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After the MGT debacle, T5 may not look so bad...

I, myself use a att/3 variant of MT on my own. I also fool around with:

success margin+pen-av+1d6..
the 1d6 lets it have similar range of numbers as AHL tables and gives an idea of hit location too..6=head down to 1=flesh wound

I never bought T4 because I hate having to throw fistfuls of dice. That's also the reason I dislike GURPS.

I liked Foss' artwork. It is certainly better than much of the 'art' on RPG's. It was different from what is expected. I think its a stupid reason to discount rules. " These rules suck because I don't like the cover art!" That makes no sense to me.

Pocket Empires is wonderful. ( although I think much of its artwork is horrid )
 
Ishmael: IG did a survey just before commissioning Chris Foss... they ignored the results which were strongly anti-Foss; some of us love his work, but feel it's really a bad choice for traveller.

It had little to do with the game, gave the wrong impressions, and his uglier works tended to be cover shots...
 
Because it didn't bother my players nor myself all that much.

Ty: MT's not quite "Elegant"... Nor is TNE, but they feel smoother in play than T4 did.

Just can't agree with you on that one.

Elegant is (Success Margin+Pen-AV)* Damage Rating done to stats... Used this once. It was elegant, fast, and used Striker weapons tables and CT Damages (in dice) as the DR. Worked REALLY well. Haven't done so again simply due to last several campaigns being playtests.

I agree that this could be an elegant mechanic.

But I've generally disliked mechanics that allow you to increase gun penetration (or damage) by having more weapon skill. A projectile's ability to penetrate armor will be highly dependent on factors that the shooter -- no matter how highly skilled -- cannot control. (Or, that in the heat of combat, most shooters won't try to control, because of the time required).

And as a practical matter, I have little confidence that most designers can sensibly limit the excesses. (This is a problem with CT, by the way. A sufficiently skilled person can fairly easily shoot through battle dress with a pistol. Not likely with the Book 1-3 chargen, but certainly possible with the skills bloat of Book 4+).

In your Striker example, a person with Combat Rifle-3 (not terribly difficult to get in Book 4 chargen) and DEX-8 (again, not too hard) would get a penetration bonus of +5 with an assault rifle. Added to the weapon's penetration of 3, it would be almost impossible not to kill an unarmored target (>92% chance) with a single hit. But if you re-scale the damage chart so that it can render a more reasonable chance of killing the target in this case, it will become nearly impossible for an untrained shooter to kill anyone. (And the autofire bonus presents a problem. There's no reasonable basis to include it as part of the damage/penetration mechanic, but if you exclude it, players have to remember 2 different modifier regimes, that are more complex than the original system.)

If you apply the result as damage points, then the average damage would be very high (and there's still the Striker problem of high penetration weapons being unreasonably lethal against unarmored targets).

If you use the suggestion in Striker that light wounds = 3D damage, serious wounds = 6D damage and Dead=Dead, then you still have the problems of awesomely high weapon lethality. I don't think that this is a reasonable approach even if you want a gritty campaign (available data on weapon damage does not support the Hollywood portrayal of mooks being killed instantly when hit). It also adds a third roll to the combat process, which IMHO reduces elegance. I don't necessarily mind three rolls, but I'd implement them in a far cleaner way than Striker does.

So it will take a fair amount of effort to make such an approach behave properly, if it's possible at all.

Of course, I acknowledge the possibility of aiming for weak spots in the armor, or aiming for the head, etc. But I'd prefer for these things to be handled by discrete "aimed shots" rules. And I have no problem with rules that enable snipers to carefully aim at vulnerable points. Such mechanics force the player to make a business decision about such things, rather than automatically giving him the benefit at no real game cost. This also tends not to break many systems as easily as your suggestion.

All these factors argue, in my opinion, for a system that does not so closely link weapon skill and damage/penetration. I'm just not convinced that skill is that much more important in determining damage than the physical factors of the projectile and armor and other factors that the shooter cannot easily affect.

A system that I'm toying with right now shows how I'd break up a complex task into 2-3 fast and simple steps (this is a very rough summary from memory) that plays faster than many systems with fewer rolls but more complex mechanics:

1. Roll to hit -- 1d10, 7+ to hit +skill (maximum of +3) + other mods. "1" always misses. Autofire weapons get extra dice depending on ROF (a 5 shot burst gets 2 rolls, for instance).

2. If you hit, roll to penetrate -- 1d10+penetration; must equal or exceed armor rating. For comparison, an assault rifle has a penetration of +2; a revolver has a penetration of 0; cloth armor has an armor rating of 8. On a natural 10, halve the armor rating (round down). This step can be skipped if the target is unarmored or if the target's armor is seriously overmatched by the weapon's penetration.

3. If you penetrate, roll for wound -- 1d10+damage-target mass. 1-2 is scratch wound. 3-5 is light wound. 6-8 is serious wound. 9+ is mortally wounded (the higher the number, the higher the chance that this turns into "instantly dead". Most small arms have a damage of 0. Shotguns and high calibre weapons have a damage of 2-3. Mass for a man-sized target is 0; +1 per weight band in the animal encounters. (If you prefer hit points, you can translate the total into damage points; in that case, ignore the mass modifier).

Note that each step uses the same kind of dice (and only 1 per shot). This means that the player can pick out and re-roll the successful dice for each additional step. Also, autofire just gets more dice -- and you can resolve 5 shots almost as quickly as 1 shot by rolling all of them together. So while there are up to 3 discrete steps, each step is fast, uses the same dice and similar mechanics. It plays quickly in playtests.
 
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And the prize for the worst idea of the year goes to...

There's nothing inherently wrong with a combined "to hit" and "penetration" roll. The problem arises when the designer fails to consider the the statistical aspects of what he's simulating and the limits of his resolution system.

For instance, I think that the more discrete things that a single roll system models, the greater the chance of an automatic failure.

A simple example: Assume that no matter how favorable conditions are, there's a 10% chance of failure at (a) hitting the target; and (b) penetrating the target's armor with enough force to do damage. This means that a single roll system must have at least a 19% chance of automatic failure. Also, if we assume that skill determines the hit chance and bullet performance determines penetration, then skill will only have about half the effect on the single roll that it would have on a comparable 2 roll system.

So if we're using a 2d6/8+ system, a 4- would have to be an automatic failure. Skill bonuses and penetration bonuses should be limited to a maximum of +2 each (otherwise very high penetration would make an unskilled shooter far more like to hit and penetrate than is reasonable; the same is true of a highly skilled shooter with a low penetration weapon).

This highlights another problem with such systems -- the overall chance to succeed can be unreasonably influenced by high values in one characteristic. In other words, a very high penetration weapon may have a 100% chance of penetrating armor, but if the shooter has a low skill, the net chance to hit and penetrate might be (say) 25%. A typical "roll dice and add modifiers" system might produce a far higher chance of success due to the distortion of the high penetration roll.

IMHO, such a system virtually demands a d20 mechanic unless you're willing to be extremely coarse with skill bonuses and weapon penetration.

So while such a system might work in theory (and have the virtue of being fast playing), it takes a lot of skill and effort to make it work well in reality. And since this approach is far harder to do with smaller dice ranges, and requires far more compromises than most RPG combat system designers and players are willing to make, the outlook is grim IMHO.

I prefer a combat system that discretely models hitting and penetration/damage with simple, fast moving mechanics.
 
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I really liked the damage absorption rule ever since T4 came out, until recently. I even lobbied for Marc to include it in T5's personal combat section. But now, for some reason, I'm sort of averse to it, and it's not because of giving away armor levels.

I used it in my recent campaign and it worked great (I did have to ditch T4's armor and weapon values, though, and re-value the CT weapons and armor). However, the system does make armored characters far less likely to take serious injuries in a single shot. And if the armor reduces weapon damage to 1D, it virtually assures that most characters won't suffer serious wounds with a single shot. Now this worked well in that campaign just because the scenario was a replay of Roark's Drift and the PCs getting slowly bled white by wave after wave of natives was dramatically very effective.

I think the system also forces the Referee to more carefully consider the armor and weapons of the various sides, since weapons can be rendered virtually ineffective. (Though I like the fact that flexible armor reduces a die damage to a single point, which means that most weapons will have some effect).

IMHO, it's an elegant system for several reasons:

1. Penetration is handled simply, without a separate die roll.

2. The maximum damage limit (3D for most small arms and 4D for shotguns) neatly avoids the main problem with systems that equate damage and penetration -- high penetration weapons are unreasonably lethal against unarmored targets.

3. It can be easily plugged into any version of Traveller except TNE, and is largely compatible with animal encounters.

Disadvantages:

1. The "slow erosion" problem above.

2. Having to tell the shooter the target's armor (though there are workarounds -- have them roll 3 dice always [4D] for shotguns and the referee picks the best, then worst die, then next best, etc.).
 
A system that I'm toying with right now shows how I'd break up a complex task into 2-3 fast and simple steps (this is a very rough summary from memory) that plays faster than many systems with fewer rolls but more complex mechanics:

...

Note that each step uses the same kind of dice (and only 1 per shot). This means that the player can pick out and re-roll the successful dice for each additional step. Also, autofire just gets more dice -- and you can resolve 5 shots almost as quickly as 1 shot by rolling all of them together. So while there are up to 3 discrete steps, each step is fast, uses the same dice and similar mechanics. It plays quickly in playtests.

I'd add that breaking up the process into discrete steps also makes it far easier to preserve the statistical relationships between steps. For instance, if hitting, armor penetration and damage are the most important factors in determining the effect of a gunshot, the interelationships between these factors can be impossible to model with a single die roll. This is because a failure at any step will cause the entire attempt to fail. To determine overall chance of success, you have to multiply the chances of success at each step.

So, assume that firing an assault rifle you have a 50% chance of hitting the target, 50% chance of penetration if you hit and a 50% chance of killing the target if you penetrate armor. You have a 50% x 50% x 50% = 12.5% overall chance of killing the target.

If you halve your "to hit" chance, you will halve the overall chance of success: 25% x 50% x 50% = 6.25%.

This can be impossible to model effectively with a simple single die roll system -- and the difficulty dramatically increases as you increase the number of critical factors modeled by the single die roll. Now you can model a specific interaction, but what might work when the "to hit" chance is halved might fail when the "to hit" chance is doubled.
 
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Ishmael: IG did a survey just before commissioning Chris Foss... they ignored the results which were strongly anti-Foss; some of us love his work, but feel it's really a bad choice for traveller.

It had little to do with the game, gave the wrong impressions, and his uglier works tended to be cover shots...

Perhaps they chose to use Foss' work in order to differentiate the First Imperium from the Third...because it is NOT what people expect for 'ordinary' Traveller.

-----------------------------
on combat systems...

I guess it depends on how much abstraction one is ready to put up with for the sake of speed and ease.
I feel my idea works and the statistics would appear to match AHL, which is good enough for me. If I want more detail, I'll continue to fool around with my combat-system-work-in-progress as mentioned in the MT forums. I don't really understand a lot of the statistical analysis stuff, but I figure that if I keep it kinda close to AHL/striker/MT for damage, I should be okay.
All I know is that ,for me, rolling less dice is better and my system only needs 3. Successful 'called shots/sniping' ( increase difficulty in MT ) allows one to set the lone 1d6 to whatever you like depending on where on the body you want to hit. Naturally, different body areas will probably have different AV's...Armor doesn't cover people up like a 100% coverage zip-lock baggy IMTU. Just because you have nifty hi-tech flak-jacket doesn't mean your arms are protected.

I don't see skill as affecting pen, but rather skill+pen-AV affecting damage. Pen-AV determines if the shot penetrates armor and I have no problems with higher skilled shooters causing more damage. A solid hit with a low pen attack against a high AV target is still a hit, just no damage/partial damage. A hit that 'shouldn't' penetrate ( AV>pen) might still cause damage through bruising for example, even if the bullet doesn't penetrate into the body. Being hit by a wrecking ball will still hurt even if it doesn't get past the armor, eh?

keep in mind that success+pen+1d6-AV is for the AHL damage table and not damage dice directly to stats.
Damage 'dice' is approximately 1/2 this number for damage to stats

guess I'll be quiet now...
 
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MGT Debacle? Debacle?

The title refers to nasty T/E mechanic (and other MGT screw ups) that were evident in the playtest. Since this thread was started, Mongoose has minimized the use of the T/E mechanic in the game.

But, there are still other screw ups, like all the deckplans in the MGT book being outrageously wrong (the author thought one 1.5 m deckplan square equaled a dton, when the correct answer is that two 1.5 m squares will give you a dton provided the ceiling is at a standard 3 m height).
 
All the deckplans are well presented, but do not look right based upon my own experience making deckplans. (I picked up my copy yesterday.)
 
I haven't checked. I'm saying, at a casual glance, they all look to have the same issues.

Pages 130-131: the serpent police cutter (a 100Td cutter!) has a "20 Ton Launch" which only takes 20 squares.

The 20 ton cargo bay is 22 squares.The bridge and airlocks, plus halls, amount to 17 squares. The two staterooms total 8 squares.

Whomever did these did NOT design them correctly. They are NOT within 10%, even AT 2m squares.

There is no excuse for this level of incompetence.

Since all of them appear to be scaled the same way, the deckplans are worse than useless: they are misleading and badly broken, far worse than most of the supplement 7 ones.
 
MGT is basically CT+ which is good as I am a die hard CT fan and now find myself really enjoying MGT. The number of skills earned in CG seems fair and with a few games under my belt I have yet to run into any issues or snags. The game appears to be well balanced.

T5 is a major turn off for me based on one thing. multiple d6 roll under TN. I did not like the mechanic in T4 and I am not going to like it in T5.
 
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