Zhodani Warbots

[aramis]

I don't tnik it's as bad as that. Not very many Zhodani have psionic abilities and those who do can only use them a handful of times per day. To manipulate equipment of enemy soldiers you need a combination clairvoyant and telekinetic and, as I said, he can only peform his tricks so many times per day.


Hans

That varies widely by ruleset.
Under CT, they can always do it a couple times a day.
Under MT, they can attempt a few times a day.
Under TNE, no, there is no limit to how often they can do it, other than the time for the attempt.
Under T4, they can do it a number of times per day
Under T4 w/PI, they can attempt it a number of times per day
Under MGT they can attempt it a number of times per day
Under GT, the number of times is a factor of failure rate (only failures cause Fatigue)

 

[rancke]

That varies widely by ruleset.

Regrettably, yes. An since this is the IMTU forum we can't ignore CT, MT, TNE, T4, and GT as superceded by MGT.

I was fooled by epicenter's remark "If you really play out psionics to the degree that the Zhodani should be using them..." into assuming that he was talking about our common frame of reference. After all, on what else is he basing his opinion about how Zhodani should be played? As you say, it depends on what ruleset you are using.

But then again, since this is the IMTU forum, I can base my opinion on my TU, can't I? And if you're playing the Zhodani the way I think they ought to be played, I don't think it's as bad as he describes.

Under CT, they can always do it a couple times a day.
Under MT, they can attempt a few times a day.
Under TNE, no, there is no limit to how often they can do it, other than the time for the attempt.
Under T4, they can do it a number of times per day
Under T4 w/PI, they can attempt it a number of times per day
Under MGT they can attempt it a number of times per day
Under GT, the number of times is a factor of failure rate (only failures cause Fatigue)

Indeed, the psionic rules is one of the things I think GT got egregiously wrong, adapting the setting to fit the GURPS rules instead of (as I think they ought to have done) adapting the rules to fit the setting.

I hadn't realized that TNE had gotten it even more wrong than GT, but I'm not surprised to hear it.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Irrespective of rules sets, there are statistical limits. The bulk of Zho society is not noble or intendant, and there's no reason to expect the bulk of the army to be. Officers will certainly be psionic, but only the junior officers will be within range to play such tricks, and they'll likely be busy leading their men and using what psi they have to enhance morale and communicate orders. There'll certainly be psi specialty units available to a company or battalion, but they'll be specialty units - they're more likely to be targeted on opposing company and higher headquarters elements than on front-line troops. They could conceivably form all-psi battalions, but given the need for nobles as officers and as special force teams in the general army, these would be rare and intended for very special operations.

More important, if the Imperium has been bumping head with the Zho for centuries, then the Imperium has also been studying ways to deal with the Zho for centuries. The military would have devices like the psionic shield seen on Pebble in Expedition to Zhodane to secure areas from psi meddling, and they would most likely have technology to detect and locate active use of psi.

 

[Tobias]

Irrespective of rules sets, there are statistical limits. The bulk of Zho society is not noble or intendant,

Well, yeah, but about 20% are. (According to AM4.) That is quite enough to draw a considerable portion of the military from. Also see the article in JTAS 11, which describes the organization of an almost fully psionic commando unit.

(I should note that the JTAS article conflicts with the description of the Consular Guard in AM4. In AM4, the Consular Guard is closed to non-psionics entirely, but does not have a separate commando arm. I'd give preference to the JTAS article, since it is more fully developed and makes more sense.)

 

[GypsyComet]

Well, yeah, but about 20% are. (According to AM4.)

The PC generation system, which is inherently skewed somewhat toward "interesting", is not reflective of the "real" world.

 

[rancke]

The PC generation system, which is inherently skewed somewhat toward "interesting", is not reflective of the "real" world.

If it was, 100% would have psionic powers. Granted, some of them would have powers too weak to be useful, but they'd all have them.


Hans

 

[Tobias]

The PC generation system, which is inherently skewed somewhat toward "interesting", is not reflective of the "real" world.

Errm... these numbers are not from the PC generation system. They are found in the descriptive text about the Zhodani government.

If it was, 100% would have psionic powers. Granted, some of them would have powers too weak to be useful, but they'd all have them.

No they wouldn't? They would all have psionic potential, which is indeed how it works in Classic Traveller. To have psionic powers, you need training, and training is monopolized by the ruling class in Zhodani society.

 

[rancke]

No they wouldn't? They would all have psionic potential, which is indeed how it works in Classic Traveller. To have psionic powers, you need training, and training is monopolized by the ruling class in Zhodani society.

So when you say that 20% of Zhodani have psionic powers, you're referring to those that have 9+ power or something like that? And proles have exactly the same chance of having a given psionic potential as intendants and nobles, they just don't get tested?


Hans

 

[Tobias]

So when you say that 20% of Zhodani have psionic powers, you're referring to those that have 9+ power or something like that?

No, I'm referring to the fact that the descriptive text on the Zhodani Consulate tells us that the approximate percentage of nobles in Zhodani society is 5.6% and that it also tells us that there are roughly 8 intendants per 3 nobles. And then I did the math and rounded a bit for convenience.

And proles have exactly the same chance of having a given psionic potential as intendants and nobles, they just don't get tested?

No. They all get tested, and if they have high potential, they become intendants. By definition, there are no adult proles with untested high potential (barring unmentioned exceptions for reasons other than their psionic talent.)*
That psionic potential is not inherited but random is also explicitly stated in he descriptive text. And it's rather crucial for the Psionic Games' stated function in society.

*Well, intendants who commit an "insane" crime and are re-educated lose their intendant status and become proles again. So in theory, you'd have psionic proles, unless the Zhodani lobotomize them, which I can't really see happening. But then again, their re-education probably includes strong safeguards against future use of psionics.

Of course, this is just canon. If you see the Zhodani Consulate as less of a monolith, there could be variations on the system. IMTU, I could easily see that on a more liberal world, proles might be able to receive training. Telepathy would still be confined to the ruling classes, I suppose.

 

[rancke]

No. They all get tested, and if they have high potential, they become intendants. By definition, there are no adult proles with untested high potential (barring unmentioned exceptions for reasons other than their psionic talent.)*

OK, so that means that every generation 17% (6 out of 36) of the proles join the Intendants¹. Just how do the nobles keep the Intendant class down to 15%?

¹ Or is it 27% (10 out of 36) or 8% (3 out of 36)?​

Also, 72% of all second-generation nobles and intendants are less powerful than first-generation intendants, correct?


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Remember that the children of Zho nobles are nobles regardless of they psioinic ability, they can they actually gain quite a lot of Psi characteristic during character generation.

 

[Tobias]

OK, so that means that every generation 17% (6 out of 36) of the proles join the Intendants.

Only if you take the character generation rules as representative of TU as a whole, something I was falsely assumed to have done just a few posts ago. :nonono:

Indeed from the very rules themselves it is quite obvious that the character rules regarding psionics are not meant as a correct statistical representation of the entire Zhodani population, since there are suggestions for different methods of generating psi potential in AM4, which have very different statistical implications than the standard 2d method.

Generally speaking, the number-crunching part of the rules is the source I'd assign the lowest priority when establishing canon information.

 

[rancke]

Only if you take the character generation rules as representative of TU as a whole...

Since that was the premise for the statement you disagrred with, I took that as a given.


Hans

 

[Tobias]

Since that was the premise for the statement you disagrred with, I took that as a given

I have no idea what you are talking about or what you are trying to prove here. About 20% of the Zhodani population are nobles or intendants. All Zhodani nobles and intendants are trained in psionics, and no proles are. None of this information relies on inferences from character generation rules. It is explicitly stated in the descriptive text (and, incidentally, repeated in the rules-less alien races section of the MT Ref's Companion.)

 

[rancke]

I have no idea what you are talking about or what you are trying to prove here

I refer you to my post #26.


Hans

 

[Tobias]

I refer you to my post #26.

What you said in that post is simply not true, no matter whether you base it on the rules or the background description.

 

[GypsyComet]

What you said in that post is simply not true, no matter whether you base it on the rules or the background description.

Alright, let's back up a bit.

Psionic Potential is not inheritable, according to older material. The factors that lead an individual to have Potential are not known to Imperials, at least, and there are no indications except for the stated Zhodani social numbers to infer that the Zhodani have figured it out.

Noble status is inherited, but Noble position is not, since all positions above the baseline are elected.
Someone inherits the rank of Intendant, but I'm not convinced they are the children of Intendants.

The TU as a whole sees Psionic Potential in only a small percentage of the populace. That this happens to include all PCs is a stated assumption in at least one edition.

The idea that all Noble children are psions is either an artifact of PC generation or an indicator that the Zhodani are indeed different from Imperials when it comes to Potential. There have been Canon (IIRC) statements in the past to the effect that the Zhodani are NOT different with regards to Potential, so either that changed when I wasn't looking or the Consulate has a considerable population of non-Psion Nobles and Intendants who retain their positions through inertia.

 

[Tobias]

Psionic Potential is not inheritable, according to older material.

Correct.

The factors that lead an individual to have Potential are not known to Imperials, at least, and there are no indications except for the stated Zhodani social numbers to infer that the Zhodani have figured it out.

Actually, AM4 makes it quite clear that psionic potential is spread randomly among the Zhodani population as well.

Noble status is inherited, but Noble position is not, since all positions above the baseline are elected.

Well, yes, but these are simply two different things, similar to what they were in most of early modern Europe. Whether you're a duke or an earl doesn't say whether you're a junior or a senior councilman.

The TU as a whole sees Psionic Potential in only a small percentage of the populace.

There is no reason whatsoever to assume this. Quite the contrary, it rather appears that all humans have some psionic potential.

The idea that all Noble children are psions is either an artifact of PC generation or an indicator that the Zhodani are indeed different from Imperials when it comes to Potential.

Only if you assume that many humans have no psionic potential whatsoever. There is not the slightest reason in CT canon to assume this is the case.

so either that changed when I wasn't looking or the Consulate has a considerable population of non-Psion Nobles and Intendants who retain their positions through inertia.

Neither is the case. You base your conclusions on your (unfounded) assumption that some or indeed most humans have no psionic potential. Since all of CT canon supports the opposite assumption, namely that all humans do have at least minimal psionic potential, there are no non-psionic Zhodani nobles or intendants.

I don't know how post-MT editions handled this, because I never bothered to check their psionics rules. But in CT and MT, operating with the information we have, there is no reason to assume the existence of non-psionic nobles or intendants in Zhodani society. There are going to be weak-psionic nobles and intendants.

I think the misconception here is one of a "born" or even "racial" elite of psions ruling over non-psions. But the Zhodani system rather appears - and quite reasonably so, given its history - as a historically evolved ruling class monopolizing a certain "technology", in this case psionics. It is not defined by psionics. It uses psionics consciously as a measure of distinction (and an important aid in governing practice, although this only applies to telepathy.) Similarly to how ruling classes in Earth history monopolized certain types of military trainng.

 

[GypsyComet]

There is no reason whatsoever to assume this. Quite the contrary, it rather appears that all humans have some psionic potential.

See, this *was* useful. We now know how our assumptions differ, and how that has led to the more ... rousing ... disagreement.

Unfortunately, widespread Potential makes the Zhodani social model potentially unstable.

 

[Spinward Scout]

See, this *was* useful. We now know how our assumptions differ, and how that has led to the more ... rousing ... disagreement.

And on that note, I think I'm going to have to ask you fellas to take it outside. Or at least to another thread.

As this thread "was" about Zhodani Warbots. OffTopic a bit, but only a bit, as the "discussion" was an offshoot of Zhodani controlling Warbots.

It definitely seems to be a Topic that needs to be talked about.