Where does it say that? The Sword Worlders are specifically mentioned as an example of planetary populations that are not a minor human race (just plain Solomani) [RgS:79], and there is no such thing as an Imperial subspecies [Humaniti].
Hans
Aaaaliens in the Spinward Marches!
- Thread starter ditzie
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Hans
Dear Mr. Whipsnade,
Just for you and Donm, I've aged my post ten years. I hope this helps.
P.S. Sword Worlders are not a minor human race. They'd have to be separated from the rest of humaniti by like 300,000 years.
E.D.Quibell
SOC-13
E.D.Quibell
SOC-13
They're in JTAS 17, if that helps.
http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/JTAS17
and
http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Jgd-ll-jagd
and, for piles of online info: http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/alphabet/j/jgd_i_j.htm
Several unofficial sources, most notably Clay Bush, place Jagd in Lishun; but the JTAS #17 article itself puts three criteria:
1. Contacted by the Vilani in -4200.
2. Colonies spread across three subsectors (some of which are in K'kree space, which rules out Lishun).
3. Homeworld (gas giant) named Jagd.
So, while that rules out the Marches, the question then is where is Jagd?
I have to admit, I've been looking for a Marches reference for the Jagd, and can't find one...
They're not there. I mean, every time I heard about them it was in the context of being somewhere else...
The reference to Lishun 2307 comes from GURPS Traveller Alien Races 4.
Starviking
SOC-13
This expanded Jdg-ll-Jadg article mentions the homeworld near the coreward edge of the Imperium, and "Jgd colonies or outposts in or near K'Kree space". This and the line " Other races get on with the Jgd even less well than does Humaniti" suggest they are widely spread out across space.
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Starviking
SOC-13
Aged ten years? You must send us an up-to-date pic of you and your battledress dear...
That link is basically the JTAS article with GURPS stats. Doesn't give us an exact location though. But I think we do have enough evidence to rule the Jgd out of having a homeworld in the Marches. So we're back to 8 natives and 1 human minor for the Marches.
As I said, the location is provided in GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 4, as being Lishun 2307. The online Traveller Atlas even lists this world as "Jagd".
The reference predates GURPS, being in the TNE BARD papers:
http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/cari/cari9004.html
http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/cari/cari9004.html
Which are very non-canon. I'd drop the reference completely, but Clay Bush uses it in a 1992 file, and so it has to come from somewhere. Perhaps a HIWG document?
Because the JTAS 17 article says colonies across three subsectors, and some are in/near K'kree Space, we're definitely safe in saying it's not near the Marches, which was what this topic was discussing.
I don't really understand why you'd want to drop the reference. After all, Jagd has to be somewhere. If it isn't canon (which, BTW, I consider it to be after appearing in a GT publication -- Jagd isn't going to be in one location in the GTU and in another in the OTU -- why not make it canon?
Hans
Don's not qualified to drop or add canon. He's just trying to establish that they aren't in the Marches.
That was sort of the point with this discussion. Aliens in the Marches. Where ever you want to stick them, we've clearly established that there aren't any Jagd colonies in the Marches.
And the original discussion was whether the Marches have hundreds of intelligent local races, or not. I named off a list of 4 locals, 4 undefined locals and one local human minor as what I (personally) saw as canon.
Then we got distracted on the Jagd thing. I don't want them gone, I just don't want their homeworld in the Marches.
I tend to agree that silence from canon in Traveller should be interpreted as a statement about canon.
We have infrequent or hazy references to things that aren't fully realized, and yet were obviously in the authors' minds, and are probably canon. This is where some holy wars come from. Drop tanks. Artificial intelligence and starship automation. The effectiveness of fighters. 100,000 ton cargoliners. We suspect there's an official "range" of correctness, some configuration that may work the way they were originally intended... or the way we want them to.
But then we have things which were never mentioned, or not strongly hinted at. Stutterwarp was never called part of the OTU. Canon is silent. Does that mean that stutterwarp is, in fact, present in the Official TU? (No.)
Do we have lightsabers? (No.)
Do we have the "Mos Eisley Cantina effect"?
No.
Are there significantly more than 7 or 8 "native" sophont homeworlds per sector?
Not in the Marches.
Not in the Imperium. (What is that reference about the Vilani running up against a lot of initial competition?)
How about "not anywhere"? I'm less pessimistic, but I know the Imperium isn't very highly polysophontic.
Here's how far I will stretch it: I could see 16 current sophont homeworlds in the Marches -- appx one per subsector -- if it's done well without disrupting what I know about the Marches from the adventures. But any more than that really tends to bother me, and I'd rather see fewer (i.e. 8 or 12). I don't mind mixing in pre-sophont species and extinct sophont homeworlds to that mix, as long as there aren't too many of them.
And I think that would count as a retcon.
We have infrequent or hazy references to things that aren't fully realized, and yet were obviously in the authors' minds, and are probably canon. This is where some holy wars come from. Drop tanks. Artificial intelligence and starship automation. The effectiveness of fighters. 100,000 ton cargoliners. We suspect there's an official "range" of correctness, some configuration that may work the way they were originally intended... or the way we want them to.
But then we have things which were never mentioned, or not strongly hinted at. Stutterwarp was never called part of the OTU. Canon is silent. Does that mean that stutterwarp is, in fact, present in the Official TU? (No.)
Do we have lightsabers? (No.)
Do we have the "Mos Eisley Cantina effect"?
No.
Are there significantly more than 7 or 8 "native" sophont homeworlds per sector?
Not in the Marches.
Not in the Imperium. (What is that reference about the Vilani running up against a lot of initial competition?)
How about "not anywhere"? I'm less pessimistic, but I know the Imperium isn't very highly polysophontic.
Here's how far I will stretch it: I could see 16 current sophont homeworlds in the Marches -- appx one per subsector -- if it's done well without disrupting what I know about the Marches from the adventures. But any more than that really tends to bother me, and I'd rather see fewer (i.e. 8 or 12). I don't mind mixing in pre-sophont species and extinct sophont homeworlds to that mix, as long as there aren't too many of them.
And I think that would count as a retcon.
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E.D.Quibell
SOC-13
Ok, well if we take into account Behind the Claw and GURPS Traveller canon (and why not?)
We have minors:
Mewey of Mewey (Spinward Marches 0830)
Obeyery of Stave (Spinward Marches 0710)
Otarri of Faldor (Spinward Marches 1131)
Saurian of Sauris (Spinward Marches 1320)
Tashaki of Retinae (Spinward Marches 0416)
Tethmari of Gyomar (Spinward Marches 0108)
Ursty of Yurst (Spinward Marches 2309)
Viji of Zeta 2 (Spinward Marches 0919)
And humans:
Nexxies of Nexine (Spinward Marches 3030)
We have minors:
Mewey of Mewey (Spinward Marches 0830)
Obeyery of Stave (Spinward Marches 0710)
Otarri of Faldor (Spinward Marches 1131)
Saurian of Sauris (Spinward Marches 1320)
Tashaki of Retinae (Spinward Marches 0416)
Tethmari of Gyomar (Spinward Marches 0108)
Ursty of Yurst (Spinward Marches 2309)
Viji of Zeta 2 (Spinward Marches 0919)
And humans:
Nexxies of Nexine (Spinward Marches 3030)
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