Abstract combat thoughts

[mike wightman]

Just something to play around with.

Battleships and tanks have long had to balance three factors - offensive punch, defence(armour+screens+point defence), and mobility(agility).

Let's start with a TL9 and factors of 3-3-3. You can lower one factor to increase one of the other two.

For each TL break above TL9 add 1 to the initial factor.

Attack
+1 TL11
+2 TL13
+3 TL15

Defence
+1 TL10
+2 TL12
+3 TL14

Mobility
+1 TL13
+2 TL15

These are based off the High Guard tables.

 

[PBI]

A friend and I played with an abstract system for representing ships a while ago. We used a similar system in that we started with a base of TL7 and had differing modifiers in various areas based on increasing TL. We broke our factors down into attack (anti-ship), defence, bombardment, hull configuration, jump range, and cargo capacity, with some things (such as config) affecting other aspects (such as defence). We managed to come up with a working system, though it was incredibly awkward; what we wanted to do was to get as close to HG and TCS as we could but without the laborious design and record-keeping process. I'm still not sure whether a simple or complex abstract system is better, but I'd dearly love to see a working model created

 

[The Oz]

Interesting idea, Sigg. How would you account for smaller ships, like cruisers? Just have them start off with less and use the same TL-based increases?

 

[mike wightman]

Hadn't really thought about it much, but that's a good idea Oz

A cruiser could start at 2-2-2, and another class at 1-1-1. And then use the same TL based increases and points swapping mentioned earlier.

 

[jappel]

Hmm, how's this for dealing with jump factors:

Base Jump capability (for free)
TL 9-10: J1
TL 11-12: J2
TL 13-14: J3
TL 15: J4

Increases above the base capability (to the current TL limit) cost two points from the total attack, defense and agility per increase in jump number, from either a single factor or split between multiple factors as you choose.

Just OTTOMH - don't have my HG stuff at work, but I think I'm close.

- John

 

[The Oz]

I think cruisers would be 1-1-1. That gives them 3 overall points, verses a battleship's 9, which implies that battleships are at least 3 times the size of cruisers, which they are.

Or you could say that a ship gets one overall point per 20ktons. This would give the classic 200kton BB 10 points (3-4-3) and a 60kton cruiser would end up as a 1-1-1. TL modifiers would still apply, so a 5,000 dton TL 15 escort (a P.F. Sloan), starting as a 0-0-0, would become a 3-3-2 just from TL modifiers. While this might seem a bit extreme (it would make a P.F. Sloan equal to a 140kton TL 10 BB) given the computer differences a TL10 BB couldn't hit a P.F. Sloan while the Sloan could (slowly) whittle away the BB.

John:

Your idea could be worked the other way, too. Ships might give up jump capability to gain combat power.

I think that the Attack, Defense, and Mobility ratings should be capped at a maximum equal to the ship's TL.

 

[mike wightman]

How about starting the cruiser off at 1-1-3 - the movement/agility rating for cruisers should be pretty high.

I like John's idea too, and your modification of it Oz.

 

[jappel]

Oh, yes, trading in jump factors for combat capability is implied. Gotta support those in-system monitors.

What are you thinking of in terms of combat resolution, Sigg? Something like the Fifth Frontier War system, only using individual ships instead of squadrons?

< cue evil grin > And what about fighters, which can actually have an impact on combat at TL 12 and down?

-John

 

[mike wightman]

Counters for individual capital ships, or squadrons of support vessels or fighters.

For combat rules... probably an adaptation of the Imperium/Dark Nebula/FFW/IE type systems.

Although I have a copy of the Mayfair games boardgame The Company War (based on the C.J.Cherryh novels) which has a nice little tactical combat game.

 

[Berg]

Of course you know what to use to make the counters...

SpaceShip Counters Rendering Machine

 

[The Oz]

I've never seen The Company War; how does it handle tactical combat?

I would group fighters into Wings of 100 fighters. Assuming 50dton heavy fighters that would be 5000 dtons of fighter per Wing, which I think is the smallest unit I'd consider tactically viable. Such a Wing would have at least 10 batteries in HG.

How about rating Fighter Wings as 1-0-3, and saying that fighter never had jump capability so they can't give it up to gain extra points?

If we were to say that the factors were Beam, Missile, and Defense you could easily use the Imperium system, or FFW. Or even that WAS/VITP-type system I suggested elsewhere recently.

Berg posted: Of course you know what to use to make the counters...

SpaceShip Counters Rendering Machine

Of course

 

[RandyT0001]

Originally posted by The Oz:
TL modifiers would still apply, so a 5,000 dton TL 15 escort (a P.F. Sloan), starting as a 0-0-0, would become a 3-3-2 just from TL modifiers. While this might seem a bit extreme (it would make a P.F. Sloan equal to a 140kton TL 10 BB) given the computer differences a TL10 BB couldn't hit a P.F. Sloan while the Sloan could (slowly) whittle away the BB.

At TLA the maximum size allowed for a ship is 49,999 tons because of computer/ship size restrictions.

Looking over HG I think TLD is a big step up in ship capabilities. A TL D computer can support any size of ship. At TL D the power plant drops in size making armor more probable. At TL D nuclear dampers and meson screens are more likely to be used. There are more choices for effective spinal mounts at TL D and the 100 ton bay PA, Repulsor, and missile weapons are in the 7+ factor range. Therefore I think that TL D ships should be factors nx2 (or nx3) and not simply factors +n.

Your going to need lots of smaller ships at less than TL D to defeat ships built at TL D and above.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by The Oz:
I've never seen The Company War; how does it handle tactical combat?

This is from memory, so I'll have to dig it out to see if I get everything right.

Ships have an attack-defence-movement rating.

Combat is on a "circular" hex map, with ships allowed to move equal to their movement factor each turn, although it costs a movement point to turn.
Roll 2d to equal/exceed attack rating to cause target to be considered damaged. Target has to roll defence rating or less on 1 die to shrug off the damage.
A successful hit that penatrates defences causes the counter to be flipped to its damage side. Another successful hit kills it.

 

[Ptah]

Berg:

Of course you know what to use to make the counters...

SpaceShip Counters Rendering Machine

This link, and the other associated counter makers of BeRKA, are cool beyond words. And I've been making counters on CorelDraw all these years. Yours Berg?

 

[Berg]

I got a copy of CT: the games and would like to make the counters for alot of the games...

Mr. BeRKA should have a look...

I have a link to his site on my site, thats how useful the stuff is

 

[BeRKA]

I am happy if my stuff can be useful.

 

[RandyT0001]

RESURRECT THREAD!!!

Sigg any news/work on this?

Anybody???

 

[mike wightman]

I'd actually forgotten about this

Thanks for bringing it back from the dead

For a fun summer holiday project I think I'll try to work out some movement and maneuver rules (across a whole system - think Triplanetary) and some rules for sensors etc. to allow for hide and seek.

And then a closer ranged tactical system to resolve combat....

 

[far-trader]

I'd actually missed this the first time around, so yes thanks for digging it up Randy.

I had a quick look at it last night and wondered, is this to model Traveller space combat? For RPG use? Or is it more of a generic Grognard space combat project?

In either case could we work on it to cover a wider range of conflicts? Integrating scale from small infantry units (fire teams or squads and up), through vehicles and small craft, and up to small or large ships?

 

[mike wightman]

The concept I have in mind is moving ship counters (like the ones in FFW, IE, I and DN) around on a gameboard that represents a stellar system.

Each counter would be a capital ship or squadron of lesser ships.

I hadn't thought about troop units and vehicles...

until now