Armour for LBB2 - again

[mike wightman]

This is a work in progress that I would like some help with if anyone would be so kind...

I asked myself this question a while ago.
How does damage work in LBB2 combat?

Ships suffer hits that degrade their performance.

Are there any hits that “soak” damage without any immediate major repercussions?

Fuel and Hold hits.

What about hits that cause no damage at all?

Hull hits.

How do you armour a LBB2 ship?

Armour rating
The armour rating of a ship is determined by how many “blocks” of armour are bought and the TL of the armour.
1 armour block costs 10% of the hull tonnage in displacement tons and provides an armour rating determined by the AR by TL chart
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TL 7-9 10-11 12-13 14-16 17-18 19-20
AR 0 1 2 3 4 5</pre>[/QUOTE]Increasing the amount of armour carried increases the AR:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">% x2 x3 x4 x5 x6
AR +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 </pre>[/QUOTE]For damage track purposes, armour has one damage box per 10t. One armour hit is recorded if the damage table gives hull hit as a result. When the entire armour damage track has been filled the armour rating for the ship is reduced by 1 and the damage track reset.

e.g. a Gazelle CE has an AR of 3, with an armour damage track of three (30t of armour).

The AR protects a ship by reducing the damage from each attack that hits home.

For each turret that is fired, roll for damage for each hit and keep a total of how many hits affect each location. Subtract the AR from the number of hits affecting each location.

A house rule I’ve used for a long time is that the weapons in a turret may be linked to increase damage potential, but at the expense of a miss missing with all weapons in a turret.

Calculate damage as follows:</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">For lasers
For each weapon in a turret that hits +1
If lasers are pulse lasers +1
TL13+ +1
TL16+ +1 (cumulative with the above)
For plasma guns
For each weapon in a turret that hits +2
TL11+ +1
TL12+ +1 (cumulative with the above)
TL16+ +1 (cumulative with the above)
For fusion guns
For each weapon in a turret that hits +4
TL14+ +1
TL17+ +1 (cumulative with the above)
For PAWS
For each weapon in a turret that hits +5
TL15+ +1
TL16+ +1 (cumulative with the above)
TL18+ +1 (cumulative with the above)</pre>[/QUOTE]Only roll for one damage location per turret.

 

[The Oz]

I'm curious, Sigg. What if someone wants to fire the lasers in a turret separately? Can they do that? How would it work?

I'm working on my own version of how to add armor (and HG weapons) to LBB2 combat. I should have it done fairly soon.

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
What about hits that cause no damage at all?
Hull hits.

Mayday has the successive damage rule that counts "NE" hits for total damage effect. I've been playing with adding a similar effect to Book 2 by assigning a hull hit value.

Each vessel has a number of hull hits equal to the cube root of its displacement tonnage rounded up, plus one for ships (as opposed to small craft) with an additional plus one per full thousand tons.

Some examples:
</font>

• Tonnage/Hull Hits</font>
• 100/6</font>
• 200/7</font>
• 400/8</font>
• 1000/12</font>
• 2000/15</font>

Hull hits are marked against the vessel's hull hit value. When this reaches zero, the vessel is considered to be a hulk and incapable of any controlled action. Roll one die each turn, on a roll of 1, the vessel explodes and is removed from play. Hull hits are repairable under the normal damage control rules.

How do you armour a LBB2 ship?

My armour system is less elegant and integrates into the "to hit" roll. I'm posting it in the event you might find something useful.

Hull armor: Ships may be constructed with an armoured hull. For each level of armour, a ship's drive requirements are increased to the next highest drive level. Armour consumes no internal space. It's cost in megacredits is 1% of the hull size per factor. The number of hits is increased by 10% for each armour factor (if any) installed. The armour factor (if any) of the target vessel is applied as a negative DM on the attack table.

Example: A 400 ton ship with maneuver drive D, jump drive D and power plant D has maneuver-2, jump-2 and power-2. Providing this vessel with armour factor 3 would cost 12MCr. Increasing performance to original standards would require the installation of size F power plant and drives. Hull hits increase to 11.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by The Oz:
I'm curious, Sigg. What if someone wants to fire the lasers in a turret separately? Can they do that? How would it work?

I'm working on my own version of how to add armor (and HG weapons) to LBB2 combat. I should have it done fairly soon.

I didn't explain that bit very well.
Yes, they can fire the weapons separately, but each hit would be reduced by the AR. So the damage inflicted would depend on the weapon and the AR.

With an AR of 1 then a TL12- beam laser would only cause damage on a critical hit - oops there's one thing I forgot to include, if you roll a critical result on the location roll then roll again but ignore AR. A pulse laser or higher TL beam laser would lose 1 damage roll.

By TL14 an armoured ship wouldn't take damage from laser weapons less than TL16, unless a critical is rolled.

I'm also considering reducing the ranged damage of plasma and fusion weapons, e.g. the full damage only applies within 100mm - 1 range band - for range between 100mm and 200mm halve the damage. For range between 200mm and 300mm halve it again, for 300mm to 400mm half again etc.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Piper:
Mayday has the successive damage rule that counts "NE" hits for total damage effect. I've been playing with adding a similar effect to Book 2 by assigning a hull hit value.

Each vessel has a number of hull hits equal to the cube root of its displacement tonnage rounded up, plus one for ships (as opposed to small craft) with an additional plus one per full thousand tons.

Some examples:
</font>

• Tonnage/Hull Hits</font>
• 100/6</font>
• 200/7</font>
• 400/8</font>
• 1000/12</font>
• 2000/15</font>

Hull hits are marked against the vessel's hull hit value. When this reaches zero, the vessel is considered to be a hulk and incapable of any controlled action. Roll one die each turn, on a roll of 1, the vessel explodes and is removed from play. Hull hits are repairable under the normal damage control rules.

Hmm, I like this idea...

 

[mike wightman]

My latest take on High Guard turret weapons for LBB2 is:
1 harpdoint per 100t of hull. This may mount a single, double or triple turret.

Fire control requires 1 ton.

Plasma and fusion guns require 1 ton for "ammunition" feed etc.

PAWs require 4 tons of "cylotron" at TL14, reduced to 2 tons at TL15.

Lasers, sandcasters, and missiles may be single, double or triple mounts. Plasma and fusion guns may be single or double mounts, while PAWs are single mount only.

A barbette IMTU is an additional hardpoint built into an armoured hull for the cost of one regular hardpoint, e.g. a 300t armoured can spend one hardpoint to build two barbettes. Each barbette costs 5dt and 1MCr.

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Hmm, I like this idea...

Another possible use for this would be to distinguish military from civilian vessels. One could either increase the number of hull hits (and cost) for a military hull or decrease the hits (and cost) for a civilian one.

Example: a typical Type-S has 6 hull hit boxes. A military version could have say, 8 at additional cost. Same drives and performance, same weapons, but just a little tougher.

 

[mike wightman]

This is the sort of effect I'm after - hence the damage track for the armour in my system above.

I like your idea of hull structure, perhaps the two could be added together.

A civilian 100t ship would have 6 structure, +1 per 10% of the hull dedicated to armour.

Let's see now, a TL12 400t SDB AR 5 would have 8 + 4 = 12 structure.

Ooops just spotted another flaw above.
The SDB should get an armour track of 4 for the AR of 2, another 4 for the next 10%, and so on.

The damage track should go like this:

011112222333344445555

adding your structure idea would give:

0000000011112222333344445555

 

[robject]

T4 had armor points and structure points.

Hits would first nibble away at the armor, with a corresponding roll on the 'surface hits' table. After armor was gone, hits would go to structure, with a corresponding roll on the 'internal hits' table. When structure reached zero, the ship was debris.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
How do you armour a LBB2 ship?

I use your previous system. Oh, in fact, I'll use a hybrid between your old and new systems - previous system Striker-style penetration and to hit system (fits my task system well) and your new system has given me the idea of tallying (sp?) all the "NE" damage a ship recieves for a subsequent explosion.

 

[mike wightman]

Just apply the NE damage to a track like the one above, and then

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by robject:
T4 had armor points and structure points.

Hits would first nibble away at the armor, with a corresponding roll on the 'surface hits' table. After armor was gone, hits would go to structure, with a corresponding roll on the 'internal hits' table. When structure reached zero, the ship was debris.

I read the T4 ship combat rules every now and then, perhaps that's where part of this idea comes from

 

[aramis]

If you're using cumulative hull hits, Armor might simply add another block, say 10% of the hull's hits per AV.

Divide armor by 6, give six lines that many AP, distribute remainder 1 point per line.
line 1 absorbs on a 1+
Line 2 absorbs on a 2+
Line 3 on a 3+
Line 4 on 4+
Line 5 on a 5+
Line 6 on a 6+

When damage is taken, start by the first line takes all hits (1+, remember) until it's depleted.

After that, each damage point means roll 1d; on X+, that point marks off a box on the lowest target number line; on less than X, roll a location normally. Once line 6 is gone, all damage is automatically to damage allocation roll.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by The Oz:
I'm working on my own version of how to add armor (and HG weapons) to LBB2 combat. I should have it done fairly soon.

Any news of it?

 

[sleech]

Mornin' All

I've used this awfully simple system in the past.

Normally, LBB2 ships are unarmoured. Upto two levels of armour (armoured, REALLY armoured) can be bought for 10% of the ship cost each.

When a ship is hit, roll the damage location as normal. But if the ship is armoured, roll two damage locations. If the ship is REALLY armoured, roll three locations.

Once these are all identified, the player owning the ship that haas been hit selects the location where he prefers the attack to hit.

While this does not make armoured ships invincible, it definitely gives them an edge in LBB2 ship combat.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The Oz:
I'm working on my own version of how to add armor (and HG weapons) to LBB2 combat. I should have it done fairly soon.

Any news of it? </font>[/QUOTE]Still working on it. I have most of it done, the problem is playtesting.

Basically, you can armor LBB2 ships using the HG rules (but allowing tricks like only armoring some hit locations) and weapons have penetration based on their HG factor (for one weapon, no batteries) and do hits of damage as in LBB2 (with more powerful weapons like plasma/fusion guns and PA barbettes doing more hits, not to mention bay missiles). Armor may reduce the number of hits a given weapon does, even all the way to zero.

There are more die rolls needed (for penetration) and I have new hit location tables (for warships, merchies, and non-jump ships).

 

[aramis]

Here's a simple idea for armor effects: using the tons of damage per hit, subtract armor for tons per hit...

 

[robject]

Originally posted by The Sleech:

When a ship is hit, roll the damage location as normal. But if the ship is armoured, roll two damage locations. If the ship is REALLY armoured, roll three locations.

Once these are all identified, the player owning the ship that haas been hit selects the location where he prefers the attack to hit.

There's another way to do this: treat each level of armor as a +1 or -1 modifier to the roll on the damage tables.

 

[robject]

Summary

I may be wrong with these, but here's what each looks like to me.

Armor Blocks (Sigg)

Armor sort-of acts like armor in T4 personal combat, with a couple of exceptions. Weapon damage is re-calculated for PEN ratings.

Inelegant Armor (Piper)

Armor integrates into the "to hit" roll and also increases a ship's hull points. Each armor level also requires the next level of drives.

Elegant (Sleech)

Armor adds another roll on the damage table; receiver picks which hit is effective.

HG Variant (Oz)

Armor is added a la High Guard, with PEN = HG factor and DMG a la Book 2. Additionally, armor absorbs damage, similar to personal combat armor in T4.

Tons Subtraction (Aramis)

Armor is subtracted based on weapon power, with weapons rated in tons-per-hit.

Bits I like

I like armor being expensive. 1 ton per factor per 100 tons of ship, at MCr1 per ton, is a nice and easy formula. (While I also prefer armor to be voluminous, the next point takes care of volume nicely).

I really like requiring the next level of drives per armor factor -- that makes up for not having 'true' mass. That also means armor doesn't necessarily have to take up volume, since the bigger drives will do that for me. It's also a very easy rule to remember.

I also like armor absorbing damage, much like T4's personal combat model. It's easy to tack on without changing the damage done by weapons, for example, and means if you know how personal combat works, then you know how starship damage works. This would require being able to "slave together" multiple guns into one "to hit" roll, in order for damage to penetrate armor. It might also require knowing weapon factors, a la Oz's High Guard adaptation.

Or, one bit I might add is also from T4 personal combat: starship armor is "rigid", meaning it always takes at least one hit, even if the armor theoretically absorbs all damage from a hit.

 

[Golan2072]

While I was in favor of Sigg Oddra's old Striker-inspired armor/penetration system, I'm currently leaning (along with him

) towards a more elegant,
T4-inspired system. The general idea is that each weapon will have a base number of damage-table rolls (including critial and/or radiation table rolls for some weapons); each point of armor will reduce the number of rolls by one, possibly even to zero. The main question would be how to create a formula for this armor's price and tonnage, and how to convert my old HG-based armored ships to it.