Ancients question

[JAFARR]

Is it possible that there are more than one very old civilization that existed in the distant past? Could that explain why some of the tech that is attributed to "The Ancients" be so hard to replicate because it doesn't match what has been worked out of the parts modern scientists have been able to duplicate or copy like the black globes?



[If this fits better in another forum, would a mod be kind enough to put it in the proper place?]

 

[Seriayne]

Actually, there are several, even canon, and one even potentially higher tech than the ancients, 'ancient races'.

The adventure MegaTraveller campaign/adventure Knightfall deals with one.

But as for possible, well that's up to you, really. :>

 

[mike wightman]

There is a sidebar in the MT referee's manual that mentions there were many ancient civilisations that predate the Ancients - the first Starfarers.

Intelligent life first began sublight travel between the stars more than a billion years ago.
Short-lived beings found sublight travel tedious and frustrating and contented themselves with comfinement to a few star systems.
Longer lived races ranged far and wide using generation ships, cold sleep, and even electronic personality transfers

The primordials of the Knightfall adventure were going to be a major plot device in future DGP adventures that never saw the light of day unfortunately - they used a psionic based jump drive.

 

[BlackBat242]

The Sheewash Drive!


See The Witches of Karres, James H. Schmidt, 1966

 

[JAFARR]

Thanks Guys. Either I didn't read those references or more likely I forgot over the years. I have Knightfall on the shelf, but didn't remember that the Ancients weren't the source of the items in it.

 

[kafka47]

Well, I have always taken Ancients to mean plural civilizations otherwise we would simply say the Ancient Civilization. True, canon is papering somewhat over that by postulating it refers to the multipicity of monads created by Granddad's kids...but I just don't accept that. Also, what mutation would create the supergenius of granddad when the Droyne had long plateaued at TL A? When I was working on an Ancients sourcebook, Marc suggested that I look at Lensman as the basis.

 

[Gray Lensman]

Marc suggested that I look at Lensman as the basis.

In the Lensman Books (by E.E. (Doc) Smith), The human race was uplifted (?) by Mentor (forget the name of the race offhand) :nonono:.

Perhaps Grandfather was himself uplifted by a previous race (the Primordials from Knightfall?) perhaps this prior great race was dying out and Grandfather was their legacy.

Fold, Spin. Mutilate, ect. ect.

(you would think I would remember the name of the race [if it was ever given, haven't read those books in 20 yrs] given that I have used my handle since starting to play Tradewars 2002 in 1993) :nonono::nonono:.

 

[mike wightman]

They are called the Arisians.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Interesting ... each millenia is marked by one or more dominant species, each "uplifted" by a previous species that is now (actually or virtually) extinct.

1 - Progenitors
2 - Primordials
3 - Ancients
4 - Humaniti
5 - ???

 

[socar37]

Interesting ... each millenia is marked by one or more dominant species, each "uplifted" by a previous species that is now (actually or virtually) extinct.

1 - Progenitors
2 - Primordials
3 - Ancients
4 - Humaniti
5 - ???

5 - **Virus/Cyms**
Just look at TNE:1248

SoCar-37

 

[kafka47]

One of the classic tropes of Science Fiction is Ascension...which is odd, I always distained it for its quasi-religious overtones. However, I never had problems with sentients taking their organic brain and uploading it into computers and eventually back into organic bodies.

Yup, you got the right lensmen...So as Marc envisioned it, imagine Supercharged humans and others darting around a huge amount of space. I speculated each "Child" of Grandfather would command over a standard Imperial Sector for their experiments. Humans such as the Zhodani would be telegraphic messagers thereby explaining their later proclivity to psionics. I also took the section in which it explained the origins of Angels & Demons being the Droyne to be an unwritten code that was inscribed upon countless species. Taken a cue from Star Trek and 2300AD, there were to be Intergalactic Invaders simply known as the Enemy. Lots of TL 15 civilizations just to muddle to waters of later archelogists.

 

[Gray Lensman]

They are called the Arisians.

DOH! .

Thanx Mike

 

[G. Fieendish]

Interesting ... each millenia is marked by one or more dominant species, each "uplifted" by a previous species that is now (actually or virtually) extinct.

1 - Progenitors
2 - Primordials
3 - Ancients
4 - Humaniti
5 - ???

According to DGP's Solomani/Aslan sourcebook, Orcas, 2 species of Dolphin, & possibly Chimpanzees/Orangutans were "Uplifted" by Solomani genetic engineering...

 

[Hemdian]

I tend to harmonise the appearance of Ancient tech IMTU, taking a cue from the article on Victoria (JTAS #2). And IMTU the Primordials didn’t uplift the Ancients, far from it: The real reason behind the Ancient’s war was Grandfather discovered the existence of the Primordials and got scared they’d destroy him. So he wanted to hide and used the destruction of the war to cover over the fact he was still around. (Shades of “Heechee Rendezvous” and Call of Cthulhu”.)

Additionally, the Ancients range was primarily the area of the CT books (“Known Space”) and there are/were other old races in other parts of the galaxy. Generally the closer you get to the galactic core, the older the ‘first’ race. (There’s nothing in the core itself as planet’s cannot form: all star systems there have planetoid belts only.) This is relevant to anyone playing a Zhodani Core Route based campaign.

One near-core race never developed conventional spaceflight but were able to direct their influence via other dimensions (inspired in part by “Invasion Earth” by the BBC). They ‘colonise’ other worlds by inducing xenomorphic biogenesis in a host race (cause it to mutate into the target race, effectively wiping out the host race). The only real defence was the widespread use of nanites to ‘replace’ the function of DNA.

In another region of space a starfaring race were destroyed by their own machines. A cross between GURPS Reign of Steel and the Terminator films/series.

 

[Whipsnade]

The real reason behind the Ancient’s war was Grandfather discovered the existence of the Primordials and got scared they’d destroy him. So he wanted to hide and used the destruction of the war to cover over the fact he was still around. (Shades of “Heechee Rendezvous” and Call of Cthulhu”.)

Hemdian,

That's pretty much been my take on the Yaskodray story IMTU since the Droyne AM came out and well before Knightfall was penned. Grandfather became aware of the races and beings who had preceded him, grew very cautious for unknown reasons, decided to bunker up for a couple hundred thousand years, ordered the Kids and Grandkids to join him, and the wheels came off. Cue the history of Chartered Space from there.

And, yes, the Heechee books and my fellow Providence native Mr. Lovecraft provided lots of mental feed stock for my musings.

My spin on the Zhodani Core Explorations is even darker: Grandfather has manipulated the Consulate into acting as his mine shaft canaries. What ever he fears is going to come roaring out of the Core will hit the Exploration Route first and that will give Gramps time to react. Sadly, we'll never know if GDW was taking the Empress Wave in that direction and M:1248's version of the Wave is oddly dissatisfying.

I never fleshed out my low suspicions because I never really used them in a campaign or adventure. I ran a heavily modified version of SotA off Andor and Candory as the culmination of a free trader campaign, but the payers never met Gramps. More accurately, the players tried everything they could not to meet Gramps.

In between Yaskodray's heyday and the rise of the Vilani, I've always assumed there were oodles of spacefaring - not FTL capable, mind you, but spacefaring - groups bumbling around Charted Space.

They're one reason why Yaskodray pops his head out and looks around every so often. He wants to make sure only his patsies develop jump drive and fall for the bait he so patiently crafted to lure them down the Core Route...


Regards,
Bill

 

[kafka47]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] They're one reason why Yaskodray pops his head out and looks around every so often. He wants to make sure only his patsies develop jump drive and fall for the bait he so patiently crafted to lure them down the Core Route...[/FONT]

Brilliant...I think we have all been thinking the same way on this. However, you conclusion somehow reminded me of the phrase from Alice & Wonderland of going down the Rabbit Hole. To that I end, I propose the Ancients (Droyne or otherwise) developed super luminary wormholes that and jumpspace paths are merely the girders that keep this whole hyperspatial structure together.

Yes, I always liked the Invasion from the beeb. For me it is the ultimate Cthulhu Now scenario...adapting it to Traveller would be interesting but I would rather take the cue from the exploding TARDIS something rupturing into all points of Space/Time continuously. Rather than demonizing the Primordials, perhaps, one Grandfather's future experiments (taking place well past the 4th Imperium) went horribly wrong and has consequences that threaten to re-write the past. Which would explain parts of GT. A sort of temporal explosion...

 

[Whipsnade]

Brilliant...I think we have all been thinking the same way on this.

Kafka,

It's been what? Nearly fifteen years since TNE died and the answers we wanted didn't fly out of the coffin before they poured the concrete into the hole? There have been scads of us sitting at home on some cold winter's night, sipping a single malt, watching the wood stove, mulling over how it ALL fits together, and posting messages to BBSs, mailing lists, and forums.

It's a law of large numbers thing. I'm mortally certain way I see the pieces fitting together has nothing to do with anything I've actually created. I'm also mortally certain the way I see the pieces fitting together has everything to do with the conversations I've had with everyone else over the years.

To that I end, I propose the Ancients (Droyne or otherwise) developed super luminary wormholes that and jumpspace paths are merely the girders that keep this whole hyperspatial structure together.

Oh... that's so... GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!

Jump drive, indeed to ability to even access jump space, is all the result actions undertaken by the Ancients. You can only jump in those regions where these Ancient manipulations took place. Stray too far outside of Chartered Space, and only the Aslan, Solomani, and Hivers have begun to do that just now, and your jump drives no longer work. So...

... jump as we know it only works in a certain region of our galaxy.

And we're just now beginning to reach the edges of that region.

(Of course, jump works along the Core Route so Grandfather's patsies won't get too discouraged.)

Yaskodray travelled by STL for millennia. He was immortal and his servants were almost immortal, so time didn't matter. Then he stumbles across evidence of the Primordials and their psionic FTL capabilties. He quickly redevelops that technology for himself and his Kin as they all have psionic abilities at the levels which are needed. This leaves out the rest of the Droyne however and Grandfather occasionally needs their help too.

So he does something to space across this part of the galaxy that allows the Droyne to mimic the psionic FTL drive via mechanical means. It's not perfect, among other things there's a six parsec cap, but it's better than Grandfather, the Kids, and the Grandkids having to act as taxi drivers every time some Droyne needed to be moved.

Skip forward a few millennia and Grandfather begins to realize that his twisting of space as a way to avoid schlepping Droyne around like an over scheduled soccer mom was akin to pissing in the pool. The Primordials and the rest are due back sometime and they might not be happy with the changes he's made to the very fabric of the universe. So, Gramps cleans up the best he can and hunkers down to wait for their visit.

Rather than demonizing the Primordials...

No need to demonize them when they simply could be beyond our comprehension, right?

... perhaps, one Grandfather's future experiments (taking place well past the 4th Imperium) went horribly wrong and has consequences that threaten to re-write the past. Which would explain parts of GT. A sort of temporal explosion...

Brilliant! And he forted up to survive the resultant reality quake!

I never liked the "answers" behind the Final War. Gramps has some big plans, so he summons the Kids and Grandkids. They tell him to shove off, so he decides to impose a retroactive vasectomy. Everyone fights and Gramps eventually wins. Then, instead of carrying on with the Big Plan which started the whole mess, Gramps builds a hole, drops himself into it, and pulls it closed. Huh?

There simply had to be more to the story than that. Thanks for telling me more of the story!


Regards,
Bill

 

[mike wightman]

There's a lot more to this than this short message but here goes.
IMTU grandfather did indeed create jumpspace. He detonated a device which created the jump space interface that spread at light speed throughout known space and then into the further reaches of the galaxy.
This was to allow a mechanical means to access a form of teleportation.

Unfortunately a few thousand years ago this expanding jump space interface bubble arrived at the area of space occupied by one of the remaining first starfarer races.

They built and detonated a counter device - we know the affects of this as the Empress Wave.

 

[Whipsnade]

Unfortunately a few thousand years ago this expanding jump space interface bubble arrived at the area of space occupied by one of the remaining first starfarer races. They built and detonated a counter device - we know the affects of this as the Empress Wave.

Mike,

Beautiful, simply exquisitely beautiful...

Here's a ruffle you may have already toyed with...

Sometime after Grandfather's device gave jump travel to the non-psionic masses, he noticed his own psionic jump abilities were being effected. The interference was subtle, but noticeable and growing more so as time progressed.

Making matters worse, it seemed the effects on the psionic jump abilities of the Primordials/Others were much worse. After encountering evidence of their ability, Grandfather had developed his own ability and the method he developed wasn't exactly the same as their earlier method.

Grandfather knew or inferred that the Primordials/Others had migrated to the Core in order to hand around the event horizon of the black hole there for reasons even Grandfather could only guess at. He knew the "wave front" of his device would eventually reach the Core and announce his presence to the Primordials and Others there. What would be their response to Grandfather "pissing in the pool"?

He wasn't going to wait to find out.

Everything else follows as earlier stated. Grandfather 'cleans up" the region he's been operating in, forts up in his Own Private Idaho, and sets up a former slave species to act as his patsies or tripwire in order that he can be warned of any response from the "Elders" hanging around the Core's event horizon.

The Empress Wave is that response, but what sort of a response is it?

Will it "reset" jump space so only psionic jumps can work? Or will it "fix" Grandfather's original "mistake" by allowing mechanical jump abilties that won't interfere to with the psionic method?

Or is it just an attack with little regard for the fallout?


Regards,
Bill

 

[Seriayne]

Two minor things -

One:

If Grandfather's 'device' wavefront is what triggered the Core aliens reaction, was it going slower than light?

If it was going lightspeed then:

Galaxy's only about 100k ly across, and our neck of the woods isn't even way out on the end of a spiral - Terra's about 25k years from.

Assuming a relatively 'immediate' response from the core (give or take a millenia or so), what was going on about 50k years ago? Grandfather regifting fallen Droyne with the ability to cast as far as I can remember.

If the 'splody that caused them to react was going lightspeed during the height of the Ancient's period (300k'ish years ago), then what took the Core aliens so long to react?

Two:

A) What if the J-Space Bomb has diminishing returns - Jump 6 in Known Space and about say, x 100 ly radius, J5 y beyond that, 4, 3, etc. Maybe the Core bomb (Empress Wave) is a much BIGGER version of the same thing, to make the rest of the galaxy accessible?

Or B) what if the diminishing return fades with time past the burst ("In Ancients Times, J36 was common - they don't make Jump Drives like they used to.") The Core Bomb could be Grandfather's 'jump start' to get things back to the way they were in the old days, softening up jump-space all over again, though this doesn't explain his hiding - unless there was a temporary negative side effect in the immediate aftermath (Empress Wave screws with Psion if you're not in a pocket universe, etc.?)

Or C) as B) above, but the Core Bomb is Core Aliens method of blanketing the galaxy in nifty jump juice, setting up their infrastructure to hunt Gramps down with J36 ships.

------------------------------------

Just a side note on the Empress Wave - I always had a problem with it moving lightspeed and the Zhodani not reacting at the Imperial Border until roughly TNE. (I do note there's an uncharacteristic long strand of the 'Consulate' in the Vanguard Reaches, well away from the wavefront at that timeframe - advanced escape path/cultural zone for buying time to find a solution/cure/coping method?) There'd have been disturbing silence at least, or the awful symptoms and panic, for MILLENIA before it reached the marches.

If it was moving FTL, it woulda made the shock of its arrival much more of a surprise, and if it was moving as fast or faster than jump, it would only have been initiated within the last century prior to its arrival. Strephon's psionic Zhodani monitoring stations would have been able to go dark (and get word back to Strephon) in a timeframe much more sensible to the Hard Times scenario. It seemed like those monitoring stations were deep in, or even beyond, the Vargr Extents.

Unless his psionic Zhodani monitoring system that freaked out from the Empress Wave was part of a FTJ telepathic network - something even Gramps might find a little disconcerting.