Advances in traveller?

[Trent]

Well, AIUI, GT was very, very faithful to CT in most ways, and it pretty strictly controlled a lot of advanced tech. No independent AI, for example. Cybernetics were strictly and heavily limited, genetic engineering was pretty heavily restricted and nanotech was an "industrial only" process.

So an android type PC, an AI type would be disallowed in the GT universe so I assumed it was also not canon in CT.

The zhoads used warbots, but they were not fully sentient.

 

[robject]

What? No more room sized computers?

I just won't be Traveller then.

Hmmmph!

o:

:rofl:

About time ship computers caught up with robot brains...

:rofl:

 

[GypsyComet]

AI: Traveller sits just shy of this as it is. If T5 is supposed to be all-era inclusive, it has to have full AI due to the advent of Virus and the effect that has on silicon sentience in the New Era.

Androids: In Traveller terms, a humaniform robot. Been around since JTAS #1.

Cybernetics: The Third Imperium marginalizes this technology, but it exists, and has had at least one practical application since JTAS #14 or so, with the introduction of the computer interface implant. There was an NPC with obvious cybernetics in The Traveller Adventure (also CT), and there was an extensive article on medical replacement cyber in Traveller's Digest #9 (IIRC). The Imperium looks down on obvious cyberware and has for centuries, suggesting that the technology has been around for a long time.

Large ships computers: This is an old, old argument amongst Traveller technophiles. I don't have a problem with large computers for a variety of reasons, and the idea that something that needs to be error proof (for Jump calcs) in space would shrink out of sight would just seem wrong at this point.

Biotech: Traveller has also assumed the ability to regrow limbs and organs since very early, with full-body accelerated cloning (followed by tailored cloning and memory duplication) firmly on the med-tech TL chart in CT. Adventure 6 had a memory overlay machine good enough to fool the Zhodani, and the Solomani have a long history of genetic engineering up to and including uplift.

Nanotech: Go read the sidebar in the GURPS Traveller rulebook, written under the supervision of Marc and Loren. Nanotech is either already present behind the scenes as a tool of the higher TLs, can't be made to work "as advertised" in SF, or shares social limits similar to cybernetics and psionics. Pick one, but know that "grey goo" is, if possible, a setting breaker. As such, the chances that it isn't possible are fairly good.

 

[BlackBat242]

I just picked up a "Kelly's Heroes/Dirty Dozen" two-sided DVD!

Actually, I bought it last week, but still.

I always liked the trading of the tank at the end.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Then there were also the Zho "war-bots", which our group never encountered... as such.

I actually ran an adventure where a temple from a long lost high-tech civilization was guarded by ED-209 type robots (the kind from Robocop). The group didn't seem to take a shine to it for whatever reason. One of our guys didn't think shooting robots was any fun. For him it was like fighting a toaster (albeit one with a couple of 20mm canons mounted on its "arms" ).

Otherwise, yeah, what others have said; they're always been there. They just haven't been utilized. I've had some implied AI and android like stuff in my adventures, but they weren't key props or actors.

 

[robject]

In fact, a few loose ends (in some cases, holy wars) are being tied up with an update to computers.

This means robots and computers use the same scales in Traveller now. Implications: You don't need an excuse for huge computers anymore, because standard starship computers are a rounding error; A robot brain is a type of computer, and putting a robot brain into a starship makes it a robot; And the Kinunir can be sentient and be looney tunes.

 

[far-trader]

In fact, a few loose ends (in some cases, holy wars) are being tied up with an update to computers.

This means robots and computers use the same scales in Traveller now. Implications: You don't need an excuse for huge computers anymore, because standard starship computers are a rounding error...

o:

A rounding error? That's the best they could come up with??

That's either a huge rounding error (in the case of a model/9 fib) or one heck of big brained robot. I can hear it now...

"Brain the size of a planet and ALL they have me running is a silly little maneuver program <heavy sigh> I should just maneuver myself into the sun and end it all."

 

[robject]

o:

A rounding error? That's the best they could come up with??

That's either a huge rounding error (in the case of a model/9 fib) or one heck of big brained robot. I can hear it now...

"Brain the size of a planet and ALL they have me running is a silly little maneuver program <heavy sigh> I should just maneuver myself into the sun and end it all."

"Rounding error" is one way I confuse people because I don't communicate well.

I mean that computers in Traveller are now quite small, to the point where most small starships won't have to allocate space for one.

 

[Trent]

One of the old arguments I heard about huge computers in traveller for ships was that the space labled 'computer" was mostly the sensors and avionics packages.

 

[Pagan priest]

One of the old arguments I heard about huge computers in traveller for ships was that the space labled 'computer" was mostly the sensors and avionics packages.

And access crawl spaces and terminals and cabinets for storing programs and data and etc, etc, etc.

 

[BlackBat242]

But that was also the justification for the 20dton minimum bridge size... even on a 100dton ship!!!

I mean, the average 3-seat bridge on even a 200dton far trader only takes up 5dtons or so for the open space, seats, and control panels in the floor-plan!

Are you telling me that "sensors and avionics packages" are responsible for the computers being oversized too?

 

[GypsyComet]

In CT, "Bridge" is shorthand for "anything that the ship needs that isn't one of the listed construction bits". So, life support, sensors, airlocks, and of course, the actual flight deck. This is explicit in T20, while other editions break out some of those other functions to their own volumes, leaving the "bridge" a label to apply to just the flight deck.

Computers are an important adjunct to sensors. Sensors merely "sense". The computers behind them do the interpretation. Some of that is built into the sensor packages seen in some editions, but integration between different sensors is, by definition, not something that any one sensor should be doing.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi, one thought I've...

And access crawl spaces and terminals and cabinets for storing programs and data and etc, etc, etc.

Hi,

One thought I've been having more recently focuses on looking at a ship's "computer" not just as a single component, but more likely as a network (or two) with servers, some form of Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS), and maybe a dedicated cooling unit.

Several years ago, I had the chance to do a shipcheck of an ocean going naval auxiliary that was intended to be refitted, and one of the spaces we were checking out was slated to house a UPS for some system onboard. While the compartment in question was not huge, it may have been the equivalent of a couple dtons in Traveller terms.

Additionally, more recently at an office I used to work at, they converted their old library space into a new server room to house all the computers and back ups, etc for the office, as well as some servers that they used to do some web-hosting on. Overall this space was probably at least 10ft x 12ft in size.

After looking at these two examples I realized that even with relatively small desk top computers and rack mounted servers, the total footprint of an installation, especially if you add in UPS's and other support equipment, can in fact add up.

Here's a link to a deck plan for a ship I recently sketched up where I tried to dedicate some space, in way of the Bridge for use as a "server" type space. I think in this design I assumed that the space for this "server" room was part of the bridge allocation, since the rules the ship was drawn to didn't have a separate allocation for computer, but if it did, I could have easily made the room part of the computer space allocation, and used the space on the bridge for something else. (The "computer room" is labeled as C/R and is centered just forward of the aft bulkhead of the bridge, behind two equipment racks).

http://members.cox.net/psjn/M100/Pocket%20Trader.pdf

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Regards

PF

 

[far-trader]

In CT, "Bridge" is shorthand for "anything that the ship needs that isn't one of the listed construction bits".

I agree, except for the life support bit. That's clearly part of the stateroom tonnage. I'd add lifters, landing gear, attitude control thrusters and/or surfaces, and the ship's locker(s) into the "bridge" tonnage.

Computers are clearly not part of the sensors or commo in CT since they are split simply as short range civilian or long range military and not range or task dependent of the computer model installed.

I think a big part of the power requirements* for the larger computers (maybe the only part) is for the "business end" of programs such as ECM (which no self preserving warship should be without).

I think it has best been put as "Starship computers are NOT like simple personal computers. They ARE more like the "computer" of a modern naval warship." That MGT caved to this myth that Starship computers in Traveller are too big because they are based on 1970's technology is disappointing.

* a much much larger issue than the piddling matter of a few tons of space

 

[mike wightman]

When the ship's computer becomes self aware and starts murdering the crew do you want:

a) computer components spread out throughout the ship so it is impossible to completely isolate the problem

or

b) a cramped room you can crawl into and start pulling bits out of

?

I think there may be examples of computer being the governing skill when using sensors somewhere - Beltstrike perhaps or the Alien modules - going to check now.

The compure model is a DM to the finding systems task roll in the Zhodani alien module - implication is computers are part of the sensors set up.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

IMTU, the computer is part and parcel to the sensors, commo, l/s control, and essentially anything electronic that isn't covered in the Engineering section.

If anything, the computer acts as a router, filter, and announcer of information from, about or outside the ship. We know, for example, that civilian starships require a powerful radio, a laser uplink, a radar, a ladar, imaging software, holodynamic software for the control boards, astrogation programs, etc., etc. And that's just bridge demands. Add in all the other demands that a computer substitutes for. The 'Bridge' tonnage is all the actual electronics equipment that isn't actually the physical computer itself. Sure it's generalized as 'minimum 20 tons', but that's the easiest mechanic. As with any game, a certain amount of suspension of disbelief is required.

As to the physical plant of the computer, given that we have no idea how many computations-per-microsecond it takes to safely create, maintain, and exit a bubble of jumpspace, I've always written the size off as needed to do these tasks.

After all, much as many of us would like to, we're STILL not playing 'Gearheads and Grognards In... SPAAAACCCEEE!'. :rofl: Traveller is, always has and always should be about the characters and not about the equipment.

 

[atpollard]

After all, much as many of us would like to, we're STILL not playing 'Gearheads and Grognards In... SPAAAACCCEEE!'. :rofl: Traveller is, always has and always should be about the characters and not about the equipment.

A marine walks up to you, what would you notice first?

a) his rank and hash marks identify him as a "Gunnery Sergeant with 5 terms of service".

b) he is wearing Battle Dress and pointing a FGMP at you.

The 'Gearheads and Grognards' may have a small point.

 

[Gadrin]

I think along the lines that Traveller is where the characters who delve deeply into technology are the thinking force behind it and how it's used and it should be rare cases where the technology does all the work.

In general:

Ships don't jump on their own, however once the decision to jump is made it's heavily automated.

Most ships are fly-by-wire, meaning the sophont does the intial work/request and the computer/ship complies.

Most analysis is done by sophont regarding sensors. Sure the equipment does the lion's-share but the ultimate determination of what's there is by someone viewing the output.

Things like auto-pilots exist (or even robo-pilots) but by and large they aren't like Han Solo that can do all sorts of fancy things.

Everything that's computerized or heavily automated has an override feature -- something that might be used quite a bit; not necessarily because of FUBAR situations but that it's convention, esp in Vilani space

Most technology doesn't make the decision to invoke itself or something unless a sophont has programmed it that way. Especially items like evacuating oxygen from sealed chambers and so on.

Point defense weapons are probably heavily automated, but still rely on a
crewman to "okay" the action or at least work off an oversight principle -- meaning a button push can abort a defensive action.

Most advanced missiles should have self-destructs.

Does that make sense ? o:

 

[robject]

In CT, "Bridge" is shorthand for "anything that the ship needs that isn't one of the listed construction bits".

As in T20 (and Mongoose Traveller), Traveller 5's bridge is where you usually have sensors and the computer (and, presumably, avionics). This is to some degree a departure from CT. In addition, MGT and T5 both have small bridges available for the smallest starships.


Traveller breaks the universe up into characters, who are the actors, and things like equipment, which is always acted upon. The technological extension of that is that, if you can install a robot brain in a ship, then that ship becomes a character -- player- or non- -- and that means a personality.

Imagine the issues if you could put one of those in a guided missile.

But, I think the last thing my players would want is an NPC ship...

 

[pendragonman]

...

Imagine the issues if you could put one of those in a guided missile.

As long as it has a suicidal personality...