Zhodani Warbots

[Carlobrand]

Well, yeah, but about 20% are. (According to AM4.) That is quite enough to draw a considerable portion of the military from. ...

I can't buy the notion that the Zho psis are going to shoulder a disproportionate load of the risk to buy a front-line grunt infantry edge that evaporates - in some cases literally - when you drop a nuke on their position. Most of the decisive operations are being carried by armor, ortillery and commandoes.

I can't find a reference in AM4 that actually states percentage of psionics in the society, but let's take your 20%. Now, let's apply it as a comparable figure for the military, on the reasonable argument that the typical noble/intendant wants more of a career than to be a potato peeler and target for CBMs. Maybe half that percentage goes to fill officer billets, give or take a bit; current U.S. trend's 13-14%, but that might be on the high side. In a battalion, that leaves about the equivalent of a platoon-strength psi-commando force for special operations. And that sound's about right - the bulk of the grunt work carried by the typical sad sack who fills out most armies, with nobles and intendants filling out the command ranks and a platoon of elite commandoes available at the battalion level for special operations in the battalion's area of operation - like reinforcing a hard-pressed infantry company or penetrating into the enemy rear to knock out an enemy artillery company.

That's regular army, of course, not the Guard; the Guard is an entirely different case, but that is an elite division, and there aren't many of them.

There's a good deal of ball-parking in that. Not all nobles are psionics, and as I said I couldn't actually find a percentage, but it's a workable estimate.

 

[GypsyComet]

And on that note, I think I'm going to have to ask you fellas to take it outside. Or at least to another thread.

...

It definitely seems to be a Topic that needs to be talked about.

I moved my statement on the matter to its own Topic ( http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=32635 ). Examining the whole of the literature instead of just CT produces a complex answer.

 

[Blue Ghost]

.... I wonder if it's possible to make a psionically enhanced warbot


I should be writing now. Time to find a fav movie or music CD, and get to work.

 

[Tobias]

I can't buy the notion that the Zho psis are going to shoulder a disproportionate load of the risk to buy a front-line grunt infantry edge

Zhodani "front-line grunts" are usually warbots. We're talking about psionic commandos.
Rest of the reply is found in the new thread.

 

[Tobias]

.... I wonder if it's possible to make a psionically enhanced warbot

Well, Zhodani warbots are all psionically enhanced insofar as they can be operated by psionic "flicking".

 

[McPerth]

I can't buy the notion that the Zho psis are going to shoulder a disproportionate load of the risk to buy a front-line grunt infantry edge that evaporates - in some cases literally - when you drop a nuke on their position. Most of the decisive operations are being carried by armor, ortillery and commandoes.

But that (only the upper society being able to bear arms) is not something unseen in human history. Indeed, it has been a very usual take in armies along history to asume that the defense of the country to be a duty and privilege of the citizenry, and in many cases citizenry were only the upper strata of the society.

From Classic Greece or Rome, where only citizens (and they were the upper strata) could be enlisted as lregular army members (non-citizens could join the Auxiliaries and even reach citizen status there in Rome), to most feudal societies, where only nobles were allowed to bear arms (and so to be true fighters, though some militias might join them in emergencies), only those upper strata were true fighters.

It was not until the US and French Revolutions that the whole population (or at least all free males) was seen as citizenry and so responsable of the country's defense.

And remember in Zhodani Consulate only nobles (I'm not sure about intendents) have right to vote, so I guess proles are ot consideed citizenry in the whole sense of the word...

No, I'm referring to the fact that the descriptive text on the Zhodani Consulate tells us that the approximate percentage of nobles in Zhodani society is 5.6% and that it also tells us that there are roughly 8 intendants per 3 nobles. And then I did the math and rounded a bit for convenience.

I can't find a reference in AM4 that actually states percentage of psionics in the society, but let's take your 20%. Now, let's apply it as a comparable figure for the military, on the reasonable argument that the typical noble/intendant wants more of a career than to be a potato peeler and target for CBMs. Maybe half that percentage goes to fill officer billets, give or take a bit; current U.S. trend's 13-14%, but that might be on the high side. In a battalion, that leaves about the equivalent of a platoon-strength psi-commando force for special operations. And that sound's about right - the bulk of the grunt work carried by the typical sad sack who fills out most armies, with nobles and intendants filling out the command ranks and a platoon of elite commandoes available at the battalion level for special operations in the battalion's area of operation - like reinforcing a hard-pressed infantry company or penetrating into the enemy rear to knock out an enemy artillery company.

I have no access to AM4 (one of the few CT alien modules I don't own, though I reada borrowed copy years ago), but if the numbers given by Tobias are there (and I have noreason to doubt about it), that gives the aprox 20% he talks about...

That's regular army, of course, not the Guard; the Guard is an entirely different case, but that is an elite division, and there aren't many of them.

As I understand Zhodani army, most of it is made by upperstrata, and many (if not most) of them are psionic trained. The cannon fodder is basically warbots, but even them need to be psionically controled (through the Psionic flickers).

IIRC, I read that the main requisite for the Consular Guard is not just psionics, but specificaly teleport ability, as their main misión is infiltration and extraction though teleport to conduct their missions. That makes me think that not all the non-officer nobles/intendents are in the consular guard, but only the selected ones that are able to teleport in combat.

There's a good deal of ball-parking in that. Not all nobles are psionics, and as I said I couldn't actually find a percentage, but it's a workable estimate.

ITTR having read in several places that all the nobles are psionically trained, though some of them are not powerful enough on it to be really useful in such a role..

I guess (no reference found about it) that not all nobles' siblings are nobles too. After all, in historical societies only the eldest son used to inherit the true noble status, the rest being lesser, usually non inheritable semi-nobleships, as the Spanish Hidalgos. And in MT:V&V is said that only the third noble's son was noble, so again limiting the inherited nobles somewhat.

Maybe (again, my guess, not found any reference about it) only one noble inherits nobleship in the Consulate (I'd bet the one with higher Psi potential), the rest becoming intendents...

 

[Tobias]

But that (only the upper society being able to bear arms) is not something unseen in human history. Indeed, it has been a very usual take in armies along history to asume that the defense of the country to be a duty and privilege of the citizenry, and in many cases citizenry were only the upper strata of the society.

Exactly. Considering that in the Zhodani Consulate, duty for the benefit of the state and society at large is a value of paramount importance, it is not difficult to imagine a similar approach.

And remember in Zhodani Consulate only nobles (I'm not sure about intendents) have right to vote, so I guess proles are ot consideed citizenry in the whole sense of the word...

Intendants cannot vote (on a Consular level, that is - local world government may be a different matter, and give even proles a vote) and indeed only nobles are full, enfranchised citizens of the Consulate.

As I understand Zhodani army, most of it is made by upperstrata, and many (if not most) of them are psionic trained.

The Zhodani military does employ proles, but a large percentage of ground forces participating in external wars would likely be Consular Guard troops, which are exclusively or mostly (sources differ a bit) composed of psionic upper class members.
The Consulate has little need for large armies in its core territories (even less so than the Imperium) and certainly no need for mass conscription of proles.

The cannon fodder is basically warbots, but even them need to be psionically controled (through the Psionic flickers).

Yes, and here we come back to the topic...

IMTU:
The Zhodani are generally quite unwilling to risk human life (Zhodani human life that is) in battle. Compared to the Imperium, they are quite a non-heroic society. Why? Because they are a) not used to violence either on a large or a small scale among themselves and b) there is a strong doctrine of protecting the prole population as a duty of the ruling class.

Only those few proles for whom it would be good psychological fit are encouraged and indeed allowed to join the military.

The warbot is the answer to the gap in front-line infantry capabilities that can arise as a consequence. Its disadvantages (high cost, limited intelligence) are seen as minor when compared to the advantage of saving prole lives.

ITTR having read in several places that all the nobles are psionically trained, though some of them are not powerful enough on it to be really useful in such a role..

Indeed.

I guess (no reference found about it) that not all nobles' siblings are nobles too.

Here you point to an unresolved problem: If birthrates are the same among all social classes, the Zhodani system would (even though one can sensibly assume that the character generation distribution of psi potential is not representative) swell the noble class.

 

[GypsyComet]

Here you point to an unresolved problem: If birthrates are the same among all social classes, the Zhodani system would (even though one can sensibly assume that the character generation distribution of psi potential is not representative) swell the noble class.

I'll just move this to here:
A 28% (9+ Potential, roughly) influx from the Proles to the Intendant/Noble ranks in every generation rapidly bogs down society with Intendants and Nobles. There are several ways to mitigate this, but all of them are big assumptions:

-Noble replacement birthrates are a small fraction of the Prole birthrate,
-The psionic Strength roll is purely gamist (ie. Skewed toward interesting), and the percentage who have 9+ is not actually reflected by 2d6,
-Nobles do not have full inheritability.

To handle the issue by itself, birthrate differences would need to be extreme. On the order of ten-to-one extreme, or more. That really favors at least some use of the other two.

 

[Tobias]

-The psionic Strength roll is purely gamist (ie. Skewed toward interesting), and the percentage who have 9+ is not actually reflected by 2d6,

That's not a big assumption at all. But nobles and intendants still need one of the other elements if there is any noticeable number of talented proles.

 

[GypsyComet]

That's not a big assumption at all.

You must not know any literalists.

 

[Tobias]

Well, it's not such a big assumption because...
a) There are several suggested methods for generating the psi potential of PCs so obviously no single one of them can accurately represent the statistical distribution among the general population.
b) In a parallel, Social Standing generation quite obviously does not represent the general population, because otherwise there would be >8% nobles in both Imperial and Zhodani society - and we know from the descriptive text that this is not the case.

 

[Carlobrand]

Zhodani "front-line grunts" are usually warbots. ...

No.

AM4, Warbots: "The Zhodani have long used mobile robots as part of their armed forces. These robots are not independently intelligent, and are by no means a replacement for humans as warriors. ... Warbots are assigned to shadow one trooper or one group of troopers, remaining a preset distance ahead of, beside, or behind. ... One or more warbots will be fitted out as a point, or most forward unit. ... The point is the most vulnerable and the first to contact the enemy; robots are considered more expendable than people."

The bot is a resource for the grunt, picking up point, providing extra firepower and taking the dangerous chances that would otherwise fall to some unlucky grunt. The bot can conduct a close pursuit of retreating enemies without worrying (as much) about the potential of the retreat being a ruse to lure the attacker into ambush. The bot can cover the retreat of its own force without that force worrying about leaving men behind to be captured or killed. What the bot cannot do is take the initiative, which is something any decently trained grunt can do. The bot supports the grunt; the bot does not take the place of the grunt.

And while you may well have been discussing commandoes, I've been discussing the regular army which will form the bulk of Zhodani forces and therefore the bulk of front line interactions between Zho and Imperial forces, evolving from a comment discussing those interactions.

But that (only the upper society being able to bear arms) is not something unseen in human history. Indeed, it has been a very usual take in armies along history to asume that the defense of the country to be a duty and privilege of the citizenry, and in many cases citizenry were only the upper strata of the society.

From Classic Greece or Rome, where only citizens (and they were the upper strata) could be enlisted as lregular army members (non-citizens could join the Auxiliaries and even reach citizen status there in Rome), to most feudal societies, where only nobles were allowed to bear arms (and so to be true fighters, though some militias might join them in emergencies), only those upper strata were true fighters.

It was not until the US and French Revolutions that the whole population (or at least all free males) was seen as citizenry and so responsable of the country's defense.

Very culture dependent and inaccurate in spots. It was medieval practice, for example, for a noble to have the right to call up his peasants as levies, obliged to fight under his command as what amounted to untrained and poorly equipped light infantry - at least for a period of time; by custom, they were only obliged to a set number of days, and they needed to be sent home for harvest. The Brits stepped this up a notch by requiring everyone to practice with the longbow so they'd have skilled bowmen to call up from the commonfolk; that so pissed off the French that they'd sometimes cut off the string fingers of bowmen they captured. (Supposedly leading to that Brit two-fingered salute as a gesture of contempt to the French.)

Where the franchise of arms is reserved to an elite, it is true that warfare, by definition, becomes a role for the elite as they seek to cooperatively defend and expand their influence. However, the elite in war remain elite: war among the Greeks for example was pretty ritualized until someone realized they could grab an advantage by breaking with custom, and medieval nobles counted on ransom as a means of ensuring their own personal survival and profiting from the defeat of their opposing numbers - no such civilized arrangement awaited the levy. Brits of the Victorian era made sure they had plenty of natives available to do the fighting and dying for them, using their own Brit-born troops as elite forces to spearhead and stiffen (and sometimes discipline) the local forces.

I don't have a problem seeing Zho nobles and intendants forming all of an elite force like the Guard or taking key roles such as commando/special forces roles. I do have a problem seeing Zho nobles take what amounts to a levy/conscript role. Well, maybe the word "conscript" doesn't quite fit what I'm meaning since the various armed forces are voluntary (I think), but you get the idea, I hope. "Guy that teleports in to wreak havoc on the enemy," is a noble role. "Guy that telepathically pulls the pins on the enemy grenade." is a noble role. "Guy that sits in a foxhole for two weeks beside the metal cannon fodder, surviving on C-rations and waiting for the enemy to show up, when the cluster bombs suddenly start falling on our lines and thinning our ranks," that's not a noble role - that's a grunt role.

...As I understand Zhodani army, most of it is made by upperstrata, and many (if not most) of them are psionic trained. The cannon fodder is basically warbots, but even them need to be psionically controled (through the Psionic flickers). ...

I don't see any canon reference that suggests most of the Zho regular army is "upper strata." As I pointed out above, the bots might indeed be cannon fodder, but they don't replace the role of the grunt in the front line force - they support it. That bit about their needing to be psionically controlled is an interesting point, but it can be handled by a low level officer or an NCO with the necessary skill - doesn't mean Private Jones has the ability, nor do you necessarily want Private Jones and his one-stripe fellows all simultaneously trying to get the bot to do what they want while in the heat of battle.

 

[Tobias]

AM4, Warbots: " ... One or more warbots will be fitted out as a point, or most forward unit. ... The point is the most vulnerable and the first to contact the enemy; robots are considered more expendable than people."

This is exactly the section I'm referring to. You were talking about alleged Zhodani noble unwillingness to take risks. That is - and at least that's how I read that section - something that Zhodani, not just nobles, use robots for.

"Guy that sits in a foxhole for two weeks beside the metal cannon fodder, surviving on C-rations and waiting for the enemy to show up, when the cluster bombs suddenly start falling on our lines and thinning our ranks," that's not a noble role - that's a grunt role.

Well, Alien Realms has a whole unit of Zhodani nobles and intendants doing basically just that. How do you imagine the Consular Guard - composed entirely of upper class members as it is - would operate otherwise?

That bit about their needing to be psionically controlled is an interesting point, but it can be handled by a low level officer or an NCO with the necessary skill

There are no psionic NCOs in the Zhodani military.

I also would argue that your line of thinking that upper classes and higher ranks tend to avoid risks and leave them to "grunts" is flawed and operates from a limited perspective. For example in the Wehrmacht, which was quite a class-conscious force, officers suffered disproportionally higher KIA rates than enlisted men did. Also, the most capable officers were usually assigned to combat roles.

 

[Carlobrand]

...Well, Alien Realms has a whole unit of Zhodani nobles and intendants doing basically just that. How do you imagine the Consular Guard - composed entirely of upper class members as it is - would operate otherwise?

I would expect them, as an elite division, to be assigned missions appropriate to an elite division. I would expect all members of an elite division to pull their weight. And if a general assigns an elite division to do a job like holding territory instead of using their elite skills to break the enemy's back, then I expect that it's because it is very important territory and they expect it to come under the kind of attack that they need an elite division to repel, or else I would sack the general.

...I also would argue that your line of thinking that upper classes and higher ranks tend to avoid risks and leave them to "grunts" is flawed and operates from a limited perspective. For example in the Wehrmacht, which was quite a class-conscious force, officers suffered disproportionally higher KIA rates than enlisted men did. Also, the most capable officers were usually assigned to combat roles.

Feel free to argue it, but I didn't say it. There's nothing risk-free about teleporting behind enemy lines to take on a headquarters unit or an artillery unit. What I believe I said - and if I was fuzzy or unclear, my apologies - was that the idea of the Zho noble taking all the risks while the bakers and plumbers get to stay home baking and plumbing doesn't cut it for me, and I see nothing in canon to suggest it. The Zho noble in war takes on the roles and the risks commensurate with his skills and abilities - and so does the plumber. When the regular Imperial army meets the regular Zho army in battle, the guy driving the Zho tank is likely to be a regular Joe Zho, as is the guy sitting in the Zho foxhole hoping against hope that the Imperials decide to postpone their attack today. If you can find something in canon to say different, I'll be glad to consider it.

Now, when the sh*t hits the fan and that guy needs help, the squad or platoon that Battalion sends forward to give the attacking Impie company hell and break up their attack by teleporting behind them and shooting them from behind or by pulling grenade pins or whatever - those are nobles and intendants. The guys that are behind enemy lines trying to blow up supply depots and ambush supply caravans and kill the enemy colonel and in general force the enemy to pull forces from their own line and commit them rearward, who are trying to spoil the enemy's plan of attack before the enemy can make his attack, thereby making Joe Zho's hopes a reality, while Joe Zho sits in his foxhole and does his duty holding the line, those are nobles and intendants. Not exactly hazard-free duty, that.

 

[Tobias]

And if a general assigns an elite division to do a job like holding territory instead of using their elite skills to break the enemy's back, then I expect that it's because it is very important territory

And do you think that fox holes, cluster bombs and such things do not exist in important territory?

The Zho noble in war takes on the roles and the risks commensurate with his skills and abilities - and so does the plumber.

I doubt that any Zhodani forces are composed of anything but professional soldiers. The Zhodani are (canonically) a society which helps its members, especially proles, to work in positions they are psychologically suited for. The Zhodani Consulate has no need for large ground armies internally, and the ground armies it does deploy in its relatively few external wars are so small compared to the population to the Consulate (several trillion, conservatively estimated) that there should be no need to force plumbers, bakers or other "sad sacks" as you would put it into service. So yes, bakers and plumbers will indeed stay home. (The existence of a "draft" in the character generation system is something I'll happily ignore in this regard, as I do for Imperial characters.)

Some points to consider...
1.) Zhodani nobles and intendants serve as officers in regular, front-line army units. Zhodani units have more officiers than Imperial units. Most of them are not psionic specialists but then again, even psionic specialists are directly attached to frontline units (STRIKER.)
2.) In many, if not most modern era militaries (not in the 2014 US military, I'll admit) officers take as much or more casualties, proportionally speaking, as enlisted men do.
3.) Zhodani nobles and intendants (intendants especially) have not only a strong sense of duty in service of the state drilled into them, but also a lot of distinction to be gained from exemplary service.
4.) To mention the Consular Guards for the umpteenth time, the Zhodani have an entire arm of the military exclusively made up of nobles and intendants. An arm of the military which is likely to be deployed at the most crucial and dangerous points.

5.) And finally, to come back to the topic: The Zhodani deploy warbots extensively. Warbot operations benefit massively from psionic flicking, which only nobles and intendants can use. If the warbot is to help the "grunts" as you would put it, there need to be nobles and intendants in close proximity (flicking has a very limited range.)

 

[rancke]

5.) And finally, to come back to the topic: The Zhodani deploy warbots extensively. Warbot operations benefit massively from psionic flicking, which only nobles and intendants can use. If the warbot is to help the "grunts" as you would put it, there need to be nobles and intendants in close proximity (flicking has a very limited range.)

Something I've been wondering about (I don't have the CT Zho module). What are the rules for psionic flicking? What abilities do you need and how many times a day can you use it?


Hans

 

[McPerth]

And while you may well have been discussing commandoes, I've been discussing the regular army which will form the bulk of Zhodani forces and therefore the bulk of front line interactions between Zho and Imperial forces, evolving from a comment discussing those interactions.

IIRC, the Zhodani concept for comandos is not the stealthy, trained above regular soldier individual that we think about, but the main (if not only ) reason to put them in the Consular Guard is the ability to telport. As high as other psi powers are or as well as you're trained, if you cannot teleport, you cannot enter the Guard.

And that makes the Consular Guard probably the only part of the entire Zhodani armies that don't use warbots, as (AFAIK) no way to teleport them has yet achieved.

Very culture dependent and inaccurate in spots. It was medieval practice, for example, for a noble to have the right to call up his peasants as levies, obliged to fight under his command as what amounted to untrained and poorly equipped light infantry - at least for a period of time; by custom, they were only obliged to a set number of days, and they needed to be sent home for harvest. The Brits stepped this up a notch by requiring everyone to practice with the longbow so they'd have skilled bowmen to call up from the commonfolk; that so pissed off the French that they'd sometimes cut off the string fingers of bowmen they captured. (Supposedly leading to that Brit two-fingered salute as a gesture of contempt to the French.)

Where the franchise of arms is reserved to an elite, it is true that warfare, by definition, becomes a role for the elite as they seek to cooperatively defend and expand their influence. However, the elite in war remain elite: war among the Greeks for example was pretty ritualized until someone realized they could grab an advantage by breaking with custom, and medieval nobles counted on ransom as a means of ensuring their own personal survival and profiting from the defeat of their opposing numbers - no such civilized arrangement awaited the levy. Brits of the Victorian era made sure they had plenty of natives available to do the fighting and dying for them, using their own Brit-born troops as elite forces to spearhead and stiffen (and sometimes discipline) the local forces.

Yes, the nobles recruiting the levies as you say, and even forced the freemen (mostly the yeomenry that owned land) to be trained in some weapon, as you say English did with the longbow, Catalans with the crosbow, and I guess other countries with other weapons. Yet this only affected the freemen and yeomanry, not the serbs or slaves, so, again, the upper strata of the society.

And when joining the "regular" (probably better said the full time) army, they raised their status.

I don't have a problem seeing Zho nobles and intendants forming all of an elite force like the Guard or taking key roles such as commando/special forces roles. I do have a problem seeing Zho nobles take what amounts to a levy/conscript role. Well, maybe the word "conscript" doesn't quite fit what I'm meaning since the various armed forces are voluntary (I think), but you get the idea, I hope. "Guy that teleports in to wreak havoc on the enemy," is a noble role. "Guy that telepathically pulls the pins on the enemy grenade." is a noble role. "Guy that sits in a foxhole for two weeks beside the metal cannon fodder, surviving on C-rations and waiting for the enemy to show up, when the cluster bombs suddenly start falling on our lines and thinning our ranks," that's not a noble role - that's a grunt role.

That depends on what your society consideres a noble duty. For some societies, to have enough force of will to stay several days in your foxhole keeping the ground without complaining might be a sign of nobility.

And if it is seen as below noble dignity, whell that's what warbots are for too. They will not fatigue, nor sleep, nor be distracted by hunger or daydreams...

I don't see any canon reference that suggests most of the Zho regular army is "upper strata." As I pointed out above, the bots might indeed be cannon fodder, but they don't replace the role of the grunt in the front line force - they support it. That bit about their needing to be psionically controlled is an interesting point, but it can be handled by a low level officer or an NCO with the necessary skill - doesn't mean Private Jones has the ability, nor do you necessarily want Private Jones and his one-stripe fellows all simultaneously trying to get the bot to do what they want while in the heat of battle.

Private Jones, being a prole, has no access to psi training (and sure no powerful psi forcé, as he's not been raised to intendent). So he cnanot so effectively control his "buddy" warbot, needing a noble officer or intendent warrant officer (IIRC that's what intendents are) to control it.

As Tobias says, flicking has short range, and I guess not many warbots can be so controled at once, so, at least, the ratio officers (warrant or not) to enlisted must be quite high, forcing the Zhodani army to have (again at least) a disproportionate representation of the upper social strata on it.

 

[McPerth]

Something I've been wondering about (I don't have the CT Zho module). What are the rules for psionic flicking? What abilities do you need and how many times a day can you use it?


Hans

As told before, neither I have access now to AM4, but ITTR the rules are described in it. Again IIRC they only pay psi cost for range and is an ability most (if not all) nobles and intendents are trained to, independent from other abilities.

 

[Tobias]

Something I've been wondering about (I don't have the CT Zho module). What are the rules for psionic flicking? What abilities do you need and how many times a day can you use it?

AM4 says there are no costs for minor, on-off operations such as operating a door switch. However, there is a maximum range of 50 meters. All psionically trained Zhodani, no matter what other psionic talents they have or have not learned, are capable of flicking (and shielding their minds, for that matter.)
Bk8 says that operating computers (and presumably, considering it's in Bk8, robots) by flicking costs 1 psi point plus range per hour of constant operations.

 

[McPerth]

Just another thing that came to my mind when recalling what I read years ago in AM4.

Again IIRC, Edu was limited by Soc, so making all low Soc proles also low Edu people. If we asume a high tech army needs its soldiers to be milimally educated (and I guess one with a high ratio of warbots even more, for maintenance reasons), that would (again) exclude the lower strata of the society from it.