Wounding Rules

[robject]

Fellow Travellers,

I'm trying to get a good grasp of wounding rules -- what works well, what doesn't, and if one of the Traveller rulesets has "superior" rules regarding wounding, and why. What's fast, versus what's more interesting, perhaps. Or is there a system that's both fast and good?

CT had primitive wounding rules. I won't say they're easy, because there have been recent discussions about how difficult it is to fully understand them.

MT split penetration from damage, which appears to be popular with many people, although I haven't put the time in to fully understand it. If I recall correctly, it's a matter of how much damage to apply -- none, half, full, or more -- based on penetration (based on the to-hit roll?).

I don't know anything about TNE, GT, or T20. Anyone care to enlighten me?

T4 went back to CT, perhaps with some streamlining.

Any opinions and information out there?

Update Here's some thoughts to consider where wounding is concerned:

Types of Wounding. Kinetic. Plasma. Laser. Decompression. Vacuum. Suffocation. Poison. Acid. Cold. Heat. Pain. Radiation. Tranq?

Agencies of Wounding? Explosion. Gas. Mishap. Noxious or corrosive environments.

Armor. Effectiveness against various forms of wounding. And how wounding type affects various forms of armor.

 

[kaladorn]

I have experience with (or copies of) all systems.

CT: Several possible interpretations that vary in lethality. Wounds reduce competence as an ongoing thing (reducing stats). System is fairly simple and mostly works, but armour penetration is all or nothing (if you get through, you do full damage) and the combat system as a whole has a lot of mod matrices.

ACQ: A lot like CT, with the strictest interpretation of first shot assignment, except includes blunt trauma (non penetrating damage) and armour is a damage reducer. Also more task oriented and less 'matrix reference'. This (having read it now and played systems very like it, since it has a snapshot/AHL flavour) is probably one of the most realistic/miniatures oriented versions of the rules. First shot will probably drop you out of the fight, though you may not die very quickly. Armour matters. Cover matters. Wounds do detract from your performance.

MT: Has one number to be knocked out, one to be dead (ish). Stats don't drop off during a gunfight. Shots do from 1 to 3 points of damage
typically and the knockout threshold is usually 2-3 points. Armour reduces damage. The idea of critical success grants minimum damage (at least on the Ref's screen version) which helps prevent the inability to penetrate and represents hitting the weak points. You lose stats between fights, rather than during a fight. One of the CotI members is a paramedic, and he says this is probably closest to reality based on adrenalin, etc. He maintains people are hard to kill unless you hit the brain or heart directly. Otherwise, it is exanguination (blood loss) that kills you. Hit a major artery and it happens fairly quick (still quite a few combat rounds), but don't do that and you might be out of the fight, but you aren't going to die for a while (that 'Golden Hour'). So in MT, you can go out of the fight reasonably readily, but you probably won't die from that shot unless it is with something ludicrous or someone gets 8 more on the dice than they needed to hit you or something yielding high damage multiples (the proverbial head shot). Also MT has mechanics for quick shots, rapid fire, and called shots. Due to the mechanics of armour penetration, most shots do reduced damage. It is somewhat Striker-esque, but the Striker damage resolution for penetrations is a bit different in results.

I'll get to the others later. My observations however of these ones:

1. CT - depending on how you run it (the first shot rule and critical hits), it can be either cinematic in feel (very hard to drop a character without literally riddling them with rounds) or fairly easy to drop them (one good 3D shot that hits first shot will likely do 10.5 to one stat, dropping a 7 pt average stat character). It does reduce stats on an ongoing basis, which can be quite cinematic in effect. But it does lead to the STR 1, DEX 3, END 4 character still fighting. And CT combat involves a bunch of table lookups for armour modifiers and range modifiers and ability levels at which pluses kick in.

2. MT is less table intensive, but I find most wounds are either 3 points of damage or 1 point of damage, out of your available 3 to unconciousness. If you have no armour, one shot generally downs you unless it was a really marginal hit. So it seems to usually devolve to 1 or 3 hits dropping a character. The lack of stat reduction during a fight is probably a bit more real (adrenalin/combat focus/etc). But I find it almost a little too deterministic for my taste.

3. ACQ appears to be more than just wounding - it is a whole philosophy of how to run a combat. It is a bit more technical, but the implementation makes players learn to respect gunfights and to behave accordingly - use cover, pause to give yourself reaction opportunities, shoot aimed shots, etc. I like it for that, but the wounding also seems to take into account blunt-force trauma and the game probably still plays a bit like a real gunfight. And it has lots of weapons systems and whatnot in it to play with, many of which are not explicitly in the traveller rules. The weapons tables don't match up exactly, but they're close enough.

ACQ - At Close Quarters (Available from BITS)
MT - Megatraveller (Available as DRM'd PDF from Drive Thru RPG or on E-bay)
CT - Classic Traveller (Reprints available from a variety of sources, originals still on E-bay)

 

[aramis]

Kaladorn's assessment of MT is, well, quite incomplete about damage rates.

Two terms apply to the base damage

DP done = Dbase * Pfactor * Sfactor.

P factor can be x0 (P?0.1AV), x0.1 (0.1AV?p?AV), x0.5 (AV?P? 2AV), or x1 (P?=2AV)

S Factor is derived from ammount to hit task made by
0 (Exact minimum roll) x1/2
+1 x1
+2 +3 x2
+4 to +7 x4
+8 or more x8

Most damages are in the 0.5*0.5*3=0.75 ~1DP to 2x0.5*3 = 3 FOR ARMORED TARGETS, with occasional bounces to 6 DP.

For unarmored targets, or "incidental armors" (like heavy clothing), many weapons will be doing 0.5 to 6 DP, with occasional pops to 12 DP. 12DP, by the way, is enough to "Combat Kill" outright even mr BBBxxx Thug... he might survive, but he's been out for at least 10 minutes...

the MT DP is roughly equal to a CT die, but yes, most weapons have damage of 3. If you have AHL or Striker, you can do similar with the stats. If it has a damage level mod, adjust the 3 DP base by that... and have fun.... Oh, and post combat, or when DP total is exhausted, one converts the DP into stat damage, almost like CT, and with similar effect. (IE, the adrenaline wore off... OUCH!) and the DP are 1/3 the total of STR+DEX+END. about 1/3 are in the DPtoUnc; the remainder are the additional amount to combat kill...

So, in MT, the lil' ol' .22 CAN kill you in one shot! (You're tied up, for -1 Diff, and they take an extra round to aim, for another..., and it's close... they need a negative number to hit you... so they can get that +8 or better, and do 2x8x1=16dp = 16 dice to 3 attributes....)

Now, the damage minimums are after armor, so if you made to hit by 2+, they you will do no less than 1 point, no matter the rounding. By 4 you do minimum 2 points, no matter the rounding. by 8 and you do a minimum 3 points, no matter the rounding. 3 points is enough to stun and knock down most humans, and even a weak virushi.

T20
Stamina are rolled per level; they are similar to HP. Armor doesn't help them When all are gone, you are KO'd.
Lifeblood is equal to CON... when all are gone, you die. Damage drastically reduced by armor.
Damage is rolled once; reduced amount to LB, total roll to Stamina...
So, youthful troopies and thugs drop before they die. Experienced Troopers and Mercs will fight until yyou blow them to pieces.... Older thugs will die as they go unconscious.

Add armor, however, and the 20 YO is in a world of hurt... he's gonna die from knife to throat, not LB loss.... and the 7 term vilani Marine Master Gunny is going to take inhuman amounts of fire to kill, and may or may not go unconscious before then. And that older thug, he's going to be uncoscious after the second hit, and may or may not be alive.

GT is typical GURPS; if your health is high, you can survive some INCREDIBLY damaging hits with a few lucky rolls... but one good hit with lucky damage followed by a blown health roll can make even a .22 a threat.

In general tho, GURPS is very much "How negative are you?" and "can you make the roll at the current penalty"; it does recreate realism this way, but it also suffers for the same. Damage halves at a weapon determined range.

At one time, if no active defense applied, you got to roll PD alone, based solely upon armor, so any bullet could be harmlessly deflected; if you made an active defense, PD added to the defense roll. In either case, PD made you harder to hit. Since 2nd ed, however, IIUC, the PD-only option is gone... so you have to dodge to get a chance your armor deflected.

If you get past the defense roll, armor ALSO reduces damage. Often by relatively meaningless amounts in the short term. (DR is underrated, IMO, for many armors, and yet damages likewise feel too low... it shows it's roots in TFT.... and many post-modern armors are way too effective.)

TNE is basically roll to hit, location, roll damage. Damage is by location, and the average PC can take a .22 crit in the head, and keep on going (1d6-1,x2, max 10, which for many PC's is less than moderate wounds... at 2xcon) Likewise, an NPC can't be killed by a crit to the head (ALL NPC's need 21 points to die, tracked as a single pool... and take double damage from head hits... so a head maxes at 20...). Many people switched to using D10's to combat the low damage vs PC's.... and Crits are an optional rule. Major wounds to head or chest put one out of action. In short, TNE makes a clear distinction between hero and spearchucker....

 

[kaladorn]

Aramis, that's a nice theory you have there (re MT damage). I just re-read it last night.

You get either a high, low, or zero penetration hit.

Zero penetration hits with slug throwers or a laser rifle will require you to get an exceptional success to score any damage. 0.1 x weapon damage of up to 4 means that you're doing 0.4, which rounds to zero. The one reference I saw cleary in the rules says round down, though it was in another case than this one, so there is some ambiguity (didn't check my errata) on how this particular zero penetration result is evaluated.

Zero penetration is not uncommon in slug-thrower vs. cloth armour. Or laser vs. reflec. Or most weapons vs. cbt armour or BD.

If you don't get zero penetration, you generally get low penetration (0.5 x weapon damage). This happens when Pen less than 2x AV. In this case, most slug throwers will end up doing a point of damage if you round down, maybe 2 points if you round up.

In high penetration, you'll do your full damage.
But it takes an unarmoured target or really powerful ordinance (top end laser rifle, energy weapons) to get this kind of result vs. normally worn armours (cloth, CES, etc).

So, the average case might be low penetration for half damage. So that is usually a point.

Now, looking at exceptional success, it seems like Aramis is banking on lots of exceptional successes to give ludicrous damage result. You *can* get +8 hits, if your opponent is snoozing in a park bench and you walk up, aim, and shoot him in the temple. Much more realistic, which is what I assumed in my original examples are results between barely hit and +3 over. So the +2 or 3 gaurantees you 1 point, doubles the damage (which we've priorly pointed out as being around 1 on average or 1.5 if you figure you don't round until the end step).
So you will do 2 to 3 points. If you were shooting a pistol against the guy in cloth, you'll be doing 1 point (which is a dice of damage when wounds are resolved). You *can* get +4 (min 2 damage, 2x damage) or +8, but it isn't that likely.

So, yes, you *can*, in some fantastic world, do 16 points of damage. Most of the times I've played PC on bad guy fights, average armour values and slugthrowers have meant damage in the 'didn't penetrate' (marginal hit on a low or zero penetration result) to about 3 points damage. Yes, once in a while, somebody scores 4-6 points. Usually that won't kill you dead, but might seriously wound you.

The idea that the .22 will kill you pretty much means that someone held it to your eye though. If someone shoots you with a 2 damage point weapon with penetration 1, most armour will make that a low or zero penetration hit, so you'll be getting a base damage of 0.2 or 1 damage point, multiplied by the result of your roll. If your target is doing the normal defensive things or you have to snapshoot, you'll likely be getting a hit in the +0 to +3 range IF you hit at all. Which means you might do 2 points of damage. On a really good day, you might manage to get +4 to +7 and score 4 points of damage and actually knock someone out. Kill them outright? Even 8 points might, but that pretty much requires an idealized shot.

So, realistically, average bullet damage (and I've probably run on the order of 40 or 50 sessions with gunfights, including conventions) is probably in the 1 to 4 points with the average closer to 1 than 4.

Of course, if your world is loaded with guys of skill 3+, Dex 15, FGMPs, or plenty of time to shoot at opponents who are snoozing on a bench, then you might just regularly see damage totals like 6, 8, 12 or 16.

 

[robject]

Ok, here's my second revision of concepts for wounding:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> - The Nature of Damage: >
Attacks must first penetrate armor, then damage takes place.
Some damage is external, and some is internal.
Some may damage some types of armor.
Some are applied immediately, some are applied over time.
Some may temporarily effect INT.

Combat involves deliberate attacks by combatants. Chemical and
biological attacks are impersonal and happen every combat round.

- Armor effects: |

Armor protection
Shield protection
Armor penetration or circumvention
Damaging armor

- Damage Descriptions: |

Damage Type Sev Possible Defenses

pain int imm medication
suffocation/vacuum int imm air supply

stun ext imm shielding/G-compensation
shrapnel ext imm armor, shielding
projectiles ext imm armor, shielding
subatomic particles ext imm specialized armor/sheilding

cold int pro environmental armor/shielding
heat (laser) ext pro environmental armor/shielding
light (laser) ext imm reflec shielding
plasma ext imm special armor/sheilding
radioactive decay ext imm special armor/shielding

radiation int pro antidote, special armor/shielding
poison/tranq int pro antidote
acid ext pro antidote, armor/shielding
pathogenic int pro antidote, immune response, armor/shielding
internal bleeding int pro medical attention


Notes:

Some of these damage types can lead to other damage types.
For example, a grenade might do concussive damage as well
as shrapnel damage, which may in turn cause internal bleeding.


Stun damage is impact damage to the body.
Temporary damage to INT occurs as well as normal damage.
Examples: Being hit by a car. Falling. Decompression.
Concussive damage.


Types:

ext: External damage to the recipient. Can damage armor.
int: Internal damage to the recipient.


Effects:

imm: effect is immediate, or duration is only until the agency is removed.
pro: damage is protracted over time.</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[aramis]

I routinely see hits for 3 points of damage... partly because I employ social penalties when armor is worn too casually. Then again, most people are wearing far less than cloth armor...

For troops, well, 2 points is going to be rather common on their end (armored in cloth or better), and cloth is a five AV. Mesh is 2. Jack is 1. A hnting rifle burns through jack (Pen5) and Mesh slows it. THat Cloth-2 is also pen'd. Half of 3 is 1.5; hit by 2+ (about 1/3 of hits) is double that to 3, then round, with minimum 1. Against cloth, that's 0.1x3x2 = 0.6, but the minimum 1 makes it count. A Tailored Vacc Suit is AV3... and is the most common "armor" for non troops... and it's not terribly common.

If you aren't a merc, odds are good you shouldn't be armored. Use those LL rules, and all of a sudden, armor is a problem. Battledress goes out at LL3 (as it's purely military hardware); jack is probably legal to LL9, provided it's not obviously for armor. Mesh is probably gone by LL7, and cloth at 3. tailored vacc suits depend a lot on environments... but assuming habitable biosphere, probably go away around LL7 as well.

I've seen far too many PC's take good sniping action, to reduce diffs, and get +8 results. High-pen is auto if the target isn't in armor. get them out of armor, and damages are rather high (1,3,6, or 12 points).

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Aramis:
I routinely see hits for 3 points of damage... partly because I employ social penalties when armor is worn too casually. Then again, most people are wearing far less than cloth armor...

YTU vs. MTU.

None of my players is a noble. They tend to be ex-military or scout or merchant types. A lot of times they are doing something to make money (classic 76 Patrons style or Book 7 style) or they are working for a corporation or government agency. Often times this involves being armed when operational. Consequently, it involves being armoured (often with low profile versions of the armours, tailored).

So in your case, gunfights happen unarmoured, in mine, not so much.

For troops, well, 2 points is going to be rather common on their end (armored in cloth or better), and cloth is a five AV. Mesh is 2. Jack is 1. A hnting rifle burns through jack (Pen5) and Mesh slows it.

I find the most common armour cloth or cloth + reflec, sometimes a CES or tailored vacc suit. I find the most common weapons to be gauss pistol, rifle, ACR, assault rifle, SMG. Snub pistols if in space.

THat Cloth-2 is also pen'd. Half of 3 is 1.5; hit by 2+ (about 1/3 of hits) is double that to 3, then round, with minimum 1. Against cloth, that's 0.1x3x2 = 0.6, but the minimum 1 makes it count. A Tailored Vacc Suit is AV3... and is the most common "armor" for non troops... and it's not terribly common.

The data sheets I have from WBH or wherever seemed to suggest an AV of 6 for some of the vacc suits (I remember querying the fact a .50 M2HB wouldn't penetrate...). A combat environment suit is armour value 6. Since weapons are common, I'm not quite sure why *armour* shouldn't be. Even a flak jacket (bullet proof vest) is 3. And if you've seen the evolution of vests from their first invention to now, they can now stop a lot more with a lot less - so I question whether a TL-8 or TL-9 flak vest isn't the low-profile vest that the RCMP wears under their uniform shirts that will stop most handguns.

Most adventurers I know will have low profile armour if not real visible armour. When they're going into hostile territory (boarding actions, etc), they'll dig out the heavier armours. If they are doing bodygaurd duty, it is probably a low profile vest plus a trenchoat liberally panelled with kevlar inserts and maybe carbon fibre or boron inserts.

Now, if we were talking about average folks on the streets getting into gunfights, 3 points would be de rigeur. I'm talking about professionals who are usually ready for the fight.

If you aren't a merc, odds are good you shouldn't be armored.

1. I don't necessarily agree. If I was going to parts of the world where things were unstable and where I might get shot at, I'd want low profile body armour. That's what most of Traveller space is like! Especially the parts PCs get to.
2. If I followed the logic that said I should not be armoured, I also probably would not be armed and would not be involved in gunfights.

Use those LL rules, and all of a sudden, armor is a problem. Battledress goes out at LL3 (as it's purely military hardware); jack is probably legal to LL9, provided it's not obviously for armor. Mesh is probably gone by LL7, and cloth at 3.

Cloth *might* get you eyes at LL3, but I doubt it would be illegal until more like LL5-7. I agree with you on Jack. Mesh... is a funny armour to begin with.

And remember, much of traveller happens out in extrality zones or out in space. Just as modern ships often carry firearms aboard, and in a safer world relatively than traveller, most ship's lockers will include some weapons and if the ship is a PC ship, some armour. All very legally.

tailored vacc suits depend a lot on environments... but assuming habitable biosphere, probably go away around LL7 as well.

THAT, with respect, I utterly doubt. Maybe to wander around at LL9, they might be banned. But we don't ban nomex coveralls nor kevlar reinforced snowboarding gear. This is *safety* gear. It would be odd to see it beyond the starport, but on many asteroid colonies or the like, it might be *very* common. In the starports (LL4) and on ships, it will be the most common site imaginable at higher TL.

And CES can be tailored to look like a BDU uniform. So it is quite reasonable to imagine low profile armour values between 3 and 6.

At least, IMTU.

[/QB]
I've seen far too many PC's take good sniping action, to reduce diffs, and get +8 results. High-pen is auto if the target isn't in armor. get them out of armor, and damages are rather high (1,3,6, or 12 points). [/QB]

My players don't usually kill those that are non-combatants and usually only kill those who are themselves armed (and often armoured). So they also tend not to *start* fights too often. Thus they don't do a lot of sniping. +0 to +3 is a far more common band, with graze (+0) hits being fairly common.

This comes down a lot to style of play. I'll simply say the game system can be played either way, depending on your setting. For that matter, everyone can have an FGMP-15 tucked up their sleeve. It really just depends how you like the game or how you see YTU.

But at the end of the day, neither of us can really assert much about what the probabilities in the rules are, since the results are so dependent on character stats, skills, preparations, armour, weapons, etc. - mostly 'individual game' issues.

 

[robject]

Alright, I've revised my notes on Wounding further.

Here are different kinds of woundings. A minus sign (-) indicates that the damage is protracted, but decreases in intensity over time, while an asterisk (*) indicates that damage is protracted and steady until the cause is removed, perhaps. I wonder if there are (+) types of wounding that actually increase damage over time (didn't the acid damage in Chamax Plague do this?).


pain
suffocation
stun
area damage
projectiles (puncture damage?)
subatomic particles (projectile + radiation?)
light
focused light (laser)
plasma (heat?)
radioactive decay
* vacuum (includes cold damage, and perhaps radiation dmg)
* cold
* heat
- radiation
- poison
- tranq
+ acid
* pathogens
* internal bleeding