Workers of this World Unite...
- Thread starter kafka47
- Start date
A few systems IMTU are pretty functional communist states, where the labor unions really control the system. But, of course, they do angel for advantage over one another. Nothing like a socialist paradise, but then again - most of my systems - at least the high pop ones - aren't great examples of capitalist paradises either.
There's a few things happening here.
First, the Cold War had it's affect on people's minds. A lot of people simply can't imagine a Workers' State that doesn't degenerate.
Second, the Official TU is "plutocracy on steroids". The ability of a particular world to buck the system is limited, particularly if that world is just some random rock, rather than a optimally selected hi-tech, hi-pop world. (Hmm, that's a bit like what happened in the real world isn't it? Revolutions happened in dirt-poor or war-ravaged countries...) So the scope for workers' states to avoid degeneration is limited.
Having said that, in non-OTU settings, I have used reasonably functional workers' states. They are generally organised along the lines of the Paris Commune, or how the Soviets were _supposed_ to operate. Basically it's a huge federation of local communities, that becomes a confederation at interstellar distances. I don't pay too much attention to the economy, aside from noting the presence of highly advanced public services (health, transport and so on).
The PCs tend to have fairly standard backgrounds - there are other interstellar states out there, so there is a navy, army, (sometimes marines) and so on. There is interstellar trade, and this does involve some fairly small vessels that are effectively free traders of a sort. And of course, there is a Scout Service... which keeps an eye on what the neighbours are doing...
There are some constraints on the plots you can run - the true "merchant prince" campaign doesn't work too well - but generally you can run a pretty standard campaign, with a slightly different flavour.
Of course, the most obvious role for workers' state is as "evil empire". This can be a laugh when it turns out that they aren't so villainous after all. At this time, IMTU, it usually turns out that the Generic Space Nazis have been trying to incite a war between the Red Fed and the Yanks In Spa
First, the Cold War had it's affect on people's minds. A lot of people simply can't imagine a Workers' State that doesn't degenerate.
Second, the Official TU is "plutocracy on steroids". The ability of a particular world to buck the system is limited, particularly if that world is just some random rock, rather than a optimally selected hi-tech, hi-pop world. (Hmm, that's a bit like what happened in the real world isn't it? Revolutions happened in dirt-poor or war-ravaged countries...) So the scope for workers' states to avoid degeneration is limited.
Having said that, in non-OTU settings, I have used reasonably functional workers' states. They are generally organised along the lines of the Paris Commune, or how the Soviets were _supposed_ to operate. Basically it's a huge federation of local communities, that becomes a confederation at interstellar distances. I don't pay too much attention to the economy, aside from noting the presence of highly advanced public services (health, transport and so on).
The PCs tend to have fairly standard backgrounds - there are other interstellar states out there, so there is a navy, army, (sometimes marines) and so on. There is interstellar trade, and this does involve some fairly small vessels that are effectively free traders of a sort. And of course, there is a Scout Service... which keeps an eye on what the neighbours are doing...
There are some constraints on the plots you can run - the true "merchant prince" campaign doesn't work too well - but generally you can run a pretty standard campaign, with a slightly different flavour.
Of course, the most obvious role for workers' state is as "evil empire". This can be a laugh when it turns out that they aren't so villainous after all. At this time, IMTU, it usually turns out that the Generic Space Nazis have been trying to incite a war between the Red Fed and the Yanks In Spa
There's a few things happening here.
First, the Cold War had it's affect on people's minds. A lot of people simply can't imagine a Workers' State that doesn't degenerate.
Second, the Official TU is "plutocracy on steroids". The ability of a particular world to buck the system is limited, particularly if that world is just some random rock, rather than a optimally selected hi-tech, hi-pop world. (Hmm, that's a bit like what ha
First, the Cold War had it's affect on people's minds. A lot of people simply can't imagine a Workers' State that doesn't degenerate.
Second, the Official TU is "plutocracy on steroids". The ability of a particular world to buck the system is limited, particularly if that world is just some random rock, rather than a optimally selected hi-tech, hi-pop world. (Hmm, that's a bit like what ha
There's a few things happening here.
First, the Cold War had it's affect on people's minds. A lot of people simply can't imagine a Workers' State that doesn't degenerate.
Second, the Official TU is "plutocracy on steroids". The ability of a particular world to buck the system is limited, particularly if that world is just some random rock, rather than a optimally selected hi-tech, hi-pop world. (Hmm, that's a bit like what happened in the real world isn't it? Revolutions happened in dirt-poor or war-ravaged countries...) So the scope for workers' states to avoid degeneration is limited.
Having said that, in non-OTU settings, I have used reasonably functional workers' states. They are generally organised along the lines of the Paris Commune, or how the Soviets were _supposed_ to operate. Basically it's a huge federation of local communities, that becomes a confederation at interstellar distances. I don't pay too much attention to the economy, aside from noting the presence of highly advanced public services (health, transport and so on).
The PCs tend to have fairly standard backgrounds - there are other interstellar states out there, so there is a navy, army, (sometimes marines) and so on. There is interstellar trade, and this does involve some fairly small vessels that are effectively free traders of a sort. And of course, there is a Scout Service... which keeps an eye on what the neighbours are doing...
There are some constraints on the plots you can run - the true "merchant prince" campaign doesn't work too well - but generally you can run a pretty standard campaign, with a slightly different flavour.
Of course, the most obvious role for workers' state is as "evil empire". This can be a laugh when it turns out that they aren't so villainous after all. At this time, IMTU, it usually turns out that the Generic Space Nazis have been trying to incite a war between the Red Fed and the Yanks In Space.
Alan Bradley
First, the Cold War had it's affect on people's minds. A lot of people simply can't imagine a Workers' State that doesn't degenerate.
Second, the Official TU is "plutocracy on steroids". The ability of a particular world to buck the system is limited, particularly if that world is just some random rock, rather than a optimally selected hi-tech, hi-pop world. (Hmm, that's a bit like what happened in the real world isn't it? Revolutions happened in dirt-poor or war-ravaged countries...) So the scope for workers' states to avoid degeneration is limited.
Having said that, in non-OTU settings, I have used reasonably functional workers' states. They are generally organised along the lines of the Paris Commune, or how the Soviets were _supposed_ to operate. Basically it's a huge federation of local communities, that becomes a confederation at interstellar distances. I don't pay too much attention to the economy, aside from noting the presence of highly advanced public services (health, transport and so on).
The PCs tend to have fairly standard backgrounds - there are other interstellar states out there, so there is a navy, army, (sometimes marines) and so on. There is interstellar trade, and this does involve some fairly small vessels that are effectively free traders of a sort. And of course, there is a Scout Service... which keeps an eye on what the neighbours are doing...
There are some constraints on the plots you can run - the true "merchant prince" campaign doesn't work too well - but generally you can run a pretty standard campaign, with a slightly different flavour.
Of course, the most obvious role for workers' state is as "evil empire". This can be a laugh when it turns out that they aren't so villainous after all. At this time, IMTU, it usually turns out that the Generic Space Nazis have been trying to incite a war between the Red Fed and the Yanks In Space.
Alan Bradley
trader jim
SOC-14 1K
i usually dont let me real world politics get into my game, but i have to say this about last several posts - pure worthless drivel!!! having been born into the "cold war" having fought in a "not so cold war" having been shot at by the BAST.... i can and will say this till my dying day!!! ****** the******!!!!! *********em all!!!
it was true then it is true now - the only good commie is a dead commie!!!! none of thre crap should be used in the game. no one should make light of what they did and were!! no one should try to justify them, even in a game!! and the bast.....are still causing problems!!! they and their system are still the enemy and theyare still dangerous and MUST be taken seriously.
it was true then it is true now - the only good commie is a dead commie!!!! none of thre crap should be used in the game. no one should make light of what they did and were!! no one should try to justify them, even in a game!! and the bast.....are still causing problems!!! they and their system are still the enemy and theyare still dangerous and MUST be taken seriously.
Hogwash.I'm as anti-communist as just about anyone I know and I've got no problem having communist governments IMTU. Yes, it's a bad system - but so is a monarch, especially an absolutist one like the Third Imperium. I don't condone militant animal rights activists, but I still like reading about the K'Kree.
Judge your players - yeah, if you have an impressionable 10 year old, don't make light of communists - but if you've got mature players, I think they can see that we aren't emulating the Soviet Union.
trader jim
SOC-14 1K
rodina - i agree with YOU FULLY - BUT i have read the other persons text over and over and over again and i get the impression they are saying one thing and meaning another.i get the idea there is "something between the lines"!!!
trader jim
SOC-14 1K
rodina - HOGWASH? HOGWASH? in red??why it sounds like you could be a little stubbern too - ready to dig your heels in. in all honesty if you have been in my shoes and been where ive been you certinaly would understand where i was and am coming from. i wont retract any thing ive said and wont apoligize. some one said dont disscuss
politics, religion, or woman at the gameing table,
lets drop this!!!
politics, religion, or woman at the gameing table,
lets drop this!!!
trader jim
SOC-14 1K
once again it must be said everyone can voice an opinion here - but things sure can heat up fast, over one entry!!! WOW!!!
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
Of course it depends on your definitions of comunism too. or socialism.
The sort of people who angrily shout 'better dead than red' tend also to assume that 'if you're not with us you're against us'
There's more than one way to organise onself. Being a democracy doesn't automatically make one eager to place all one's needs on the free market.
Being concerned about the welfare of one's community doesn't automatically make one a pinko 'fellow traveller'. You CAN disagree with the actions of a particular regime without painting a ... an entire spectrum of social philosphy with the 'kill em all' brush.
Just in case anything in the above enflames anyone and to avoid flames --here--
papagolfwhiskey@shaw.ca
The sort of people who angrily shout 'better dead than red' tend also to assume that 'if you're not with us you're against us'
There's more than one way to organise onself. Being a democracy doesn't automatically make one eager to place all one's needs on the free market.
Being concerned about the welfare of one's community doesn't automatically make one a pinko 'fellow traveller'. You CAN disagree with the actions of a particular regime without painting a ... an entire spectrum of social philosphy with the 'kill em all' brush.
Just in case anything in the above enflames anyone and to avoid flames --here--
papagolfwhiskey@shaw.ca
Pagan priest
SOC-12
I think it might be worth while to point out the difference between the totalitarian regimes that call themselves communist (or used to, anyway) and the economic system of community ownership of all resources.
"Communism" as a self chosen label for totalitarian regimes is simply an excuse to grab the factories (or what ever) from their rightful capatalist owners. This allows the government to line its own pockets directly, instead of having to raise taxes.
As an actual economic model, communism can be called the ideal system: "From each acording to their ability, to each acording to their need." Now all you need are some ideal people to populate it and there you go!
"Communism" as a self chosen label for totalitarian regimes is simply an excuse to grab the factories (or what ever) from their rightful capatalist owners. This allows the government to line its own pockets directly, instead of having to raise taxes.
As an actual economic model, communism can be called the ideal system: "From each acording to their ability, to each acording to their need." Now all you need are some ideal people to populate it and there you go!
trader jim
SOC-14 1K
GGGGrrrrrrrrr snap, snap, teeth, teeth
Precisely. And that's a very good rock to throw at your players, because they tend not to expect it.
The models of socialism I use for this tend to be the more democratic ones - historically, the ones that were very quickly overthrown! - which lacked most of the vices of Stalinism.
The result is a society which is very far from being a utopia, but which is honest in its desire to improve the lot of its citizens, which is open, democratic, and free - and very, very strange.
And "very, very strange" is what Traveller is about. : )
Alan Bradley
PapaGolfWhiskey
SOC-13
I donno, Allan.
I grew up in a constitutional monarchy without a monarch to call it's own.
A system where your money (what you don get skinned for on April 30th) is yours to invest as you please but where some of that money that you handed over comes back as services offered equally to all citizens. A place that honours freedom but also pays lip service at least to the good of the oomunity. A free and democratic society with some sociallist leanings isn't strange. it's my home.
BTW, Pagan Priest, I would hardly call Communism, even the Marx & Engels theory-on-paper variety, ideal. It's badly flawed and comes with a lot of baggage. However, I'm not sure how the Lenninist/Stalinist (or Maoist for that matter,) worship of the state as being one and the same thing as 'the people' jibes with the idea that 'The state will wither away'
I can recognise that so called 'comunist states' are about as accurate in naming themselves so as they are when they adopt names that include 'Democratic' or ' people's republic' That doesn't mean I believe communism is a workable or even a desireable system. I LIKE my freedom.
I grew up in a constitutional monarchy without a monarch to call it's own.
A system where your money (what you don get skinned for on April 30th) is yours to invest as you please but where some of that money that you handed over comes back as services offered equally to all citizens. A place that honours freedom but also pays lip service at least to the good of the oomunity. A free and democratic society with some sociallist leanings isn't strange. it's my home.
BTW, Pagan Priest, I would hardly call Communism, even the Marx & Engels theory-on-paper variety, ideal. It's badly flawed and comes with a lot of baggage. However, I'm not sure how the Lenninist/Stalinist (or Maoist for that matter,) worship of the state as being one and the same thing as 'the people' jibes with the idea that 'The state will wither away'
I can recognise that so called 'comunist states' are about as accurate in naming themselves so as they are when they adopt names that include 'Democratic' or ' people's republic' That doesn't mean I believe communism is a workable or even a desireable system. I LIKE my freedom.
Have you ever experienced first hand the effects of a communist society on it's people?
I was in Berlin the week the wall fell. I crossed into East Berlin to see what was happening there. Never could two cities be more different in every way. Half of East Germany was in West Berlin. It was a huge happy colorful celebration. The warmth of emotion was overflowing. The people left in East Berlin were as unhappy a group as you could possible imagine. It was a grey frigid place. The workers paradise was not such a paradise after all.
What can you do when you see a small child who is trembling in fear of yourself, while you are eating lunch with your wife. An innocent act, no weapons, no threats, no violence, just a simple symbol of the USA in uniform. Why sould the child be so scared of a person? It makes a person think about what is going on, what the kid had been taught, and what you are doing about it.
This was a society where the children in school were taught to report on family members disloyal behavior. Taught that to think freely was wrong and traitorus. Taught that the leaders were always correct. There are many forms of child abuse. Filling a child with biased lies and responses of any kind for your own purposes is criminal.
The system did not take care of all the needs of it's people, but instead repressed them and made it's citizens believe it was disloyal to have needs the system could not fulfill. It was a system that deserved to end, for the good of it's own people.
I have used similar governments as the 'EVIL EMPIRE" for the PCs to get around, but have always toned down the reality I have experienced. The reality is not something to joke about.
I was in Berlin the week the wall fell. I crossed into East Berlin to see what was happening there. Never could two cities be more different in every way. Half of East Germany was in West Berlin. It was a huge happy colorful celebration. The warmth of emotion was overflowing. The people left in East Berlin were as unhappy a group as you could possible imagine. It was a grey frigid place. The workers paradise was not such a paradise after all.
What can you do when you see a small child who is trembling in fear of yourself, while you are eating lunch with your wife. An innocent act, no weapons, no threats, no violence, just a simple symbol of the USA in uniform. Why sould the child be so scared of a person? It makes a person think about what is going on, what the kid had been taught, and what you are doing about it.
This was a society where the children in school were taught to report on family members disloyal behavior. Taught that to think freely was wrong and traitorus. Taught that the leaders were always correct. There are many forms of child abuse. Filling a child with biased lies and responses of any kind for your own purposes is criminal.
The system did not take care of all the needs of it's people, but instead repressed them and made it's citizens believe it was disloyal to have needs the system could not fulfill. It was a system that deserved to end, for the good of it's own people.
I have used similar governments as the 'EVIL EMPIRE" for the PCs to get around, but have always toned down the reality I have experienced. The reality is not something to joke about.
trader jim
SOC-14 1K
THANK YOU VEGASCAT - this Traveller is Vindicated!!! How soon we forget, folks just dont understand unless they see "it" up close and personal, they sometime belive nice pretty written paragraphs about "it". i feel strongly about this.....i could go on.....i better shut up....
And of course none of this has anything whatsoever to do with what we are talking about...
We are talking about socialist democracies, not Stalinism.
The difference is like that between capitalist democracies and fascism, or military dictatorships.
Perhaps if you had visited Berlin under the Nazis, you might be able to make a realistic comparison.
Whatever. Braindeath is incurable.
Alan Bradley
We are talking about socialist democracies, not Stalinism.
The difference is like that between capitalist democracies and fascism, or military dictatorships.
Perhaps if you had visited Berlin under the Nazis, you might be able to make a realistic comparison.
Whatever. Braindeath is incurable.
Alan Bradley
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