imperial Encyclopedia carefully) we have the situation where the Imperium is a highly autocratic Constitutional Monarchy (Second Reich without Bismark, perhaps, or at least one has to figure out what the role Stephon's Senschal plays in running the Imperium...)

The Rim feeling that its resources are often called for battles that it does not really care about (who cares, if more Vargr are entering Vilani space were are all Children of Earth) creates another basis for the ressentment that the Solomani feel they carry.

So, perhaps, the Solomani Rim War was not a war in the proper sense but something like the Second English Civil War...aka the American Revolution. At the conclusion, of which, the Solomani are now more united than ever before but like the 13 colonies uncertain of the way forward until 116 years later but that time, Terra had accepted its place in the Rim political structure.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by hdhale1:
Thanks to those who read my work and have had complimentary things to say. Even if you didn't have complimentary things to say, thanks for taking the time to read it.

Thanks for taking the time to write it. There was an emptiness and it was another vision to fill the void and even for that alone, you deserve kudos. You expanded our view, and some will like what came out, and some not.

I would be interested to know more about it, than the bits that I did get to see. As you say, we had no access to your vision of it, just the bits we saw presented.

In a post-9/11 world, Children of Earth as written no longer works as I had intended it. People prancing around with symbols that resemble Moslem cresents are viewed with suspicion, unfairly of course, but the prejudice is out there.

In the short run, yes.

There are also those who will always equate religion with something that holds us back as a species, not propel us forward--the classic example being of course Galileo being told by the Catholic Church to recant all this Sun-centered solar system stuff because the masses weren't ready to hear it. Indeed, there are even those that think that God is nothing more than a "security blanket" that we as a species are slowly out growing, and by the 56-57th century people will look at those that worshipped God as being similar to those that worshipped Thor, Jupiter, Ra, or the sprites that inhabited the local streams.

I'm one of those who believes Religion has been, in different places and times, inpsiration to great men and to populations, a strength in the darkness, a lead weight around the ankle, a source of horrendous intolerance and murder in the name of God or Righteousness, a bastion of order and learning, a pretext for all manner of land grabs and other economic and secular crimes, etc.

Religion is no one thing, even within a particular faith. It is all of these things, from time to time. Or so it seems to me.

I for one like to think there is room among the stars for God. I do not begrudge those that think otherwise, because that would be the same as me telling them what to believe or not believe. That's not my place.

I think there must be, given the number of Sophonts. I think the Traveller CT chargen system for various generic clergy was quite good (from Dragon Magazine). I use it to generate clergy, and you will encounter a broad variety of Religions and world views in one of my games.

There is a place for everything in the Traveller Universe, more or less. This is one of its strngths.

Whether God should be institutionalized as part of a game system is another question. Ultimately CoE not only embraced the concept, it attempted to incorporate it as part of the game mechanics. The result was something that was unique in some respects in the history of RPGs, certainly the history of Traveller.

Well, that's a touchy point. As someone of an old-world faith nominally, but practically more of a mystic or pagan or animist... I subscribe to the old "God helps those who help themselves" theory. I'm not sure I'd insitutionalize religion into key parts of the game. It makes an interesting optional presentation for those who want it, but making it a core part of the representation of a very key system (Terra) is tough. It does limit things for other views, which was one of my complaints.

I remain proud of Children of Earth, and perhaps some day I'll start the novel it should have always been.

Please do. I'll read it, even if I wouldn't play it. We gain not only by reading what we agree with or would ourselves write, but by reading that which makes us think or say 'hey, wait a minute!'.

As a further note, let me say my interest is in a Supplement 10 style of Solomani Rim. It didn't overburden the game with government. The Rim was a frontier (in that it was new to Traveller players, and yet familiar and with a history). It was a place of trade, of feuding polities, and of the cradle of mankind. We didn't, at the time, know we had space Nazi-Russians waiting to hop out in Alien Module 6. And I haven't been able to latch onto Cats and Rats so I can't speak to the DGP take on it.

But I want an Earth that is a live and let live kind of place and that has an egalitarian government (or at least many different governments, failing that). I mean, Terra pretty much defines Balkanized. (Interestingly, no trav world gen will produce anything like Terra with 180+ countries).

I'd just like a background I can set stories against where I don't feel that the background must, due to its extremity, become the story. I kinda felt that was the problem in AM6 and with CoE. You couldn't really, afaics, ignore it quietly in the background - it would always have made its way into the foreground somehow - it was just too radical in some ways to not do so.

Now, maybe that's what some folks want - a setting that defines their adventures. I want a setting into which I can plunk my adventures, to tell my bits of the story, that adds a colour and texture, but that is not itself the story.

Good effort though, no doubt.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by hdhale1:
Thanks to those who read my work and have had complimentary things to say. Even if you didn't have complimentary things to say, thanks for taking the time to read it.

Thanks for taking the time to write it. There was an emptiness and it was another vision to fill the void and even for that alone, you deserve kudos. You expanded our view, and some will like what came out, and some not.

I would be interested to know more about it, than the bits that I did get to see. As you say, we had no access to your vision of it, just the bits we saw presented.

In a post-9/11 world, Children of Earth as written no longer works as I had intended it. People prancing around with symbols that resemble Moslem cresents are viewed with suspicion, unfairly of course, but the prejudice is out there.

In the short run, yes.

There are also those who will always equate religion with something that holds us back as a species, not propel us forward--the classic example being of course Galileo being told by the Catholic Church to recant all this Sun-centered solar system stuff because the masses weren't ready to hear it. Indeed, there are even those that think that God is nothing more than a "security blanket" that we as a species are slowly out growing, and by the 56-57th century people will look at those that worshipped God as being similar to those that worshipped Thor, Jupiter, Ra, or the sprites that inhabited the local streams.

I'm one of those who believes Religion has been, in different places and times, inpsiration to great men and to populations, a strength in the darkness, a lead weight around the ankle, a source of horrendous intolerance and murder in the name of God or Righteousness, a bastion of order and learning, a pretext for all manner of land grabs and other economic and secular crimes, etc.

Religion is no one thing, even within a particular faith. It is all of these things, from time to time. Or so it seems to me.

I for one like to think there is room among the stars for God. I do not begrudge those that think otherwise, because that would be the same as me telling them what to believe or not believe. That's not my place.

I think there must be, given the number of Sophonts. I think the Traveller CT chargen system for various generic clergy was quite good (from Dragon Magazine). I use it to generate clergy, and you will encounter a broad variety of Religions and world views in one of my games.

There is a place for everything in the Traveller Universe, more or less. This is one of its strngths.

Whether God should be institutionalized as part of a game system is another question. Ultimately CoE not only embraced the concept, it attempted to incorporate it as part of the game mechanics. The result was something that was unique in some respects in the history of RPGs, certainly the history of Traveller.

Well, that's a touchy point. As someone of an old-world faith nominally, but practically more of a mystic or pagan or animist... I subscribe to the old "God helps those who help themselves" theory. I'm not sure I'd insitutionalize religion into key parts of the game. It makes an interesting optional presentation for those who want it, but making it a core part of the representation of a very key system (Terra) is tough. It does limit things for other views, which was one of my complaints.

I remain proud of Children of Earth, and perhaps some day I'll start the novel it should have always been.

Please do. I'll read it, even if I wouldn't play it. We gain not only by reading what we agree with or would ourselves write, but by reading that which makes us think or say 'hey, wait a minute!'.

As a further note, let me say my interest is in a Supplement 10 style of Solomani Rim. It didn't overburden the game with government. The Rim was a frontier (in that it was new to Traveller players, and yet familiar and with a history). It was a place of trade, of feuding polities, and of the cradle of mankind. We didn't, at the time, know we had space Nazi-Russians waiting to hop out in Alien Module 6. And I haven't been able to latch onto Cats and Rats so I can't speak to the DGP take on it.

But I want an Earth that is a live and let live kind of place and that has an egalitarian government (or at least many different governments, failing that). I mean, Terra pretty much defines Balkanized. (Interestingly, no trav world gen will produce anything like Terra with 180+ countries).

I'd just like a background I can set stories against where I don't feel that the background must, due to its extremity, become the story. I kinda felt that was the problem in AM6 and with CoE. You couldn't really, afaics, ignore it quietly in the background - it would always have made its way into the foreground somehow - it was just too radical in some ways to not do so.

Now, maybe that's what some folks want - a setting that defines their adventures. I want a setting into which I can plunk my adventures, to tell my bits of the story, that adds a colour and texture, but that is not itself the story.

Good effort though, no doubt.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by hdhale1:
Thanks to those who read my work and have had complimentary things to say. Even if you didn't have complimentary things to say, thanks for taking the time to read it.

Thanks for taking the time to write it. There was an emptiness and it was another vision to fill the void and even for that alone, you deserve kudos. You expanded our view, and some will like what came out, and some not.

I would be interested to know more about it, than the bits that I did get to see. As you say, we had no access to your vision of it, just the bits we saw presented.

In a post-9/11 world, Children of Earth as written no longer works as I had intended it. People prancing around with symbols that resemble Moslem cresents are viewed with suspicion, unfairly of course, but the prejudice is out there.

In the short run, yes.

There are also those who will always equate religion with something that holds us back as a species, not propel us forward--the classic example being of course Galileo being told by the Catholic Church to recant all this Sun-centered solar system stuff because the masses weren't ready to hear it. Indeed, there are even those that think that God is nothing more than a "security blanket" that we as a species are slowly out growing, and by the 56-57th century people will look at those that worshipped God as being similar to those that worshipped Thor, Jupiter, Ra, or the sprites that inhabited the local streams.

I'm one of those who believes Religion has been, in different places and times, inpsiration to great men and to populations, a strength in the darkness, a lead weight around the ankle, a source of horrendous intolerance and murder in the name of God or Righteousness, a bastion of order and learning, a pretext for all manner of land grabs and other economic and secular crimes, etc.

Religion is no one thing, even within a particular faith. It is all of these things, from time to time. Or so it seems to me.

I for one like to think there is room among the stars for God. I do not begrudge those that think otherwise, because that would be the same as me telling them what to believe or not believe. That's not my place.

I think there must be, given the number of Sophonts. I think the Traveller CT chargen system for various generic clergy was quite good (from Dragon Magazine). I use it to generate clergy, and you will encounter a broad variety of Religions and world views in one of my games.

There is a place for everything in the Traveller Universe, more or less. This is one of its strngths.

Whether God should be institutionalized as part of a game system is another question. Ultimately CoE not only embraced the concept, it attempted to incorporate it as part of the game mechanics. The result was something that was unique in some respects in the history of RPGs, certainly the history of Traveller.

Well, that's a touchy point. As someone of an old-world faith nominally, but practically more of a mystic or pagan or animist... I subscribe to the old "God helps those who help themselves" theory. I'm not sure I'd insitutionalize religion into key parts of the game. It makes an interesting optional presentation for those who want it, but making it a core part of the representation of a very key system (Terra) is tough. It does limit things for other views, which was one of my complaints.

I remain proud of Children of Earth, and perhaps some day I'll start the novel it should have always been.

Please do. I'll read it, even if I wouldn't play it. We gain not only by reading what we agree with or would ourselves write, but by reading that which makes us think or say 'hey, wait a minute!'.

As a further note, let me say my interest is in a Supplement 10 style of Solomani Rim. It didn't overburden the game with government. The Rim was a frontier (in that it was new to Traveller players, and yet familiar and with a history). It was a place of trade, of feuding polities, and of the cradle of mankind. We didn't, at the time, know we had space Nazi-Russians waiting to hop out in Alien Module 6. And I haven't been able to latch onto Cats and Rats so I can't speak to the DGP take on it.

But I want an Earth that is a live and let live kind of place and that has an egalitarian government (or at least many different governments, failing that). I mean, Terra pretty much defines Balkanized. (Interestingly, no trav world gen will produce anything like Terra with 180+ countries).

I'd just like a background I can set stories against where I don't feel that the background must, due to its extremity, become the story. I kinda felt that was the problem in AM6 and with CoE. You couldn't really, afaics, ignore it quietly in the background - it would always have made its way into the foreground somehow - it was just too radical in some ways to not do so.

Now, maybe that's what some folks want - a setting that defines their adventures. I want a setting into which I can plunk my adventures, to tell my bits of the story, that adds a colour and texture, but that is not itself the story.

Good effort though, no doubt.

 

[kaladorn]

Just a brief aside on faith in Sci-Fi. B5 was interesting as it tackled faith in several places, but one of the most interesting was when an Alien wished to meet Earth's religious leader. The Commander introduces the alien to members of a whole whack of different faiths to show that humanity and human religious thought is very diverse and very much alive in 2259.

That's kind of how I'd like religion in my game. Present. Diverse. Interesting. Perhaps at bits intolerant. But only on remote places one might not want to stay forever, not on a core world of great emotional significance.

Like it or lump it, I'm a Terran. I dislike the Imperial Meritocracy (I'm also a grass roots democratic system guy). I dislike 'born to rule'. I dislike 'they're worse than us' where the they is inevitably some racial or cultural group. It is a fact of life, but not one I celebrate. I oppose and contest such thought where I may in my day to day life, and I'd definitely support (as would many people I suspect) a Terra where tolerance was at least the nominal practice, even if everyone wasn't in agreement (heck, that'd be too much to hope... we're Terrans.... get any N together and expect N+1 opinions or views!).

 

[kaladorn]

Just a brief aside on faith in Sci-Fi. B5 was interesting as it tackled faith in several places, but one of the most interesting was when an Alien wished to meet Earth's religious leader. The Commander introduces the alien to members of a whole whack of different faiths to show that humanity and human religious thought is very diverse and very much alive in 2259.

That's kind of how I'd like religion in my game. Present. Diverse. Interesting. Perhaps at bits intolerant. But only on remote places one might not want to stay forever, not on a core world of great emotional significance.

Like it or lump it, I'm a Terran. I dislike the Imperial Meritocracy (I'm also a grass roots democratic system guy). I dislike 'born to rule'. I dislike 'they're worse than us' where the they is inevitably some racial or cultural group. It is a fact of life, but not one I celebrate. I oppose and contest such thought where I may in my day to day life, and I'd definitely support (as would many people I suspect) a Terra where tolerance was at least the nominal practice, even if everyone wasn't in agreement (heck, that'd be too much to hope... we're Terrans.... get any N together and expect N+1 opinions or views!).

 

[kaladorn]

Just a brief aside on faith in Sci-Fi. B5 was interesting as it tackled faith in several places, but one of the most interesting was when an Alien wished to meet Earth's religious leader. The Commander introduces the alien to members of a whole whack of different faiths to show that humanity and human religious thought is very diverse and very much alive in 2259.

That's kind of how I'd like religion in my game. Present. Diverse. Interesting. Perhaps at bits intolerant. But only on remote places one might not want to stay forever, not on a core world of great emotional significance.

Like it or lump it, I'm a Terran. I dislike the Imperial Meritocracy (I'm also a grass roots democratic system guy). I dislike 'born to rule'. I dislike 'they're worse than us' where the they is inevitably some racial or cultural group. It is a fact of life, but not one I celebrate. I oppose and contest such thought where I may in my day to day life, and I'd definitely support (as would many people I suspect) a Terra where tolerance was at least the nominal practice, even if everyone wasn't in agreement (heck, that'd be too much to hope... we're Terrans.... get any N together and expect N+1 opinions or views!).

 

[Harold D. Hale]

Originally posted by daryen:
>I must also say that my perceptions of the
>Gabreelists was unaffected by 9/11. From the
>moment I read their description, I saw them as
>exclusionary, racist and intolerant. It, quite
>honestly, never occurred to me that you meant
>them in any other way. I had no idea the
>Gabreelists were supposed to be "good guys".

There in, lays the rub.

Religious types were always protrayed as being "nut jobs", not just in Traveller, but in most all sci-fi RPGs.

Ok, maybe the Jedi are sorta religious, but even they are subject to snapping and "going to the dark side". One wonders after the Galactic Empire fell at the end of "Return of the Jedi" if the Senate of the New Republic immediately ordered the arrest and execution of Luke Skywalker, lest there be another Jedi created that mucks up the universe.

Pardon the digression...

So part of the premise for Children of Earth was, "what if the religious types weren't nut jobs, but the good guys for a change?" I created the Gabreelists with that in mind. Of course if you aren't in my mind, difficult to know that unless I do a good job explaining it.

--h

 

[Harold D. Hale]

Originally posted by daryen:
>I must also say that my perceptions of the
>Gabreelists was unaffected by 9/11. From the
>moment I read their description, I saw them as
>exclusionary, racist and intolerant. It, quite
>honestly, never occurred to me that you meant
>them in any other way. I had no idea the
>Gabreelists were supposed to be "good guys".

There in, lays the rub.

Religious types were always protrayed as being "nut jobs", not just in Traveller, but in most all sci-fi RPGs.

Ok, maybe the Jedi are sorta religious, but even they are subject to snapping and "going to the dark side". One wonders after the Galactic Empire fell at the end of "Return of the Jedi" if the Senate of the New Republic immediately ordered the arrest and execution of Luke Skywalker, lest there be another Jedi created that mucks up the universe.

Pardon the digression...

So part of the premise for Children of Earth was, "what if the religious types weren't nut jobs, but the good guys for a change?" I created the Gabreelists with that in mind. Of course if you aren't in my mind, difficult to know that unless I do a good job explaining it.

--h

 

[Harold D. Hale]

Originally posted by daryen:
>I must also say that my perceptions of the
>Gabreelists was unaffected by 9/11. From the
>moment I read their description, I saw them as
>exclusionary, racist and intolerant. It, quite
>honestly, never occurred to me that you meant
>them in any other way. I had no idea the
>Gabreelists were supposed to be "good guys".

There in, lays the rub.

Religious types were always protrayed as being "nut jobs", not just in Traveller, but in most all sci-fi RPGs.

Ok, maybe the Jedi are sorta religious, but even they are subject to snapping and "going to the dark side". One wonders after the Galactic Empire fell at the end of "Return of the Jedi" if the Senate of the New Republic immediately ordered the arrest and execution of Luke Skywalker, lest there be another Jedi created that mucks up the universe.

Pardon the digression...

So part of the premise for Children of Earth was, "what if the religious types weren't nut jobs, but the good guys for a change?" I created the Gabreelists with that in mind. Of course if you aren't in my mind, difficult to know that unless I do a good job explaining it.

--h

 

[kaladorn]

I think you run across a problem beyond the scope of just this small situation.

The problem is that if you believe you have access ot the Truth, some objective perception of the real nature of reality, as often suggested within Religions (either as we're right, they're wrong, or we're right, they're less right if they're tolerant, or we're right, they're different, if they're United Church... *grin*), then you claim an inherently different perspective than the atheist or agnostic in that they may well believe only in a subjective reality, and not in an objective reality at all. This is one of the differences of mysticism and classic religions.

I say this because, as long as someone thinks it is possible for them to have the truth revealed to them and that there therefore is essentially one truth, there ends up being the possibility that that person's revealed truth will clash with the values of the moderate majority. Hence nutter.

I mean look at it this way:
If your God tells you that anyone who wears mauve (I'm intentionally picking a ludicrious point, so as to avoid upsetting anyone with real world comparisons directly) is obviously morally defficient, who am I to tell you you are wrong? It's between you and your God. But I might think you're a bit of a nutter because I don't see it that way.

When questioned, people who've had faith experiences will tend to say that the experience is ineffable and therefore impossible to describe to someone else. You either have had one and know it or you have not and it can't truly be captured in words to explain it to you. So faith conversions happen, but the people who've been so converted often can't explain the experience and why they are so sure. Hence other folks think of them as nutters or touched or Jesus-freaks or whatever.

Some try to explain this all away by psychology or physiology. William James, in the Varieties of Religious Experience, tries to examine this thesis and eventually shoots it down.

But its this kind of difference between people of faith and the vast bulk of the masses who have not had faith experiences and so are still searching for their truth (or have given up the search) which means that often the viewpoints will clash. And in an absolutist fashion.

And then, of course, throw in all of the secular and fiscal tie ins of religion, power, control, feudal feof building within religious agencies and organizations, etc. and you have a perfect recipe for something which makes others uncomfortable or outright scared.

Faith has a place in Traveller if the referee and players wish to explore it. Faiths and religions will undoubtedly exist in the 160 odd sophont races. So it is there. Whether one chooses to make a theme of it and how any religion is portrayed will depend a lot on who the players and the GM are and their own take on religion.

 

[kaladorn]

I think you run across a problem beyond the scope of just this small situation.

The problem is that if you believe you have access ot the Truth, some objective perception of the real nature of reality, as often suggested within Religions (either as we're right, they're wrong, or we're right, they're less right if they're tolerant, or we're right, they're different, if they're United Church... *grin*), then you claim an inherently different perspective than the atheist or agnostic in that they may well believe only in a subjective reality, and not in an objective reality at all. This is one of the differences of mysticism and classic religions.

I say this because, as long as someone thinks it is possible for them to have the truth revealed to them and that there therefore is essentially one truth, there ends up being the possibility that that person's revealed truth will clash with the values of the moderate majority. Hence nutter.

I mean look at it this way:
If your God tells you that anyone who wears mauve (I'm intentionally picking a ludicrious point, so as to avoid upsetting anyone with real world comparisons directly) is obviously morally defficient, who am I to tell you you are wrong? It's between you and your God. But I might think you're a bit of a nutter because I don't see it that way.

When questioned, people who've had faith experiences will tend to say that the experience is ineffable and therefore impossible to describe to someone else. You either have had one and know it or you have not and it can't truly be captured in words to explain it to you. So faith conversions happen, but the people who've been so converted often can't explain the experience and why they are so sure. Hence other folks think of them as nutters or touched or Jesus-freaks or whatever.

Some try to explain this all away by psychology or physiology. William James, in the Varieties of Religious Experience, tries to examine this thesis and eventually shoots it down.

But its this kind of difference between people of faith and the vast bulk of the masses who have not had faith experiences and so are still searching for their truth (or have given up the search) which means that often the viewpoints will clash. And in an absolutist fashion.

And then, of course, throw in all of the secular and fiscal tie ins of religion, power, control, feudal feof building within religious agencies and organizations, etc. and you have a perfect recipe for something which makes others uncomfortable or outright scared.

Faith has a place in Traveller if the referee and players wish to explore it. Faiths and religions will undoubtedly exist in the 160 odd sophont races. So it is there. Whether one chooses to make a theme of it and how any religion is portrayed will depend a lot on who the players and the GM are and their own take on religion.

 

[kaladorn]

I think you run across a problem beyond the scope of just this small situation.

The problem is that if you believe you have access ot the Truth, some objective perception of the real nature of reality, as often suggested within Religions (either as we're right, they're wrong, or we're right, they're less right if they're tolerant, or we're right, they're different, if they're United Church... *grin*), then you claim an inherently different perspective than the atheist or agnostic in that they may well believe only in a subjective reality, and not in an objective reality at all. This is one of the differences of mysticism and classic religions.

I say this because, as long as someone thinks it is possible for them to have the truth revealed to them and that there therefore is essentially one truth, there ends up being the possibility that that person's revealed truth will clash with the values of the moderate majority. Hence nutter.

I mean look at it this way:
If your God tells you that anyone who wears mauve (I'm intentionally picking a ludicrious point, so as to avoid upsetting anyone with real world comparisons directly) is obviously morally defficient, who am I to tell you you are wrong? It's between you and your God. But I might think you're a bit of a nutter because I don't see it that way.

When questioned, people who've had faith experiences will tend to say that the experience is ineffable and therefore impossible to describe to someone else. You either have had one and know it or you have not and it can't truly be captured in words to explain it to you. So faith conversions happen, but the people who've been so converted often can't explain the experience and why they are so sure. Hence other folks think of them as nutters or touched or Jesus-freaks or whatever.

Some try to explain this all away by psychology or physiology. William James, in the Varieties of Religious Experience, tries to examine this thesis and eventually shoots it down.

But its this kind of difference between people of faith and the vast bulk of the masses who have not had faith experiences and so are still searching for their truth (or have given up the search) which means that often the viewpoints will clash. And in an absolutist fashion.

And then, of course, throw in all of the secular and fiscal tie ins of religion, power, control, feudal feof building within religious agencies and organizations, etc. and you have a perfect recipe for something which makes others uncomfortable or outright scared.

Faith has a place in Traveller if the referee and players wish to explore it. Faiths and religions will undoubtedly exist in the 160 odd sophont races. So it is there. Whether one chooses to make a theme of it and how any religion is portrayed will depend a lot on who the players and the GM are and their own take on religion.