Another Combat Patch

[David Johansen]

Okay, here's a shot at a rework that uses much of the current data the goal would be a clear and simple game that maps well to Classic Traveller.

Surprise By Sensors: Sensors vs ECM alternately Stealth vs Recon
Initiative By Side: Tactics vs Tactics Defender 2d Attacker 3d, +1d for Surprise
Individual Initiative: Dexterity 2d + 1d for Surprise (in sequence with initiative by side)

Melee Attack: 2d <=Strength or Dexterity + Attacker Weapon or Brawling - Target Weapon or Brawling

Brawling Damage = Attacker's Racial Strength Dice - Target Strength

Melee Weapon Damage = Attacker's Racial Strength Dice

Missile Attack: 6d - Target Size d + Higher Speed d <= Dexterity + Weapon Skill
Concealment +1d, Cover +1d, Aimed Shot -1d (no move, one shot), +1d per Range Band off Effective Range

Rapid Fire 1d Group Hits within Close
Very Rapid Fire 2d Group Hits Within Short

 

[robject]

In general I like the way you only deal in whole dice rather than DMs.

I really like your initiative rolls.

My Melee Combat suggestion is to make it an opposed task; best success applies damage to the other. [edited]

My Ranged Combat suggestion sets the base difficulty = 3D, with increased range adding dice, and other various affects adding or subtracting dice (aimed fire, cover, drawing, target speed).

I add 1D for smaller-than-human targets, and subtract 1D for larger-than-human targets. No need to think about Size.

I keep weapon Burden as a plain DM. That's the exception to the rules. It's also a "Special Consideration" as are a lot of the other modifiers...

 

[Ulsyus]

My Melee Combat suggestion is to make it an opposed task; highest success winning.

Would you make it lowest roll, considering how difficulty adds dice and players are normally looking for the lowest possible roll to come in under the Char+Skill+Mods?

 

[pendragonman]

Would you make it lowest roll, considering how difficulty adds dice and players are normally looking for the lowest possible roll to come in under the Char+Skill+Mods?

And "winning" being defined as to who gets to apply damage, not that the combat is over.

 

[robject]

Edited!

 

[David Johansen]

Modifier stacking is a big mess in the current 5.09 version. The big problem is the core concept of size - Range. The five points for a human sized target is a big number for a 2d6 roll and 5 dice is lots of dice. Also, in the current system range is double dipped as a difficulty in dice and a modifier.

Things the system needs to include like cover, covering fire / suppression, all become problems as whole dice. But I just can't help but feel the 5.09 system is fiddly and often broken numerically.

+ Size - Range in dice gives too wide of a range when a target number of 10 is fairly average.

So what's to be done. 2d base in a system where a combatant could have a target number of 18 or even more?

Long lists of conditional modifiers like we have in 5.09?

What if Size were only +/- 1d?

So:
-1d size > range
+1d size < range

Let's make difficulty = range + speed because it's simple. Concealment and prone could be -1 Size. I'm a big fan of cover as armor when you're using hit locations. It just works well and makes sense. But if we want to keep cover and make hit locations optional I'd suggest +2d for +1d to your own attacks with a stipulation that speed is completely incompatible with cover.

Automatic fire is tricky but I like extra attack rolls better than more dice as we need to rein in the numerical spread. Just give rf three attack rolls on a close group and vrf six on a group within short range. Semiautomatic attacks can get 2 attacks. A single aimed attack would give -1d to hit.

Lastly all damage should be cumulative against a single defence type as shown in the Hit 1 material in gun maker. The Armor values given don't work with the weapon damages if they aren't. I've always felt there was a page of special damage effects missing that makes burn and bullet a difference with distinction.

Similarly, Horns doing Pen indicates that Pen isn't great at armor penetration but rather speaks to a deeper wound which would fit with pen generally being listed after bullet and cuts etc. Bullet wounds should bleed too, cuts are ridiculously deadly in 5.0.

So why not burn doesn't bleed, cut bleeds 2, bullet bleeds 1, pen bleeds 3?

 

[robject]

Modifier stacking is a big mess in the current 5.09 version. The big problem is the core concept of size - Range. The five points for a human sized target is a big number for a 2d6 roll and 5 dice is lots of dice. Also, in the current system range is double dipped as a difficulty in dice and a modifier.

You know, this was the case in .00 as well.

Your suggestions are worth considering. I don't know how many variations of the combat system I've tried out.

I went so far as making the typical roll 3D.

 

[David Johansen]

5.0 is not without its warts, it's just that 5.09 is worse.

Always converting 3 points of modifiers to 1d fixes many of my issues with the current version. But it's one more cludgy step in a pretty cludgy system.

An ideally clean version would be:

tactics contest for initiative
nd to hit
nd for damage
subtract armor
distribute damage to stats.

It's hard to make that work with the current factors and numbers.

One side thought, stealth and sensors and such should actually be setting encounter range. The fight starts when you spot the enemy.

 

[mike wightman]

I am intrigued by the range and target size base.

Hitting a size 1 at range 1 - easy enough on the range.
hitting size 1 at range 2 - 1D harder
hitting size 2 at range 2 - easy
etc.
weapon length determines base range
sights extend base range...

target movement should make it more difficult - +1D if target running, +2D if target evading
your movement should make it harder - moving +1D, running +2D, evading +3D

 

[robject]

David, I think I agree with all your points there.

 

[robject]

Here's mine. Let's combine and morph.

Ranged Attacks. A basic 3D difficulty task is rolled against the attacker’s skill and associated characteristic. Firearms typically use Dexterity. The difficulty is based on average ranged combat distance (Range 2) and basic evasive movement (Speed 1): Difficulty = Range + Speed, in dice.

Note the unspoken assumption that this is for humans attacking humans.

The basic 3D task roll is subject to a variety of cumulative modifiers, when desired and where applicable. For typical cases, hasty, cautious, or unusual actions will add or subtract dice. For example, ranges beyond 50 meters add more dice. Additionally, combat without the appropriate skill increases difficulty by one die. Dice modifiers may also be added to the resulting roll. For example, a bulky gun adds penalty to the task roll. Refer to Special Considerations for more details.

Melee combat is an opposed task: two combatants roll an attack task using 2D. Melee weapons typically use Strength. The lowest success hits. Without weapons, humans inflict 1D damage.

Damage. Each weapon has damage effects, in number of dice. On a successful attack, damage is rolled. Each die of damage is subtracted from one of the target’s physical characteristics (Strength, Dexterity, or Endurance). The wounded player may decide which physical characteristic receives specific wound points in order to avoid or delay unconsciousness for as long as possible. As a simplifying rule, Non-Player Characters (NPCs) are rendered unconscious when they take more than ten points of damage in one round.

First Blood. The first wound received is an exception to the process. With the first wound, all damage is applied to one physical characteristic, determined by rolling 1D: 1-2 = Strength, 3-4 = Dexterity, and 5-6 = Endurance. Excess damage “spills over” to the next physical characteristic, so damage first applied to Strength spills over to Dexterity, and from there Endurance, while damage first applied to Endurance spills over to Strength. Thus it is possible to incapacitate and even kill a target with the first shot.

Wounding and Death. Characters with one characteristic reduced to zero recover consciousness after ten minutes (40 combat rounds) with all three physical characteristics temporarily placed at a value half way between full strength and the wounded level (rounded down). A return to full strength requires medical attention, or three days of rest.

Characters with two characteristics reduced to zero are considered seriously wounded and recover consciousness after three hours. Their characteristics remain at their wounded level (or 1, whichever is higher). Recovery is dependent on finding a medical facility and an individual with Medic-3 skill; recuperation without medical attention is not possible.

Characters with three characteristics reduced to zero are dead.

Once again, unless the circumstance mandates application of damage to a specific body part, general injury is assumed. An enemy with “0” points left due to a leg being shot off is as disabled as one disabled by abdominal wounds. Player characters can determine injury locations after combat, if desired or required. The referee can also use common sense – a character hiding behind a crate, with only his or her pilot-seat-contact-point in the line of fire, clearly has an injury to his or her posterior. A person hit when sticking his or her head over the crate may have to accept that it is time to roll a new character.

Armor. All damage is summed against a single defense type as shown in the Hit 1 material in GunMaker. Armor reduces the damage sustained in an attack by the value of its armor rating. Basic armor ratings are as follows:

[armor table not included here. we know what they are.]

SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS

• Aimed Fire. Treat aimed fire as cautious tasks: the player passes on acting this round in order to fire in the next round for 1D easier difficulty.
• Animal Combat. Animals typically have two types of attack: melee (covered under Melee Combat) and ramming (covered under Impact and Falling Damage).
• Burden
• Cover [as armor]
• Drawing a Weapon. When drawing in the same round as firing, add +1D to the attack difficulty.
• Frag and Strafe Damage. Weapons with “Frag” damage, such as shotguns, vehicle-mount weapons, and grenades, attack additional, adjacent targets at +1D difficulty. Shotguns attack up to two additional targets; grenades and strafing weapons attack all adjacent targets.
• Initiative. A designated player rolls initiative (3D < Int + Tactics); this may be an opposed task. Moreover, the referee may elect to change the task difficulty.
• Impact and Falling Damage. See SPEED.
• Multiple Attacks. Assault, Battle, Combat, and Machine guns operate in burst fire by default, and therefore make two attacks against their target.
• Multiple Weapons. When using two different weapons at the same time, add +1D difficulty. When attacking two different targets with the same type of weapon at the same time, add +1D difficulty. Two different weapons against two different targets? +2D.
• Protections. Some weapons deal unusual types of damage, such as shock from a shock gun or tranq from a dart gun. Additionally, some types of damage are environmental, such as suffocation or radiation. Some armor types have specific protections against these damage types. Please refer to the expanded rules in the Traveller5 Book for details. As always, the referee may make exceptions for whatever is reasonable for the situation.
• Ranges. Typical combat takes place at “indoor” ranges – up to 50 meters’ distance. In the case of longer-ranged personal, increase the number of dice thrown accordingly: [etc etc range table]
• Size of Target. Larger than human = -1 die difficulty. Smaller = +1 die difficulty.
• Speed. Typically, the faster a target is moving, the harder it is to hit. Match the speed to its rating below, and subtract this value from attack rolls. Speed is also used with impact and falling. To avoid being hurt by falling or an impact, roll 2D < Dexterity – Speed rating (consult the Speed table below for details). The amount of damage dice inflicted is the square of the speed DM. For example, an impact at 50kph is Speed=4: the damage is 4 x 4 = 16 dice.
  
  [speed table with damage]
  

But note there that I use Speed as a mod. It doesn't add difficulty dice. Sigh.

• Vehicle and Occupant Damage. When weapon attacks penetrate vehicle armor, roll on the table below to determine damage location and severity. The severity level is also the number of dice of damage inflicted on all occupants in the vehicle.
  
  [damage location table, severity table, and diagnosis difficulty table]
  

As I noted earlier, many (not all) of these change the task difficulty in whole dice. That may or may not work well.

"Cover as armor" is reasonable to me.

 

[David Johansen]

The distribution of damage to stats is a problem. I don't like having to roll for each die of damage to find out where it goes. I don't like rolling a hitlocation and then rolling a stat. Why not have the hitlocation determine the first stat damaged?

Head = Endurance
Arm = Dexterity
Torso = Endurance
Leg = Strength

That or just flat out apply 1/3 of total damage to each stat with the odd points going to the highest stat.

 

[robject]

Why not have the hitlocation determine the first stat damaged?

That or just flat out apply 1/3 of total damage to each stat with the odd points going to the highest stat.

While I understand your dislike of Rolling Yet More Dice, I think we still have more brainstorming to do there.

#1 requires the hit location roll be made. I'm voting for making that "advanced" as in "I can ignore it until it's needed."

#2 doesn't "feel Traveller". For some reason it feels like hit points. Plus, divide by a third?


Consider that damage to characteristics is a grave matter to players.

 

[pendragonman]

While I understand your dislike of Rolling Yet More Dice, I think we still have more brainstorming to do there.

#1 requires the hit location roll be made. I'm voting for making that "advanced" as in "I can ignore it until it's needed."

#2 doesn't "feel Traveller". For some reason it feels like hit points. Plus, divide by a third?


Consider that damage to characteristics is a grave matter to players.

What about head hits damaging intel?

 

[David Johansen]

Dividing by 1/3 would result in 3 times as much damage.

Anyhow, in principle I like the random distribution but in practice it's pretty cludgy. Maybe there's some kind of rule of thumb that could be applied like highest die to highest attribute then next to next highest or something. You could even just allow the player to take it where they want it. Sure it's gamey and would increase survivability but it's simple and direct.

The problem is that you have to get another die and roll it for each die in turn, Hit v0 doesn't do that of course but I think people want the stat reduction and it actually matters a fair bit in a stat + skill mechanic.

Speed has me thinking, really if you've got some range to track a target it's less of an issue maybe it should be +1d difficulty if Speed > Range.

Try this:

Combat begins when one side or the other spots the other. If scouts are used they might spot the enemy and opt to withdraw to alert their allies if they lack communicators or are maintaining comm silence to avoid detection. Combat begins at detection range. The first person to initiate combat always attacks first.

A force must be in communication to be coordinated and must be coordinated to Seize the Initiative.

Phases: First Side, Second Side, Individuals

To Seize the Initiative
Intelligence [C3] + Tactics opposed (2d)

To Remain in Communication
Routine [2d] Education + Comms

To Coordinate Force
Intelligence [C4] or Social Standing [C6] + Leadership

Individual Initiative = Dexterity

To Hit (Melee)
Dexterity [C2] or Strength [C1] + Weapon Skill opposed
I'd like to suggest that damage is standard 1d for unarmed, 2d for daggers and claws , 3d for swords with a +1 per d if the rolled damage is less than the attacker's Strength

To Hit (Ranged)
Dexterity + Weapon Skill
Base Difficulty = Range
+1d Size > Range (Size -1 prone)
+1d Speed < Range
+1d Attacker Moved (except stabilized weapons)
+1d Target Moved (except seeking weapons)

Rapid Fire (group hits on all within close range of target)
Very Rapid Fire -1d and group hits on all targets within close range or group hits on all within short range of target)

Cover (if hit locations not used)
-1 to hit / -2 to be hit concealment or partial soft cover
-2 to hit / -4 to be hit partial hard cover or full soft cover
-3 to hit / -6 to be hit full hard cover

What I like about this set up is that it makes a stationary target and shooter important but doesn't result in the difficulty being reduced which would cause problems at close range. In fact the only thing that will reduce the difficulty below one is focused very rapid fire at close range.

Damage
Roll nd verses armor type
Subtract armor type from result starting with highest die
Apply remaining full dice of damage to attributes [C1 -3] starting with lowest die and the highest attribute, player choses in the case of a tie.

Target is incapacitated when one attribute is reduced to zero, seriously wounded when two are, killed when all three are

Penetrate counts double against armour, Penetrate dice are applied before all other damage

Bullet and Penetrate cause bleeding 1 per wound
Cut cause bleeding 1 per die that penetrates armour
Shrapnel causes bleeding 2 per die that penetrates armour and causes group hits to all targets in close range
Blast causes group hits to other targets in close range, only one to hit roll is required to hit all of them

 

[David Johansen]

Here's a quick alternative that uses more modifiers and only one difficulty level.

To Hit (Ranged)
Dexterity + Weapon Skill
Base Difficulty = Range
- Size
- Speed
-2 Attacker Moved

+2 Rapid Fire including semiauto rapid fire(group hits on all within close range of target)
+ 4 Very Rapid Fire and group hits on all targets within close range or group hits on all within short range of target)

Cover (if hit locations not used)
-1 to hit / -2 to be hit concealment or partial soft cover
-2 to hit / -4 to be hit partial hard cover or full soft cover
-3 to hit / -6 to be hit full hard cover

 

[robject]

Both of which have merit.

The question becomes, which is more like what we already have, between T500 and T509? That's the proxy for what Marc is more likely to approve of.

I'm suspecting the second one is more likely to appeal to Marc.

 

[David Johansen]

I left the initiative and damage stuff off of the second one because it didn't change and was redundant as such.

Personally dice are better than modifiers because they have a broader range and produce less predictable results. The second one isn't far from what's in 5.09. The big difference is that I've tried to avoid subtracting difficulty dice which can quite easily get below 1d in the 5.09 system.

 

[robject]

I admit to liking T500 better than T509, except for the useful parts of T509 that T500 lacks. And both suffer from organizational pain.

 

[David Johansen]

That's something that's occurred to me. There absolutely needs to be a complete task list somewhat like what I've done above. It's all spread through the text and there needs to be a summary.

I think the biggest thing I've realized in this pass is that you should never subtract dice from the difficulty. Or, alternately must increase the difficulty of the task by the maximum number of dice that can be subtracted from it.

I don't like 5.09 giving range as difficulty and then a modifier of size - range. It's consistent with senses of course and I realize that's a big part of Marc's vision. What about losing range as the base difficulty?

What if action status was the base difficulty? and we just used size - range and speed as modifiers?

Stationary 2d
Walking 3d
Running 4d