Why not more Robots?

[WarriorKnight]

I've used robots in my games a long time.As crew & as menial labor.My players have cargo bots & engineer bots on every ship I've ran.Even companion bots(Both human & animal types).I've even got a PC bot I run & nobody have figured out he's not human(thought the Psion think its weird he can't read the guys mind,just assumes he' got a psi sheild on )
In the TNE books I've read Dellour was killed by a robot threshing machine. Ouch o:

 

[BlackBat242]

Automated rice-pickers can mutilate ears, too. :smirk:

 

[WarriorKnight]

Yes they can.

 

[Carlobrand]

I've used robots in my games a long time.As crew & as menial labor.My players have cargo bots & engineer bots on every ship I've ran.Even companion bots(Both human & animal types). ...

I remain stymied by price. The cheapest ones cost 3 or 4 times a worker's annual salary, and the really useful ones cost several times that much. Sure, you'll run into them on a Tukera liner, or unloading cargo at a starport, almost anywhere there's a company with deep pockets and an interest in an up-front investment that yields long-term savings in labor costs. As to whether or not you can afford them for your free trader ... for some odd reason, players seem to be far more preoccupied with scoring combat armor or a triple turret to replace the double than with buying a bot to play nurse for the medic or serve drinks to the passengers.

Labor is invisible to the average player. Unless you as a gamemaster gift them with bots or manufacture reasons for them to need or want one - like giving them some bonus to a skill roll while working in conjunction with a bot - the bots are going to be rather low on their priority list.

 

[BlackBat242]

I remain stymied by price. The cheapest ones cost 3 or 4 times a worker's annual salary, and the really useful ones cost several times that much. Sure, you'll run into them on a Tukera liner, or unloading cargo at a starport, almost anywhere there's a company with deep pockets and an interest in an up-front investment that yields long-term savings in labor costs. As to whether or not you can afford them for your free trader ... for some odd reason, players seem to be far more preoccupied with scoring combat armor or a triple turret to replace the double than with buying a bot to play nurse for the medic or serve drinks to the passengers.

Labor is invisible to the average player. Unless you as a gamemaster gift them with bots or manufacture reasons for them to need or want one - like giving them some bonus to a skill roll while working in conjunction with a bot - the bots are going to be rather low on their priority list.

Ask any employer, the real cost of a worker is not his salary, it is his health insurance, retirement pay, and especially the liability insurance for wherever he is working. The more dangerous the work, the higher the workplace medical expenses and the more costly the liability insurance.

And that's before you get a worker filing a lawsuit alleging negligence or misconduct by the company... even if the company wins they will spend the equivalent of several years salary for that worker on legal counsel. If they lose, they could go bankrupt.

Replace a living worker with a machine, and the long-term costs almost always go down. And unless you make a full AI that pulls a "Data" and gets itself declared a sentient being, it can't file a lawsuit.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

This may have been mentioned, but I'm a firm believer that a slave, in the short run, is less expensive than a robot/android, hence the allure of one, but, unlike a robot, will get more expensive as time goes on.

I dunno about that lower initial cost. The last time you could legally buy a slave in this country (for example) the purchase price was the rough equivalent of a luxury car in modern terms. And you also need to have the infrastructure to support a living, breathing sentient -- food, shelter, basic health care -- before they move in; you can't just store them in the closet when you're not using them, after all.

And then there's the whole 'free will' issue to deal with to, with the accompanying security costs and concerns riding along with that...

(sidebar; several roboticists have told me that "Android" is a polite term for "Robot", which is a Romanian word meaning forced labor)...

Czech, actually. It was coined by an old Czech play ('R.U.R.'), although the 'robots' in that production were not exactly mechanical -- more like mass-produced Frankenstein's monsters, as I recall.

Slaves, in my opinion, are essentially the robots for poor worlds. Ones that need labor, can afford food, but little else.

But not Imperial worlds, at least in the OTU, right? I thought 'no slaves' was one of the few dirtside rules the Imperium laid down for it's member worlds?

 

[atpollard]

But not Imperial worlds, at least in the OTU, right? I thought 'no slaves' was one of the few dirtside rules the Imperium laid down for it's member worlds?

Correct.

 

[McPerth]

But not Imperial worlds, at least in the OTU, right? I thought 'no slaves' was one of the few dirtside rules the Imperium laid down for it's member worlds?

Canon (JTAS 14, page 20) specifies as one of the High Crimes (so being prosecuted by Imperial autorities across the whole Imperium) (...) the capture, transporation and possession of slaves (...), so you're right in this.

 

[BwapTED]

I think the disconnect/failure point between ...

1. economics suggesting that all ships should have a captain plus an all robot crew.
2. OTU rules, adventures, deckplans and color texts say 'it ain't so'.

... goes back to the difference between AI (as described in the robot books) and Self-aware robots (TL 17 in CT). Just because a robot is programmed to operate a ship like a pilot does not mean that it can actually replace a human pilot on the ship ... that would require the independent function that is reserved for TL 17 robots.

The automated factories that I have visited, still employ quality control people to examine the product coming out of the machines because the machinery is often perfectly willing to continue as normal if something unexpected happens. Newer machines can sense when something has gone wrong, but even they seem to generally default to 'stop the presses and call for a technician'.

Has anyone else encountered a Garmin or Magellan GPS that gives less than perfect advice? ... "Exit now would be a lot easier if this road had an exit here". o:

So I could easily imagine a Robot Pilot that could handle the routine 'driving', like an aircraft on auto-pilot, or even be programmed for routine landings and takeoff ... but let the ship exit jump in an uncharted asteroid field and damage one of the stabilizers and the AI (non-Sophont) robot pilot will be perfectly willing to follow procedures exactly as programmed, right up to the point where the superfreighter collides with the highport.

Keeping a human pilot in the loop means that the robot pilot who exits jump in an uncharted asteroid field and damages one of the stabilizers, can detect that something has gone wrong and summon a sophont to make the decisions above its AI grade.

In terms of game mechanics, I respectfully suggest that 'minimum crew' (from Mongoose Traveller) must be sophonts, both by regulation and practical necessity, since a smaller sophont crew is potentially unable to deal with an emergency. The 'average' and 'full' crew numbers can certainly be filled out with AI robots capable of performing routine tasks and normal operations.

Thus in normal operating mode, the partially robotic crew is more cost efficient, but when a crisis strikes, the robots are of limited usefulness and the ship functions at one level lower ... a 'full' crew becomes 'average', an 'average' crew becomes 'minimal', and a 'minimal' partial-robotic crew may be insufficient to cope with the crisis (and thus illegal for any ship that carries mail or passengers).

Just some thoughts from IMTU.
YMMV

D you recall the gunner interact program in LBB 2? It lets the human gunner add his skill level as a DM on a given turret.
I'm going to allow similar programs for pilot, navigation, etc. IMTU.

Man with training+ machine with the right programs outclasses machine alone.

That, and IMTU, jump space navigation requires a human mind or the equivalent. Expert systems help by doing a lot of math, much like real computers. But they cannot replace human subjectivity, imagination, and intuition-- all of which are necessary to successfully navigate a craft through jumpspace.

So, all starships have at least one or two humans on the crew.

Non-starships, like system patrol craft, with human crews and the right software enjoy certain combat advantages over automated drones, although the drones get to save tonnage that would otherwise be required for life-support. Drones are more vulnerable to hacking. Nobody on hand to do a manual override...


Robots for subordinate and menial positions, seem like a great fit.

I do expect that the factors outlined above will obviate the need for things like fifty man crews for very large (under LBB2 rules) craft. That's my intent. Small crew (of humans), handling a big ship.
Machines multiply human capabilities, but don't erase humans from the crew roster.

YMMV

 

[salochin999]

Question for discussion:

Why not more Robots?

This is one of the things I think you can use the world stats to decide.

For example you might have as one rule of thumb that a hipop hitech world would either
1) have decided against robots for social reasons
or
2) have lots of robots and vast welfare slums.

The choice of which could be decided by govt. type and/or law level.

Another rule of thumb might be a lopop, hitech world would likely have masses of robots possibly including cops, military etc.

Other worlds with a lot of robots might be those with lopop, extreme environment and industrial stats.

Lopop, mid tech worlds might have a steam punk feel where they use bits of imported hitech combined with low tech e.g. super heavy land tanks like land battleships with the weight supported by grav plates and wind / propellers for propulsion.

 

[Ulsyus]

Lopop, mid tech worlds might have a steam punk feel where they use bits of imported hitech combined with low tech e.g. super heavy land tanks like land battleships with the weight supported by grav plates and wind / propellers for propulsion.

...and a Babage-style think-machine helping to run it for the undereducated crew?

 

[Timerover51]

Lopop, mid tech worlds might have a steam punk feel where they use bits of imported hitech combined with low tech e.g. super heavy land tanks like land battleships with the weight supported by grav plates and wind / propellers for propulsion.

...and a Babage-style think-machine helping to run it for the undereducated crew?

Sort of like Space: 1889 meets Traveller.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Sort of like Space: 1889 meets Traveller.

where can I sign up?

this sort of mash up was what got me into traveller in the first place.

 

[Timerover51]

where can I sign up?

this sort of mash up was what got me into traveller in the first place.

I keep thinking about it, but Frank has been very non-committal about any licenses. The systems would not be that hard to mesh. I am working on a Space: 1889 scenario to try out at Little Wars in April if I can get it finished in time. There will not be any Traveller in that one.

You can also get some ideas from Harry Harrison's The Ethical Engineer at Project Gutenberg, except that his Death World 2 is a bit more backward than Space: 1889.

As for another reason for not a lot of robots, take a look at Murray Leinster's Exploration Team. You can find it online. Love those Kodiak Bears. Much better than mere robots.

Note to Xerxes: Just noticed that you are a Patrick O'brian fan. Have you ever read any of the Horatio Hornblower series by C.S. Forester?

 

[salochin999]

...and a Babage-style think-machine helping to run it for the undereducated crew?

Yes exactly.

Sort of like Space: 1889 meets Traveller.

Yes, except I want the Space: 1889 type planets inside the OTU, systems where they know what tech exists but can't build it on-planet and don't have much to trade so they mash up hybrid equipment with some hitech parts and some home produced parts - like a starship with wrecked engines converted into a paddle steamer.

#

The aim is to have a list of planet types for different world stats so I can make up something about a system just by looking at the stats.

In this case maybe a world with stats something like: star port C or D, pop 6-8, TL 6- could be a bit steampunk / diesel punk ish.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Dogbots;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um-Ohl-NTNc&list=PL0tDb4jw6kPwbnFvsB9QZSMQPN-9IvWJP

 

[Timerover51]

Yes exactly.



Yes, except I want the Space: 1889 type planets inside the OTU, systems where they know what tech exists but can't build it on-planet and don't have much to trade so they mash up hybrid equipment with some hitech parts and some home produced parts - like a starship with wrecked engines converted into a paddle steamer.

#

The aim is to have a list of planet types for different world stats so I can make up something about a system just by looking at the stats.

In this case maybe a world with stats something like: star port C or D, pop 6-8, TL 6- could be a bit steampunk / diesel punk ish.

Hmm, interesting idea. Star port D would work better, population 6 or less, as for Tech Levels much over 4 you need more people for production of all of the needed materials. Let me give it some though, as I now have a Traveller license. Just need to be careful of Space: 1889 copyrights.

 

[salochin999]

Hmm, interesting idea. Star port D would work better, population 6 or less, as for Tech Levels much over 4 you need more people for production of all of the needed materials. Let me give it some though, as I now have a Traveller license. Just need to be careful of Space: 1889 copyrights.

Yes, D probably better.

I'm thinking things like copper or bronze flying ships with imported grav plates to provide the lift and steam powered propellers for thrust, housing a 100 or so people each from clans of nomadic dinosaur herders with a central city somewhere that produces the copper/bronze and coal.

The grav part would be like a black box to them - fill it with water and pull a lever type of thing - and maybe manufactured on a higher tech planet from cheap parts out of scrapyard air/rafts and exported by free traders to the backwater planets which can't afford to import actual full price air/rafts.

 

[salochin999]

Another possibility is exo-skeletons taking some of the functions robots might otherwise have been designed for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_pdZ1LW5iw

 

[kilemall]

I had a recurring NPC called "Doc" Wrencher I used in several campaigns and adventures. He was an ex-IISS medical doctor with a modified detached duty Suleiman and an all robot crew.

Doc flew around District 268 mostly, visiting backwater systems and the backwater part of other systems, and providing free medical care. He had a robot pilot, two medic 'bots, and a single overworked engineering 'bot. Doc's scout/courier only had one real stateroom, his, with the rest given over to a combined preop-surgical-recovery suite. Instead of a standard air/raft, he had a pressure-tight gee carrier with a medical low berth.

Much like JTAS' Finger, Doc Wrencher had lots of friends across all social strata. Mess with Doc and you've just made a sector's worth or more of enemies.

I never detailed Doc's 'bots because I didn't have LBB:8 when I came up with Doc. I just winged it instead. Doc's 'bots did what I needed them to do and that's all that counted.

Impressive stuff.

On a side note I always felt that a potential Doctor benefit roll from the CotI book should have been TAS membership, as medical help to people in need would be VERY useful to TAS' mission as a whole and would be rewarded.