After the MGT debacle, T5 may not look so bad...

[Maladominus]

There's something strange a-happen' insida me...

I wasn't excited about T5 at all. I felt, from what I'd seen, it was based "too much" on T4. But, now, MGT has exploded, with all its not-so-greatness into my view, and I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

The "strange change" a-happen' insida me is....

Whatsa matta you? Ya talkin' like-a Joisey gangsta now, Sup 4?

Get away from da root beer, pal.

 

[Supplement Four]

It's no worse than any other task system, and is stronger than many, including the 2DRH that we all know and love.

Interesting, Rob. In what way do you think that task system is superior than 2DRH?

 

[Supplement Four]

Whatsa matta you? Ya talkin' like-a Joisey gangsta now, Sup 4?

Whatas matta me? Whatas matta YOU!

Hey, Franky, you want I should put my head in the toilet or sumphin? Eh?

You a good kid. Here's a coupla C-notes. Anna I'm not talkin' 'bout no music, either. Take your old lady out onna town and haph a good time on me. Go ahead. Take it.

Wot? Ya dunno like my green?

Getoutta kid. Ya botherin' me.

 

[robject]

Interesting, Rob. In what way do you think that task system is superior than 2DRH?

Superior's a bit of a loaded term, maybe. I'll just say stronger.

It's all about the modifiers. 2D starts to break after a +2DM or so. Mechanics exist to deal with that, but it's an inadequacy that you can't directly add in any of Classic Traveller's basic, already extant values into the task roll, without swamping the 2D... the workaround is to (1) divide up characteristic, and (2) grant a +1DM for "other things", and (3) don't think about any of those other things you know about your character, or environment, or equipment quality, or whatever. Or, perhaps, (4) break up the task into several tasks. We never did that in our group, but it's an option. But all those options are stunted due to 2D.

Look at CT's freight rules. TL difference is a direct DM, but it doesn't overwhelm the mechanic because the system used there is nD. It's a different application, but serves as an illustration of how I think about it.

As for Roll High, it's intuitive to me, too. And yet, even CT chose to break with it at least once: the roll to be harassed by the local authorities is 2D < Law Level, i.e. Roll Low. Why didn't they just write "2D > Law Level to avoid being harassed"?

So, CT never made 2DRH its religion -- it knew it was better to shove the 2dRH aside and do something else, because it wasn't strong enough to handle it.

By the way, that's not necessarily an argument against 2DRH -- doing something else 5% of the time is good Huffman encoding. I'm just arguing that GDW knew of the weaknesses of 2DRH from the start.

 

[Supplement Four]

It's all about the modifiers. 2D starts to break after a +2DM or so.

I've been trying to tell the MGTers this on the Mongoose board (I actually gave up), but nobody over there really gives a damn about it. The MGT stats are too powerful--too much of a benefit provided on every throw the character makes. It's stat bloat.

Nobody can see my point.

This is the main reason I went with a "sometime" +1 DM when concerning stats with the UGM. It's for balance in the 2DRH system.

It's hard to explain, and many gamers just don't "get" it, or they don't care, or something...because it's being ignored (and, it was ignored in the ACT playtest too).



Interesting post, Rob. I've got more comments, but I'm short on time at the moment.

 

[aramis]

No, S4, it is not that no one can see your point, but instead that some of us see it, and disagree.

 

[Ishmael]

It's hard to explain, and many gamers just don't "get" it, or they don't care, or something...because it's being ignored (and, it was ignored in the ACT playtest too).

While I can't speak for other gamers, I have different viewpoint on the skills vs stats argument. It doesn't mean I 'don't "get" it' , it just means I see their roles as dm's in a way thats not the same as yours. I might even say that you 'don't "get" it' because you use them in another way than I do.

I can think of examples where stats would outweigh skills; a dex4 gun-5 would be a wonderful and knowledgable gunsmith, yet shoot more poorly than a dex12 gun-1 who has a steady hand but doesn't know too well how to re-load hs own ammo. A couple of examples you've posted in the past use int dm's in what are in inappropriate ways, IMHO.

Please understand that there is a difference between 'not "getting" it' or "don't care or something" and not sharing your views on the subject. We each play our own way.

 

[Supplement Four]

I can think of examples where stats would outweigh skills; a dex4 gun-5 would be a wonderful and knowledgable gunsmith, yet shoot more poorly than a dex12 gun-1 who has a steady hand but doesn't know too well how to re-load hs own ammo. A couple of examples you've posted in the past use int dm's in what are in inappropriate ways, IMHO.

The argument about what a stat is used for is only part of what I was saying on the Mongoose boards.

The other part (the part I said people don't seem to "get") is that much more than a +2 DM on a 2D6 system tends to break it, as Rob has said above.

When you're adding skill...and then an average +1 - +2 DM for stat also, you're adding to the problem of breaking the 2D6 system.

Take away the DM for stat, and you're doing yourself, and your 2D6 system, a favor.

People don't seem to "get" that.

 

[Ishmael]

so a 333333 sword-4 is always better than an ffffff sword-2?
stats add nothing to the odds of success?
no...we simply disagree.

We also disagree with the issue of 'breaking' a 2d6 system.
dm's merely move the curve up or down a set range. Move the difficulty's success number up or down the same amount and nothing's changed. Its about balancing difficulty and dm's for and against. When tasks are harder, a combination of skills and stats helps success.
And if you have dm's relying on more than 2 things, you probably could break the task down into more sub-tasks instead. That helps fight against dm bloat in itself.

But then again, we use different rules ( yay MT modified ), so of course we will have different experiences on this matter.

 

[Supplement Four]

so a 333333 sword-4 is always better than an ffffff sword-2?
stats add nothing to the odds of success?
no...we simply disagree.

Let's put this in a better perspective. Who would you like operating on your gunshot wound? You're about to die. We've got an extreme expert in the Stat-3, Medical-4 specialist. Or, you can have the charge nurse of the Emergency Room, who's Stat-15, Medical-2.

In real life, you'd want the Medical-4 specialist, right?

You should, if you value your life.



BTW, my UGM task system (which looks an awful lot like what MGT is using, sans the T/E mechanic, sans the stat-bloat DMs) would hardly ever give the Stat-3 character a bonus to the roll--and then it would only be on very simple tasks. So, that person would be +4 on the dice.

OTOH, the Stat-15 characer would would receive a +1 DM on every throw, and another +1 DM (total of +2 DM) on Easy and Average difficulty tasks.

Thus, the UGM models stats better. The pitiful low stat dude will only get a stat bonus when the task is extremly simple (and, chances are, he won't need the bonus to succeed anyway).

OTOH, the extreme stat dude will always get a +1 DM, and he's got a good chance of increasing that to +2 DM when the task isn't difficult.

So, when using the UGM, the Stat-3 Medical-4 character will get a +4 DM on his medical roll for the gunshot wound. But, the Stat-15 Medical-2 will get a total +3 DM.

This way, stat is represented, but it doesn't overpower skill.

And, that's a superior way of doing things with the 2D6RH for 8+ method than what Mongoose has come up with.

 

[aramis]

No one is arguing that your methodology doesn't do what you think it does.

What we're saying is we don't feel that what it does is accurate.

Many of us really would rather have that Dex 15 Navy Corpsman cutting the bullet out than the dex 3 skill 4 fumbling old GP with 40 years of practice, and quite possibly a case of parkinsons... But when it comes to which drugs, I'd rather have the medical 2 intern...

Medical practice is one area where most games ARE unrealistic, and it is so for reasons of playability.

Which would you rather have shooting at you: Dex 3 ACR 4, or Dex15 ACR 2.
I want Mr. Parkinsons shooting... he's more likely to miss on the first shot.

And yes, I do equate Dex 3 with early onset parkinsons, or mild Muscular Dystrophy, or cerebral palsy. Dex 2 is noticeable, and dex 1 is barely functioning, stumbling as he walks, and barely able to hold onto the walker....

 

[Gallowglacht]

Exactly, how much each contributes depends not only on each skill, but each use of that skill. We are unlikely to agree on an exact ratio.
GURPS takes it into consideration with the modifier to each skill depending on difficulty of the skill (heck for that matter AD&D 2E did with proficiencies). But, for me, GURPS goes into too much detail at the cost of pace during play. (from experience, currently playing GURPS delta green).

It's all very subjective.

 

[Supplement Four]

No one is arguing that your methodology doesn't do what you think it does.

What we're saying is we don't feel that what it does is accurate.

I guess that's why you play MT, where stat influences every roll, and I play CT, where stat rarely influences the roll.

I come from the CT perspective. You come from the MT perspective.

I say MT has some stat-bloat because of this. You say that MT's task system is an improvement over the one in CT.

Subjective, yes.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Well, I'm definitely looking forward to T5. I've got little or no baggage from earlier systems, so I'm not worried about how similar/different it is from CT/MT/etc. I'm loving what I'm hearing about sophont, robot, equipment, etc. generation and the implications it has for designing a setting for my campaign. I'm loving the MWM technical, detail-oriented attitude toward the game design as well.

I'm less interested in MGT, not because of the various efforts to characterize the system as dead on arrival, but because I'm interested in the "ultimate ruleset" - not on a consumer version with flashy colours designed to bring in new players. I'm not intimidated by 1000+ pages of stuff with drier art and less glossy pages.

I've been drawn to Traveller (after decades without playing it) because of the exacting feel of hard-sf. There's something special about the Traveller setting that has nothing to do with oddball UWPs, 2D6 RH, or any of that. It's the feel of 3I, the vast distances and challenges of space travel, the social, political and economic diversity possible in even a single subsector. The details, the details the details. I'm pumped to grab a hold of a new system and create something awesome with it.

 

[Foxroe]

... I'm interested in the "ultimate ruleset" - not on a consumer version with flashy colours designed to bring in new players. I'm not intimidated by 1000+ pages of stuff with drier art and less glossy pages.

Funny you should say that. I was just thinking about how cool I thought Traveller was when it first came out in those LBB's... and those LBB's had no flash whatsoever!

I'm hoping that T5 has that same feel.

-Fox

 

[Zparkz]

I doubt T5 will have that feeling. Either way, I'll use it to mine out what I can use in my campaign. As a GM you can't get enough tools to help you design a world and setting.

 

[robject]

And yes, I do equate Dex 3 with early onset parkinsons, or mild Muscular Dystrophy, or cerebral palsy. Dex 2 is noticeable, and dex 1 is barely functioning, stumbling as he walks, and barely able to hold onto the walker....

That's a great way of looking at the characteristics. Thanks for the color.

 

[robject]

I doubt T5 will have that feeling. Either way, I'll use it to mine out what I can use in my campaign. As a GM you can't get enough tools to help you design a world and setting.

I agree - again, it's got a lot more "stuff" than CT. It shouldn't feel heavier, but it could -- that's a possible side effect of "building out" a system.

Regarding the 2DRH task system: we've probably played it with -5 to +5 DMs before. For my group, it's very hard to notice if a task system is "broken" (exception: raw T4 made itself clear to the referee). We just want to throw some dice and see something happen, under the expert guidance of a referee with storyline and flexibility. If it works ok, then it's fine.

 

[Perseus]

I agree - again, it's got a lot more "stuff" than CT. It shouldn't feel heavier, but it could -- that's a possible side effect of "building out" a system.

Regarding the 2DRH task system: we've probably played it with -5 to +5 DMs before. For my group, it's very hard to notice if a task system is "broken" (exception: raw T4 made itself clear to the referee). We just want to throw some dice and see something happen, under the expert guidance of a referee with storyline and flexibility. If it works ok, then it's fine.

Hmmm... I agree. "If it works Ok, then It's fine" I'm looking fwd to T5 for much the same reasons as stated in this thread, and sure it may well be a bit "heavier", but the chances are you will well be able to take what you need out of it.

 

[tbeard1999]

Or, one could use stats and skills for different things.

That's what I generally do. I think that the 2d6 "bell curve" is too granular to accomodate both attribute modifiers and skill modifiers (and difficulty/situation mods, which have to be accomodated).

So, the rule of thumb in my games is if the action is covered by a skill, make a skill roll, with no bonuses for attributes. If it isn't covered by a skill, make an attribute roll. Very infrequently, I may apply a +1 for exceptional attributes on challenging skill rolls. Exceptional in my campaign is 10+. An example might be a surgeon with DEX 10 who's performing a particularly difficult surgery.

(By the way, one way to allow more modifiers into your game without breaking the 2d6 system is to allow modifiers to eliminate penalties. This will allow you to have the modifier, but help mitigate the automatic success problem that seems to arise in Traveller).