Ancients question

[Whipsnade]

Two minor things...

If Grandfather's 'device' wavefront is what triggered the Core aliens reaction, was it going slower than light?

Good question and the answer can simply be: We Don't Know.

Maybe Grandfather's device has some wonky temporal effects, who knows?

A) What if the J-Space Bomb has diminishing returns - Jump 6 in Known Space and about say, x 100 ly radius, J5 y beyond that, 4, 3, etc. Maybe the Core bomb (Empress Wave) is a much BIGGER version of the same thing, to make the rest of the galaxy accessible?

Two nifty suggestions. The "Diminishing Returns" effect might be what the Aslan, Solomani, and Hiver Rim expeditions are experiencing now as they finally push way out of Chartered Space. Of course, diminishing returns would also effect the Zho Core Expeditions and there's no mention of that.

Just a side note on the Empress Wave - I always had a problem with it moving lightspeed and the Zhodani not reacting at the Imperial Border until roughly TNE.

That's been one of the many problems folks have had with the Empress Wave ever since TNE revealed it. It's also why the explanation of the Wave in M:1248 is, sadly, a failure.

I've (imperfectly) explained the issue by suggesting that A) the Wave does move at FTL speeds in certain situations and B) that it prevents jump across a region "wider" than 6 parsecs. So part of the Wave is going to hit the Vargr-Imperial border around 1200, but another part of the Wave has raced up the Core Expedition Route and is moving across the Consulate at a much faster speed in such a manner that no warning, aside from the general feelings of dread, can be dispatched. Simply put, once you realize the Wave has arrived, you've already been unable to jump for quite some time.

Oh, and the smaller Longbow facilities were deeper towards the Core past the Extents. Just how the Imperium got there, built them, manned them, and communicated with them is another nagging problem left over from TNE.


Regards,
Bill

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Bill,

If I may offer additions/alternatives to your feverishly brilliant postulations:

Grandfather knew or inferred that the Primordials/Others had migrated to the Core in order to hand around the event horizon of the black hole there for reasons even Grandfather could only guess at. He knew the "wave front" of his device would eventually reach the Core and announce his presence to the Primordials and Others there. What would be their response to Grandfather "pissing in the pool"?

Grandfather wants access to the Galactic Core because singularities are the most efficient information processors in existence -- and the supermassive black hole at the centre of our galaxy is exponentially more powerful than any other singularity for over 2 million light years around.

The problem, of course, is that he's new to the scene; earlier races already harnessed it hundreds of millions, if not billions, of years ago. They are using it for their own godlike purposes, a consequence of which is that kid sisters like Grandfather are denied free access.

My spin on the Zhodani Core Explorations is even darker: Grandfather has manipulated the Consulate into acting as his mine shaft canaries. What ever he fears is going to come roaring out of the Core will hit the Exploration Route first and that will give Gramps time to react.

'Baddies from the core' is a meme initiated by Grandfather and allowed to flourish on its own. It gives him reasonable confidence that the people he doesn't want goofing around in that region don't wander down there. He then provided The Projector, of course, to create a powerful enough motivation to convince the Zhodani to overcome that meme, because they're the people he does want to wander down there.

The Zhodani aren't some sort of tripwire; Grandfather has plenty of other psionic races at his disposal to serve as his barnyard geese. The Zhos are moving down the Core Route explicitly in order to make contact with the singularity -- or rather, with one of the many processing nodes orbiting at a 'safe' distance around the singularity. The Zhodani can do this in relative anonymity because that's one of the unique qualities of Terrestrial-based psionic minds. It's essentially why Grandfather decided that Humaniti, Vargr and every other Terran genome he ever peeked into were worth mucking around with in the first place.

Why he's got the Zhodani doing it is debatable. Certainly the Zhodani don't know their true purpose; they just know that they want to do it. Depending on what you think Grandfather's attitude and deep motivations have been all these millenia, the Zhos are either: A) a circuit preparing to close, B) a spark moving down a fuse or C) a little bit of both.

If there's an Empress Wave, it's a result of what happens once the Zhodani make contact with the singularity. And if the Primordials have a response, it won't be coming from the core (at least IMTU), but rather in multiple, and incomprehensibly random, points of our own beloved Charted Space.

 

[Whipsnade]

If I may offer additions/alternatives to your feverishly brilliant postulations...

Kashi,

My feverishly brilliant postulations?

How about OUR feverishly brilliant postulations?

Grandfather wants access to the Galactic Core because singularities are the most efficient information processors in existence -- and the supermassive black hole at the centre of our galaxy is exponentially more powerful than any other singularity for over 2 million light years around. The problem, of course, is that he's new to the scene...

So very nice..... The Ultimate McGuffin...

They are using it for their own godlike purposes, a consequence of which is that kid sisters like Grandfather are denied free access.

Even better... The big kids won't share...

He then provided The Projector, of course, to create a powerful enough motivation to convince the Zhodani to overcome that meme, because they're the people he does want to wander down there.

Getting more brilliant... Peeling back the layers...

The Zhos are moving down the Core Route explicitly in order to make contact with the singularity -- or rather, with one of the many processing nodes orbiting at a 'safe' distance around the singularity.

BINGO!!! Give the man a cigar!!!

Garandfather is trying access the Core supercomputer via a local WiFi "hotspot" and the Zhos are his wire-wrapped Pringles can!

The Zhodani can do this in relative anonymity because that's one of the unique qualities of Terrestrial-based psionic minds. It's essentially why Grandfather decided that Humaniti, Vargr and every other Terran genome he ever peeked into were worth mucking around with in the first place.

Finally. Someone finally has suggested a reason why Grandfather kept mucking about with terrestrial life. There are entire sectors full of worlds with active biospheres between the Regina Subsector and Old Sol. Even if jumping and travel times were trivial, why the hell were Gramps, the Kids, and Grandkids shopping for genomes that far from home?

If there's an Empress Wave, it's a result of what happens once the Zhodani make contact with the singularity.

Love it, absolutely love it. The Wave is a temporary side effect and not an end result. It's like when the dish washer kicks in and the lights dim for an instant. Sure, the Wave's going to wreck havoc with various galactic hoi polloi, but they're almost beneath notice. After all, Grandfather now has his "internet" link to the Central Core Computer!

And if the Primordials have a response, it won't be coming from the core (at least IMTU), but rather in multiple, and incomprehensibly random, points of our own beloved Charted Space.

And that response, or responses, can be left to the future. We just need to clean up the past!


Regards,
Bill

 

[mike wightman]

I love these discussions

So many new ideas to play with.

I too like the supercomputer black hole device, and the Zhodani core route explorations actually triggering the empress wave.
Makes sense from a TNE point of view considering the effects it had on the psionically active.

Maybe the primordials return that was going to be the plot of later DGP adventures was actually:
.1 - a warning to the younger races that the wave was coming
.2 - a scouting mission to direct the empress wave effect
.3 - primordials hunting for grandfather
.4 - primordials themselves fleeing the empress wave
.5 - primordials retracing the zhodani core expedition for payback, the empress wave is just splash damage
.6 - total coincidence, the primordials don't even know what the empress wave is.

 

[Whipsnade]

I love these discussions So many new ideas to play with.

Mike,

So do I.

Now, if I only get to use them...

I too like the supercomputer black hole device, and the Zhodani core route explorations actually triggering the empress wave.

I'll ditto that. I've been putzing around for years with a "reality quake" angle. That is some sort of "natural" occurrence towards or at the Core Grandfather predicted would happen, so he builds a storm cellar and waits. The Core Expeditions and the Route Projector in this case are either inadvertent mistakes, i.e. Gramps left something lying around he shouldn't, or the patsy role I've talked about, i.e. he wants someone to get hit first so he knows when the "storm" is due.

I much prefer Kashi's idea of more deliberate occurrences behind the whole mess.

Makes sense from a TNE point of view considering the effects it had on the psionically active.

Dave Nilsen mentioned a link between jump space and psionics several times, so I simply riffed on that. The Wave effects jump space because it effects psionics and it effects psionics because it effects jump space. Because my early thinking about the Wave cast it as a "natural" occurrence, the effects to jump/psionics were simply side effects much like how hurricanes often spawn tornadoes.

This surreptitious supercomputer access idea could suggest that a psionic effect is/was intended. So a psionic "wavefront" washes across the stage and causes unknown effects to jump drive thanks to Nilsen's jump-psionics link.

I also think Nilsen's cryptic mentions of Wave era or post-Wave era jump space entities is something that no one has really looked into.

Maybe the primordials return that was going to be the plot of later DGP adventures was actually...

Believe it or not, I'd actually go for #6. The Primordials are just visiting their old neighborhood when the feces hits the rotary ventilation device. They might not be actually arriving from the Core, but rather from coreward, and unintended effects of their own activities have obscured, heightened, or become confused with the actual effects of the Wave.


Regards,
Bill

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, which means something even older or more advanced than the primordials could be behind the core super computer and empress wave detonation.

 

[Hemdian]

Or how about ...

Grandfather discovered the existence of the Primordials and predicted their return to known space in 1250 (or whenever). He foresaw his destruction at the hands and conceived a pre-emptive strike. His kids and grandkids thought the plan too extreme and didn’t agree, which resulted in the Ancient’s War.

With them out the way, Grandfather constructed his patsies: tweeked humans would do, but there would be too many extraneous influences in the future on the humans’ homeworld ... so he transplanted them to a more controlled site. He then set them on their goal and retreated into his ‘bunker’. Thus began the Zhodani Core Route expeditions, eventually reaching the galactic core. It’s not some uber-computer but a psionic doomsday device!

What if every trip in jumpspace left an imprint, an after-image, down which anti-psionic energy could flow. The Zho scouts at the core ignite jumpspace and the anti-psionic fire burns back along their path, back to the Zhodani homeworld like a giant fuse, timed to coincide with the Primordial’s return. At each system the psychic energy would burn through to normal space and shine down on the worlds there, irradiating then. Those with little or no travel, or where the local population have little psionic ability, would be largely unscathed, but the Zhodani home system (where the Primordials are due to visit) would be hellish.

This is Grandfather’s endgame for dealing with the Primordials. The Empress Wave is the coming Apocalypse.

(Okay, needs some work but you get the idea.)

 

[Andrew Boulton]

supercomputer black hole device

Isn't that the name of the next Muse album?

 

[Whipsnade]

Hemdian.

So, Grandfather has used jump drive to turn Charted Space into a giant booby trap?

I like it!

And I thought I was the only evil one here!


Regards,
Bill

 

[Hemdian]

And I thought I was the only evil one here!

Muahahaha ... (cough) ... (splutter) ... I mean, well the idea does solve the problem of the simultanety of the Primordials' return and the arrival of the Empress Wave as being just a coincidence. It also provides a mechanism for getting rid of the "baddies from the core" once they arrive.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Bill,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I really appreciate it.

And I remember reading this once before, but in light of the current discussion its fun to point out that our local supermassive is an... oddly quiescent one.

Hmm, which means something even older or more advanced than the primordials could be behind the core super computer and empress wave detonation.

Well, I just use 'Primordials' as a blanket term for anybody who came up before the Yaskodray Bunch. I figure that any one of them could have existed anywhere from a million to upwards of a couple of billion years before the current era.

Every once in a while I try to figure out how far back the first of them could be. At some point, however, I inevitably blow a critical mass of neurons and crap out on it -- usually about the time I'm attempting to mentally collate the emergence of early planet-friendly Type I stars, accretion disc formation time scales, and hypothetical life-form evolutionary rates.

A couple of hours later I reboot, splash a cup of coffee at my face and decide that 3-4 billion years pre-Imperial is 'good enough'.

I never liked the "answers" behind the Final War. Gramps has some big plans, so he summons the Kids and Grandkids. They tell him to shove off, so he decides to impose a retroactive vasectomy. Everyone fights and Gramps eventually wins. Then, instead of carrying on with the Big Plan which started the whole mess, Gramps builds a hole, drops himself into it, and pulls it closed. Huh?

Yeah, I found that scenario profoundly unsatisfactory, too. And the sole source for this entire bedtime story is Grandfather himself. He's not revealing anything to us with this 'fate of The Ancients' fairy tale of his -- except that he thinks we're a bunch of morons.

I also think Nilsen's cryptic mentions of Wave era or post-Wave era jump space entities is something that no one has really looked into.

My original (and slightly obsolete) IMTU take on the Final War was that Grandfather had to purge his brood because they'd been compromised by 'Primordial elements'. At some point he and his gang achieved a level of technology that an earlier race regarded as a personal threat. These beings, who are highly psionic and experience reality primarily through the upper 7 dimensions of existence that we primitives call 'jump space', reacted by seizing control of Grandfather's assets.

The reason the 'war' wasn't over instantaneously was that Droyne are better than 99.9% of all n-space sentients at defending against them, but even they are only quite imperfectly so. Grandfather finally stumbled upon the Unique Psionics of Terra, and by drafting them into the cause he was able to buy enough time to craft an organised and thorough retreat for himself. Everything he's done since then (the Zhodani, the Vargr, the coynes and even the Vilani) has been about gradually and imperceptibly resetting the chess board in his favour.

I'm adjusting this history now, in light of the Singularity Computer angle, but the jump aliens are still gonna be there. Well, actually... they have to be there, since I've already used them in at least one rather intense Foreven Sector encounter.

I too like the supercomputer black hole device, and the Zhodani core route explorations actually triggering the empress wave.

If the Zhodani are triggering it with their expedition, then I see it more as a localised psionic pulse than a wave. Although by 'localised' I mean all of Charted Space, so from our teeny tiny perspective it might as well be a wave.

Or maybe Grandfather was told to stay away from The Core because, ultimately, he has no idea what he's doing. In which case a galaxy-wide phenomenon it may very well be...

Dave Nilsen also once pointed out that psionics in Traveller has qualities that mimic FTL communication, so whatever comes freaking its way out of The Core may very well appear to move faster than the speed of light. Much faster, in fact.

Isn't that the name of the next Muse album?

Grandfather does all his plotting to Muse songs. He pumps himself up every morning with a pot of coffee and a couple of choruses of 'Uprising' in the shower.

 

[kafka47]

Why did Grandfather seed so much from Terra was one of the questions (posed earlier)? Truth be told, Boys & Girls probably most of the worlds that we encounter out there...are going to be rockballs. It was the Droyne who transformed them into the worlds that make up Charted Space...and Terra just happened to be some of the Garden Worlds, in which the Ancients could draw upon a rich biosphere and seed it to create the abundance that is out there now in the OTU. So, sure he took from other worlds and inculcated and pruned different species, tailored them, and did what any TL 35 Gardener would do...save his Garden was all of Chartered Space. The way I see it, Grandfather is not God (or Deity of your choosing) but he is the ultimate farmer whose methods we could never deduce.

I am not sure that I like the idea that Jumpspace was a bombed out effect...I prefer it as infrastructure for something larger...as the other tech that the Ancients so supposedly had mastered such as pocket universes and moving entire stars systems make more sense as well as portals. Certainly the Droyne feared the Knightfall Primordials for as any with psionic potential would go mad...and as natural psions (witness the Chirper invisibility) they would reason to fear what they cannot understand.

Having said that I do also like the idea of the singularity at the Centre of the Galaxy being a supercomputer.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

"Charted" -- (1) Mapped, showing significant data, such as for a region of space; (2) Recorded, such as on a cartesian graph.

"Chartered" -- (1) Documented, such as for the creation of a social organization; (2) Hired, such as a small watercraft might be.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Grandad and his offspring was glossed over.

Ask yourself the following questions? Did the kids try to put Grandad in a nursing home or were they smarter than Grandpa?

The fight they had wasn't simply an arguement over what they had for dinner.

What if one of his kids went looking for something to read one day and found out Grandpa was lying through his teeth about how he became Grandpa, super-genius? The kid was smart enough to keep his mouth shut. Then several thousand family reunion later Grandpa made a suggest that endangered the welfare of the family and Junior spoke up?

Grandpa isn't the kindly old gent Traveller seems to portray him as. He rally his people to build the first Jump Drive and got his way too. That means he was a dang good leader, which probably made his head swell, to the point he was supreme pain in the butt. Either his children realized he was power mad or there was something else going on within their ranks. Grandpa used that to his advantage and began thinning out the herd or the children were infighting to see who would take over from Grandpa?

Grandpa is either in a bunker or a prison.

If he's in a bunker then everything in this post fits that scenario.
If he's in a prison then one of his children made a mess of things.

 

[Whipsnade]

Grandpa is either in a bunker or a prison.

Rigel,

Grandfather in prison is a delightfully nasty idea.

First your lovely deck plans and now a superbly evil twist on the whole Ancients story. I must say, Rigel, that you're fitting in well!


Regards,
Bill

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Tanks, however I do have a plot twist for the scenriao (Misspelled) for the one present here.

Let's say Grandpa, super genius is in a bunker and everything you say is true (since my only information is this threat). The wave hit key elements of his defenses knocking them out, it also gave him a nasty booboo and he's quite angry now. So he want to send a little message of his own...

...A top Imperium scientist discover a way of netrualizing the wave and restores psions to there former glory...

Grandpa implanted that idea in the sceintist tiny little brain...

...Said scientist goes to a high ranking member in the Imperial Intelligent Service (ISS) who is also a psion and a member of the Moot (who is a psion who has been affected by the wave). Saying he has away of stopping the wave before it destroys all the psions in the Imperium. Score one point for Imperium and the Zhoe's zip. The IIS want proof and scientist cures said member of Moot. Starting to see the big picture...

Grandpa did and has manuplated IIS in order to set off his little surprise in enemy territory.
Thus giving someone a great idea for a campaign.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Ask yourself the following question? Did the kids try to put Grandad in a nursing home or were they smarter than Grandpa?

Droyne don't have nursing homes, because there's no such thing as a senescent Droyne. Nearly all Droyne end their own lives ('krinaytsyu') when they are no longer useful to their group ('oytrip').

What if one of his kids went looking for something to read one day and found out Grandpa was lying through his teeth about how he became Grandpa, super-genius? The kid was smart enough to keep his mouth shut. Then several thousand family reunion later Grandpa made a suggest that endangered the welfare of the family and Junior spoke up?

All Droyne are absolutely committed to their oytrip, even to the detriment of themselves or other oytrips. Grandfather, no doubt, regards the entire Droyne race as his oytrip; his children, on the other hand, were each (by design) devoted to their own.

As I see it then, the breakdown happened for one of two reasons: A) Grandfather's behaviour and/or leadership became controversial, but without any universal agreement on whether it was detrimental to the Droyne race as a whole, or B) the child/grandchild oytrips had differentiated far enough, and stepped on each others' toes often enough, that Grandfather could no longer enforce a racial unity amongst them.

Here's a thought: perhaps the Singularity Computer wasn't just causing conflict between Grandfather and the Primordials, but within the competing oytrips of the Droyne race. Perhaps Grandfather told them that only he would be allowed access, or perhaps a 'favoured son' oytrip was given way too many of the primo Singularity assignments in the eyes of the others. Or perhaps rival oytrips' surreptitious Core Route projects kept running into each other, each time wrecking some otherwise carefully laid-out, 2,000-year plan...

Grandpa isn't the kindly old gent Traveller seems to portray him as. He rally his people to build the first Jump Drive and got his way too. That means he was a dang good leader, which probably made his head swell, to the point he was supreme pain in the butt. Either his children realized he was power mad or there was something else going on within their ranks. Grandpa used that to his advantage and began thinning out the herd or the children were infighting to see who would take over from Grandpa?

Grandfather isn't portrayed as that kindly in Traveller. He wiped out millions, perhaps even billions, of his own kind, and often obliterated entire planetary biospheres in order to do it. The Zhodani were almost wiped out by a leftover bioweapon he or one of his allies set in place, and the Vilani were kept running in terror from rampaging Ancient killbots for millennia after the Final War was over. If he were a human, we'd probably label him a psychopath. But he's not human, and likely quite sane from within the context of his own race.

In a similar vein, I don't think Grandfather's ego is much of an issue here, mainly because I just don't see Droyne as having individual egos -- not even Grandfather. Just like describing private property to a K'kree is problematic, explaining the term 'power mad' to a Droyne is probably just an exercise in futility.

Grandpa is either in a bunker or a prison.

Well, my inclination is to the former, but how about a third option? Perhaps what he's sitting in isn't so much of a bunker, nor a prison, but rather more like a duck blind...

PS: I just got a look at those deck plans of yours, and I just gotta agree that those are some pretty nice pieces of work!

 

[aramis]

I do believe his pocket universe constitutes a bunker more than a prison. And, given that he's got access to well faster than jump 6 drives...

 

[Rigel Stardin]

G.K. Anderson.

Grandpa comes from an age where the culture he grew up in change the course of history for his people. Later when he decide his offspring had outgrown him, their usefulness or made contact with the Elder races, he alter the society once more through the use of war. Therefore the culture we see in Traveller today is not nessarily the one he was brought up in.

It may not be a good example to site here but Alien Nation (TV Show) tried to show the conflict between races as well as the changes going on in the aliens society. There are also real world examples as well. The North American Indian had a deverse reaction to Europeans coming into to their lands.

We must also remember that Traveller has been influenced by the "Chariot of the Gods".

So Grandpa was tampering with Humans but who was tampering with his race? And why is he so fearful that he is hiding in his bunker, or in his Duck blind waiting for the next duck to fly by?

 

[kafka47]

I had some of Grandfather's children in prison but not the Droyne himself...while that is an interesting take on the Pandorica or the temporary experiment gone horribly awry which had the consquence of creating Jump Space...I don't think so... Pappy steps in and out of Charted Space with too much regularity...I would rather see him as a Warden or Gatekeeper...as in Kafka (coincidences abound in this small universe) short story in which a gatekeeper dies at his post long past the sentence and civilization that incarcerated the criminal has past away.

So I would say it is with pappy, long past caring just does what he wants...and has minions carry on the Cold War just as Gar has hypothesized.