CT Only: Another rules ambiguity

[yannir]

So I'm in the middle of my Book 5 Design project and I've run into a hole in the rules for crew on ships larger then 1000 tons. Specifically no crew requirements to support passengers. Should I use the book 2 rules - 1 steward per 8 high passengers and 1 medic per 120 passengers total. Or are these positions subsumed in the service crew requirement. 2 per thousand tons seems to me too small to fill those roles to me but I'm not sure how else to cover the case. The errata is silent.

 

[Badenov]

I think the requirement for Stewards and the requirement for service crew are entirely separate requirements. Book 5 is mainly not about passenger craft, so Stewards aren't mentioned, but if you did have passengers, I would use the book 2 Steward requirements plus the book 5 service crew. The Service Crew, per book 5, are for "shops and storage, security (especially if there are no ship's troops aboard), maintenance, food service, and other operations." Nothing about service to passengers. Really 'food service' is the only overlap, and the Book 5 food service can be viewed as food service for the crew, whereas Stewards provide food service for passengers. The errata mentions medical for crew, and there's probably more room for overlap since the requirements are more similarly written (Medics per crew and medics per passenger, whereas the service crew is per ton of ship and Stewards are per passenger).

 

[Spinward Flow]

To be fair, LBB5.80 is more concerned with military than commercial craft.

CT Errata, p14 includes the following:

Page 33, Crew, Medical Section (omission): The paragraph about the Medical Section was dropped:
Medical Section: The ship should have one medical person for every 240 crew persons (including ship‘s troops) aboard. The medical section should have 30% officers, and 30% petty officers. Personnel are drawn from the medical branch.

Specifically no crew requirements to support passengers. Should I use the book 2 rules - 1 steward per 8 high passengers and 1 medic per 120 passengers total. Or are these positions subsumed in the service crew requirement.

The better way to think of it is that the Medical Section and the Service Section are parallel to each other, rather than replacements. It is not the case that because you're dealing with displacements over 1000 tons that you can think of the Medical Section as superfluous (just omitted from the printing of LBB5.80, in error, as cited above).

Therefore:

• Medical Section:
  • 1 crew position per 240 persons aboard (including ship's troops) on craft over 1000 tons. Round fractions off, but minimum 1 required.
  • Passengers (low/mid/high) will require an additional 1 crew position per 120 passengers. Round fractions off, but minimum 1 required.
    • Therefore, on a ship with 240 persons or less (crew+troop) and 120 passengers or less (low/mid/high), 2 crew positions are required.
• Service Section:
  • 3 crew positions per 1000 tons if no ship's troops.
  • 2 crew positions per 1000 tons if ship's troops are present.
  • 1 steward position per 8 high passengers to be accommodated aboard.
    • To my mind, Service Section crew ARE Stewards (in effect), which makes things easier for backwards compatibility.

 

[mike wightman]

Steward skill is unavailable to navy character generation.

 

[McPerth]

When I see such omissions or ambiguities in rules on CT or MT I use to look the other one to see if it has useful ideas (I think on MT as a kind of advanced CT).

While I use to need this more the other way (looking on CT for omissions/ambiguities in MT), and the ships/crafts are one of the poitns both version most diverge, I think this can be useful here, so I'd look at MT rules for this (craft design, accomodations section, where crew needs are described):

Stewards: (high passengers + command crew)/8 + (middle passangers `non-command crew)/50 (drop fractions)

So, not only passengers are counted, but also crew.

As it has also brought into the discussion:

Medical crew: (crew and passengers)/120 + (low passengers)/20 (drop fractions)

I guess low passengers include frozen watch, though it's not specified, and, I'd change drop fractions for drop fractions over 1 (so a minimum of 1).

 

[McPerth]

Steward skill is unavailable to navy character generation.

In fact, is quite rare a skill in CT, only available to Merchants and Scientists...

Luckily, skill 0 is enough to work as such...

 

[Spinward Flow]

Steward skill is unavailable to navy character generation.

* cough *

Civilian contractors ...

* ahem *



Point being that on navy starships, not EVERYONE needs to be *NAVY* personnel.
As an easy point of example, Ship's Troops and vehicle crews will tend to be drawn from other services (Marines, but also Army, for instance).

I can easily imagine that megacorps would have contracts for service section personnel aboard starships built by those megacorps.
And those same megacorps have merchant operations, so ... ... guess where those megacorps draw their pool of service section personnel from to assign to postings on military starships?

 

[whartung]

On ships with a medical presence of more than a advanced first aid or trauma kit, some dTons should be put aside for a first class sick bay with beds, and a sterile exam/trauma/surgical room. 8-16 dtons given the generic 4dt stateroom standard.

 

[McPerth]

As an easy point of example, Ship's Troops and vehicle crews will tend to be drawn from other services (Marines, but also Army, for instance).

That was my first thought too, but neither Army nor Marines have the steward skill available either...

I can easily imagine that megacorps would have contracts for service section personnel aboard starships built by those megacorps.
And those same megacorps have merchant operations, so ... ... guess where those megacorps draw their pool of service section personnel from to assign to postings on military starships?

Also my second thought, and, even while they have the skill, how many countries do today rely on private contractorsfor the food service of their ship crews? AFAIK, most (if not all) of them have their own naval crewmembres specialists on it.

As CT military careers are mainly based on US ones, I guess this is taken over by navy personnel, and the skill should be available for them. I guess the problem was simply on the limits of the tables...

Again, comparing it with MT, in MT some skills were cascades, and Steward was included in the Interpersonal one, so it was easier to obtain. Also, you could use carousing (at -1) as steward there...

 

[yannir]

Steward skill is unavailable to navy character generation.

But not all ships are Navy ships.

 

[yannir]

On ships with a medical presence of more than a advanced first aid or trauma kit, some dTons should be put aside for a first class sick bay with beds, and a sterile exam/trauma/surgical room. 8-16 dtons given the generic 4dt stateroom standard.

That would be taken out of the 4dt per person allotment. So a small ship probably has little more than a closet full of medical supplies while a large vessel would have a full infirmary.

 

[mike wightman]

But not all ships are Navy ships.

You are asking about High Guard, High Guard is for constructing warships and gives character generation for naval characters, not civilians.

"At last, extensive rules for the personnel and starships of the interstellar navies of the universe. Detailed character generation for naval
characters, including the academy, and medical school, and 5 new skills. Rules for starship design, construction, and combat, with tonnages
ranging to one million tons!
High Guard, created for the interstellar naval adventurer and referee."

It can be used to build civilian craft, but that was not its primary intent.

Which is why it doesn't bother itself with civilian careers, civilian skills, and only pays lip service to civilian crewed ships.

Hence the lack of the steward skill for navy character generation.

If you want to use High Guard to construct a 20,000t passenger liner then you would use the LBB:2 steward rule, in addition to the service crew.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So I'm in the middle of my Book 5 Design project and I've run into a hole in the rules for crew on ships larger then 1000 tons. Specifically no crew requirements to support passengers. Should I use the book 2 rules - 1 steward per 8 high passengers and 1 medic per 120 passengers total. Or are these positions subsumed in the service crew requirement. 2 per thousand tons seems to me too small to fill those roles to me but I'm not sure how else to cover the case. The errata is silent.

First thing: The stated needed crew are minimums, you can add as much extra crew as you want.

Second: It's not really a problem except in some corner cases such as a low jump ship filled with high passengers or yachts.


Take a simple 20000 Dt J-2 liner:
The minimum service crew is 61.
If we add stewards & medics as per LBB2 we need 212.
That is 150 crew or ~600 Dt, or about 5% of payload space. That would be a huge deal for a warship, but not for a liner...

R2-L622243-000000-00000-0      MCr 9 576      20 000 Dton
bearing                                          Crew=251
batteries                                           TL=12
          Pass=2000 Cargo=3160 Fuel=4400 EP=400 Agility=1

Spoiler:

Single Occupancy                                  3 160     9 576
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             L         20 000         
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                    1 600
Scoops              Streamlined                                20
                                                                
Jump Drive                             2    1       600     2 400
Manoeuvre D                            2    1     1 000       700
Power Plant                            2    1     1 200     3 600
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2     4 400         
Purifier                                    1       132         1
                                                                
Bridge                                      1       400       100
Computer            m/4                4    1         4        30
                                                                
Staterooms                               2251     9 004     1 126
                                                                
Cargo                                             3 160         
                                                                
Empty hardpoint                           100       100         
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 9 576,20         Sum:     3 160     9 576
Class Cost          MCr 2 011,00        Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 7 660,96                                 
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High  1000        Crew          Bridge    11
Passengers            Mid  1000         251       Engineers    28
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service   212
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

I add stewards and medics as per LBB2 if there are more than a few passengers, but I don't think it's a big deal...

 

[yannir]

If you want to use High Guard to construct a 20,000t passenger liner then you would use the LBB:2 steward rule, in addition to the service crew.

That does seem to be the feeling of the thread.

 

[yannir]

First thing: The stated needed crew are minimums, you can add as much extra crew as you want.

Second: It's not really a problem except in some corner cases such as a low jump ship filled with high passengers or yachts.

Edge cases are where the magic happens. I'm trying to build a program that encompasses all the possibilities not just the likely ones. And trying to stick as closely to the rules as seems possible only occasionally finding places where the spirit of the rules and the rules as written may be at odds.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Note: There is no ambiguity, only the service section is required under LBB5 rules.

But you can of course add whatever you want, to taste.

For a luxury liner or yacht I would probably add more than the minimum LBB2 requires.

 

[kilemall]

Steward skill is unavailable to navy character generation.

Definitely an oversight as captains used to have their steward and one could argue the cook and laundry services are key for crew morale on long voyages.

 

[kilemall]

In fact, is quite rare a skill in CT, only available to Merchants and Scientists...

Luckily, skill 0 is enough to work as such...

On my extra skill table INT 8+, I gave the diplomats a Steward skill slot, as putting on a good banquet/dinner can help with negotiation.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Steward skill is unavailable to navy character generation.

That works out well for players, who don't have to "waste" an earned skill level on Steward when it could be better used as Pilot or Gun Combat or, well, anything else.

Not so well for people coming at the rules, decades later, trying to make something "realistic" out of the rule set. (See also, the FASA deck plans for the Patrol Cruiser...)

Fortunately, Steward-0 is acceptable (despite LBB5 stating that the default level for all skills is 2 on military ships). So it's an additional duty on military vessels, and somehow the naval personnel who do it teach themselves up to Steward-2 without a formal instruction system or any documentation on their records.
/shrug/

 

[Spinward Flow]

I gave the diplomats a Steward skill slot, as putting on a good banquet/dinner can help with negotiation.

I would view that more as a matter of Carousing (being a good host who presides over the meal) rather than a matter of Steward (being a good cook who prepares everything to be eaten/drunk personally and then does the serving as the wait staff).

The way I think of it, the Steward is the one who "produces" the banquet/dinner ... while the one who is Carousing "directs" the banquet/dinner in terms of persuasion, making connections with people and doing the whole socializing to advantage thing so as to get the most out of the occasion.