Correct.
Zhodani Warbots
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Not really. There is "education" and then there is EDU.
The SOC limit on EDU is for initial score only. The limiting sentence says "initially". The paragraph at the end of Basic character generation does not impose the limit at the end of character generation, so a SOC 4 Prole can keep that EDU of 7 he earned the hard way.
The Guard and Army are the only two Basic careers that DON'T have enlistment DMs for EDU. The lowest EDU Proles will be relegated to line Grunt positions, while the mid- and high-EDU Proles will tend to end up in technical positions. The advanced rules exclude Proles from the Guard, but not from the Army.
+1 EDU is a really common roll on the skill tables.
The social education model holds through age 18, then is modified by adulthood. There is nothing except a low starting point that keeps a low SOC Prole out of the technical specialties. He's got farther to climb, but the climb CAN be made.
I think you're quibbling at this point.
And now I know you're quibbling.
I'm not about to go into a four-post debate about whether the army drafts a plumber when I was - obviously I thought, but perhaps not - using plumber and baker to refer to ordinary non psi-Zho's.
And, lest there be confusion on the subject, Joe Zho was not a real name either.
Once more, for the record: I am not calling the nobles cowards. I am not calling them effetes who don't like to get dirty or bored. I am saying they take roles commensurate with their skills. Why that should be difficult to communicate, I don't know. Clearly I have failed utterly as a communicator.
Here's the deal: show me where it says the Zho regular army is all psi, or don't and feel free to run it that way in your TU, but I don't feel obligated to consider the regulars all psi unless something in canon tells me to. In fact, JTAS 11, if it's accepted as a source regarding the Zho Guard, seems to think otherwise: "Unlike other Zhodani units, which have only a small detachment of psionic specialists attached to each battalion headquarters, ..."
I will make the assumption that they are referring in that instance to Zho regular units, since I think we all agree the CG is an all upper-crust unit and therefore likely has a whole lotta psi's.
No offense to those who like the idea of the upper crust shouldering all of the risk, it's actually an interesting notion, but I don't see it from what I see of canon. And a bot needing someone to tell it what to do with their mysterious mind powers is not evidence that every joe in the entire regular army platoon is psi. Mama's little non-psi boy wants to grow up to heroically defend the borders from the wicked Impies, I say more power to him.
From AM4:
"TACTICS: Warbots can be preprogrammed to conduct certain maneuvers upon voice command from a qualified officer.
"COMMAND AND CONTROL: Warbots are preprogammed to remain in basic formations and to engage enemy troops or equipment when they are encountered. They are also capable of basic speech recognition (both sound and on communicator channels) and of executing simple actions.
"Most warbots have about a one hundred word vocabulary (in Zhodani) and have a similarly limited repetoire of available actions. ,
"Beeper Units: The small personal identification units carried by Zhodani troops serve to identify friendly forces from enemy forces. They also allow a warbot to identify a speaker as qualified to make voice commands if direct speech is used."
Seems there are other ways to command a bot than to think at it. Probably much better to think at it, but they seem to have included a Plan B. Good for them.
I'm looking through AM4 and not seeing where there's an absolute requirement for Guards to be able to teleport. The JTAS 11 article about "commando groupments" clearly states they are mostly teleporters (384 teleports, 36 telepath/clairvoyants to tell them where to go). However, the article discusses commando groupments being part of "each lift infantry regiment and mechanized infantry regiment of those respective [i.e. Consular Guards] divisions, and of the grav tank regiment of the lift mechanized division." The illustration shows the commando groupment with a battalion symbol above its icon. That's the II thing, right? Battalion? Ergo the Consular Guard regiment includes a battalion of teleporters; the rest of the regiment have other talents, and maybe the odd teleporter among them, but the commando groupment is the unit that specializes in teleport as a combat tactic.
... And that makes the Consular Guard probably the only part of the entire Zhodani armies that don't use warbots, as (AFAIK) no way to teleport them has yet achieved. ...Means the commando battalion is less likely to use them, at least among the teleports. Could still be useful to keep a reserve of the bots in the HQ company, to defend the clairvoyants, to serve as a decoying force to take the enemy's attention while the 'porters break in behind, to press the enemy hard if the 'porter's mission prompts an Imperial retreat, and so forth.
Must I point out the Mamluk? High status slaves, no doubt, but slaves nonetheless. Of course, you give a sword to a slave, you take certain chances - heh. :devil:
And, I do believe the Serbs had weapons. Or maybe they just depended on the vampires and werewolves to defend them.
Holy strawman, batman. I said "a considerable portion" which in normal language uses does not and indeed cannot mean "all".
And sorry, when you use word like "sad sacks", "regular Joe Zhoe", "plumbers and bakers", you do create a certain impression even if it's not to be taken literally - which I did not. If you mean proles, say proles.
The Consular Guard has (at least in its frontline units) no non-psis, seeing how it is all noble/intendant.
Of course there are. As far as I can see, nobody has ever argued the point you are now attacking, namely that all of the Zhodani military is psionic.
But what I will argue, based on canon, common sense, and indeed my own personal view of how things would work, is the following: Nobles and intendants, including psionic specialists, are found at every level of the Zhodani military, from the general staff to the foxhole. And I will further argue that nobles and intendants, with their strong commitment to the state, are at least proportionally represented in the military, which means that at leat 20% of the overall Zhodani force is psionic to some degree.
Proles can of course join the Zhodani military. I even happen to follow the rules and descriptions in AM4, which means that proles can even become officers (in rare cases) and rise through the ranks by showing exceptional abilities.
I'm afraid I cannot find the quote, but ITTR having read somewhere tan Teleport was the main talent for the Consular Guard, and a near prerequisite for them. I guess the clairvoyents/telepaths are also teleports, as are those in the Zhodani CG comanoes that appear in The alien realms.
You're right some warbots are likely to be among them, if only to help holding the bases.
Of course there were (and are) armies where all strata of the society is equally represented, I never intended to deny this, I just pointed you theat there also have been in history some of them where only the upper strata of the society was allowed, at least as combat troops.
And, I do believe the Serbs had weapons. Or maybe they just depended on the vampires and werewolves to defend them.
Wrong translation on my part. I meant serfs, not serbs
.And BTW, Transilvania is Romania, not Serbia.
As a related issue, I guess also most police in Zhodane would be robots (warbots little cousins).
As I understand the Zhodani society, their police would be quite different of what we understand as such. In a nearly crime-free society as theirs, the main mission of the police would not be to keep order and prosecute crimes, as order is kept by education/social mesures (aided by psionic control and scanning), and any such an act as intentionally trying to damage someone is clear sign of madness, and so a matter for the Tavrchedl' to deal with.
That leaves the main police missions to traffic control, help lost/needed people, etc. (most of them seen as secondary missions by most human societies), and that can easily be left to robots with human (noble/intendent) supervision (quite diferent vision of a robot police than robocop :devil
.
As I understand the Zhodani society, their police would be quite different of what we understand as such. In a nearly crime-free society as theirs, the main mission of the police would not be to keep order and prosecute crimes, as order is kept by education/social mesures (aided by psionic control and scanning), and any such an act as intentionally trying to damage someone is clear sign of madness, and so a matter for the Tavrchedl' to deal with.
That leaves the main police missions to traffic control, help lost/needed people, etc. (most of them seen as secondary missions by most human societies), and that can easily be left to robots with human (noble/intendent) supervision (quite diferent vision of a robot police than robocop :devil
.Just to say that I have always taken the canon interpretation of the Zhodani military from page 40 of CT/Striker Book 2.
You'll note it stipulates that, because of the caste system, you calculate the proportion of elites, vets, regulars and recruits in a given unit separately for the officer corps and for the rest of the unit. The clear implication being that officers are not selected on the basis of professional ability but instead because they are nobles.
Then it suggests that on average a Zhodani force will have 5% extra officers over command billets for psi duties, all with a natural psi strength of 9 or greater (routinely further enhanced with psi drug). Then it notes that all other Zhodani officers have limited psi ability, most often telepathy.
You'll note it stipulates that, because of the caste system, you calculate the proportion of elites, vets, regulars and recruits in a given unit separately for the officer corps and for the rest of the unit. The clear implication being that officers are not selected on the basis of professional ability but instead because they are nobles.
Then it suggests that on average a Zhodani force will have 5% extra officers over command billets for psi duties, all with a natural psi strength of 9 or greater (routinely further enhanced with psi drug). Then it notes that all other Zhodani officers have limited psi ability, most often telepathy.
Which means the traffic light can tell you when to stop, issue the citation when you don't then testify against you. :rofl:
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Or because they have specific Talents.
Sadly enough up until 1807 the West Indies Regiments were composed of armed slaves!
Regards
David
I was talking about Medieval Europe.
I never claimed there have not been armies formed by slaves (though none that I can recall in Western world), though I guess those slaves have distinct status than other ones. I just pointed that an army formed moslty (if not exclusivelly) by the upper strata of the society is nothing useen in history.
I don't think this was very common. Even when the nobility dominated warfare (as for example armored knights did (at least until they came up against well-trained pikemen)) they tended to drag along a bunch of commoner foot soldiers. Sometimes, as in the case of longbowmen, very effective commoner foot soldiers.
But no slave troops that I know of in Europe. Unless serfs count?
Hans
As I understand it slavery in Europe was limited to debt and prisoners of war, so serf would not count as they had some rights, though not many if they looked at a Noble the wrong way.
Regards
David
Sorry, assumed you were discussing Nobles, who were leading armies/navies well into the 20th century (in this country).
Regards
David
I am no expert in things martial, but to my knowledge it is also true that a culture which draws its army mostly from the upper strata tends to adopt rules of war that promote the needs of the upper strata. The Euros had that whole ransom thing - and boy were they discomfitted when the Mongols showed up and changed the rules. The Maya, Aztec, etc. captured and sacrificed their warrior opponents, which both meant high quality sacrifices and left a leadership vacuum for the winners to move into.
Bringing it back to the Zhos, we have an interesting conflict. They're not a terribly violent people. There may be some vying among the nobles, but I don't recall reading anything about civil wars or efforts to deal with rebellious worlds after the establishment of the Consulate. They certainly understood that violence was out there - they dealt with the Vargr and others, after all. However, the Zhodani seem to be a generally peaceful culture internally, promoted by their psionics. In the Imperium, however, the Zho are confronted with a large, aggressive, almost ruthless culture that practices total war - the Imperium has been known to devastate rebellious worlds.
It raises some interesting questions. There doesn't seem to be a tremendous need for cruisers and dreadnoughts in the Zho interior. It may well be that a franchise of arms limited to the nobility might be quite adequate to hold the threats on the Consulate's other borders. It is not sufficient on the border with the Imperium. But, does that mean the Zho military on the border with the Imperium should be different from the Zho military elsewhere in the Consulate?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
To use Star Trek as an analogy:
I imagine the main Zhodani fleet to be almost Star Fleet in mission - armed exploration.
On the border with the Imperium you have Star Fleet vs the Cardassians, so you ships are designed along much more military mission profiles.
I imagine the main Zhodani fleet to be almost Star Fleet in mission - armed exploration.
On the border with the Imperium you have Star Fleet vs the Cardassians, so you ships are designed along much more military mission profiles.
Serfs were "persons unfree".
Not quite slaves, and not chattels, but obligated as tightly as a slave to service - just less of it.
Even so, serfs were rarely drafted into the noble's armies, this being duty (and privilege) of freemen and yeomen, who usually had also to bring their own weapons with them (usually then those were what we'd call "civilian" or "double use" as tools or hunting weapons too, as bows or crosbows, used to hunt, or knifes or axes, used as tools). Swords and so were rarely used by them, being only for profesionals.
That varies by historical location - England had some serfs in military service - as rabble - at various points, with any pointy implement to hand.
Russia drafted peasants into the army, whether serf or freeman, or even kulak, for 10 years full time, from about 1500 on; it was abolished in 1861. But note that most of those drafted, if they survived, were freemen from the time of Peter the Great.
And clubby. And slashy. It's really quite remarkable how easy it is to weaponize farm implements.
