M
Malenfant
Guest
Good luck finding people who would part with that much money. I don't think it's remotely realistic to suggest that fans pay for adverts. Hell, personally I think it's rather pie in the sky to be talking about Traveller TV ads or movies or TV shows in the first place. Particularly when there's the whole unconquered (and cheaper) medium of advertising in books and other such written word media yet to explore.
I could however more realistically imagine watching an interview on TV about roleplaying on some program on an information channel, with Hunter explaining and showing off Traveller.
I could however more realistically imagine watching an interview on TV about roleplaying on some program on an information channel, with Hunter explaining and showing off Traveller.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
RPG related products test miserably in a visual medium like television, just by its very nature. There is no way you can get around that ultimately, the Game IS geeks around a table, no amount of flash short of making it an x-box game will change that. America at least labors under the stigma of RPGs. People either don't get it, ridicule it (Reno: 911), or are scared crapless of it. (Or so I hear, I tend to stay away from non-gamers and other "two-dimensionals"(Sarcasm, sort of...))
TSR (D&D, Star Frontiers, and Gamma World) used to run ads in Marvel Comics, in addition to (duh!) Dragon Magazine... I think they ran in Asimov's Sci Fi in 80s. Early on they had a D&D ad that was sort of a comic strip, and a very crudely drawn one at that...
That venue seems more logical... magazines and other periodicals are the way to go. Anywhere there is reading. It is too bad that Rona Jaffe and others generated such a row about RPGs. It's Ironic that a hobby that encourages reading and social interaction languishes in relative shadow.
Also, The Sci Fi Channel is NOT (at least not now)run by Sci Fi fans. It is run by business/marketing people that are part of USA Networks. They are interested in profit. In order to find out how I know, I will require a case of your finest Earth Beer...
TSR (D&D, Star Frontiers, and Gamma World) used to run ads in Marvel Comics, in addition to (duh!) Dragon Magazine... I think they ran in Asimov's Sci Fi in 80s. Early on they had a D&D ad that was sort of a comic strip, and a very crudely drawn one at that...
That venue seems more logical... magazines and other periodicals are the way to go. Anywhere there is reading. It is too bad that Rona Jaffe and others generated such a row about RPGs. It's Ironic that a hobby that encourages reading and social interaction languishes in relative shadow.
Also, The Sci Fi Channel is NOT (at least not now)run by Sci Fi fans. It is run by business/marketing people that are part of USA Networks. They are interested in profit. In order to find out how I know, I will require a case of your finest Earth Beer...
M
Malenfant
Guest
Oh yeah, I remember the ads in the comics I used to read... I wonder if there are any Travelleresque comics around nowadays?
(I found Marvel's ad rates, but I have no clue whatsoever as to what the numbers mean... though I'm guessing that a Travellerish comic would be published by someone like Vertigo or some other smaller publisher)
(I found Marvel's ad rates, but I have no clue whatsoever as to what the numbers mean... though I'm guessing that a Travellerish comic would be published by someone like Vertigo or some other smaller publisher)
M
Malenfant
Guest
Though thinking about it, a Traveller comic miniseries would be rather cool. It might work rather well in that medium, actually... but that's probably being pie in the sky again - you need artists, writers, publishers etc, unless QLI want to get into the comicwriting biz 
.
.
Well, the basic card is looking to be for (I think) full page add, and it looks to be showing 1, 4, 8, and 12 month block, at cost per month. the CPM figures are (if it is similar to other rate cards, cost per magazine, IE, per unit printed. IE, a way of figuring out how many copies to expect.
The Jr and Sr lines are for target audience.
The Jr and Sr lines are for target audience.
M
Malenfant
Guest
What, so to run an ad in a Marvel comic for 1 month costs between $30k and $60k?! Ouch.
Shadowdancer
SOC-14 1K
Yes. In the early '80s, TSR ran some ads on late night television. I only saw them on "Saturday Night Live," but I've talked to other people who remember seeing them on others shows. I think the first part of the ads were animated, dissolving into a DM behind a screen and other people sitting around a table. The tag line was "Imagine the possibilities," or something like that.
Surely, if we pool our talents together we could come up with a solution.
For example, why not we have a web comic (written by the artist or Hunter or MJD or Marc - so as attract the attention of the larger gamer community).
The intital four week would run free of charge with something like 3 large panels with artwork donated by someone like one of our esteemed artists who do the regular artwork for Traveller products. Then have an additional 3 panels updated on a weekly basis, at cost, say US$1.00 (or $.75 for Moot members) with the paypal account directly linked to the artists' own account. This way the artist directly benefits from visitation to the site. The only thing is that it would take some altruism of the artist and writer to last a month without potentially being paid.
At the end of the serial or after 6 months or so we could perhaps then produce a printed copy of have the comic appear in some deadtree or combined PDF version aviable for sale...
But, if the art and the story was attractive enough chances are that it would lure in the larger SF community.
For example, why not we have a web comic (written by the artist or Hunter or MJD or Marc - so as attract the attention of the larger gamer community).
The intital four week would run free of charge with something like 3 large panels with artwork donated by someone like one of our esteemed artists who do the regular artwork for Traveller products. Then have an additional 3 panels updated on a weekly basis, at cost, say US$1.00 (or $.75 for Moot members) with the paypal account directly linked to the artists' own account. This way the artist directly benefits from visitation to the site. The only thing is that it would take some altruism of the artist and writer to last a month without potentially being paid.
At the end of the serial or after 6 months or so we could perhaps then produce a printed copy of have the comic appear in some deadtree or combined PDF version aviable for sale...
But, if the art and the story was attractive enough chances are that it would lure in the larger SF community.
Not A comic, the entire line of comics: Either juveniles or adults, or both.
And Kafka, I agree that that has merit.
I'd suggest the guy who does Freefall; he's a good head for tech without losing that frontier feel traveller has. And we know he can draw a Vargr.
And Kafka, I agree that that has merit.
I'd suggest the guy who does Freefall; he's a good head for tech without losing that frontier feel traveller has. And we know he can draw a Vargr.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Well, ideally I'd like to see Warren Ellis or JMS do a four issue full colour miniseries
.
Lord Iron Wolf
SOC-12
Hi Malefont,
I just spent the last day or two looking over the boards both COTI and RPGnet and trying to boil down the answers to something usable for getting new players. I still don't know it I've got it right, but here goes.
Many new players are awed by the scope of the Imperium and the people who know it well.
Traveller's got a reputation, for good or bad it's got one and that is hard to overcome.
Much of the Traveller material is unaccessable: Out of Print, too high a price on ebay, no one will sell what they have, ect.
Some of the older players aren't people you want to spend time with--unpleasant and pessimistic.
"Traveller is my father's game, there is nothing I can do to make it mine."
The knowledge the older players have of the game and/or universe can be intimidating to new players.
It's hard to find people who want to play.
People have got the idea that Traveller is a generic system. It is a flexible system that can accomodate many ideas. There is a major difference between flexible and generic.
Now for a few suggestions to bring Traveller to a new generation of gamers.
-Support the system. Two books at my store isn't enough to call something a viable game system. Indie games can do just as well. There is a D&D/3E section, WOD section, GURPS section, D20 section, Palladium section; where the *@# is the Traveller section? It is coming across as an indie or dead game.
-Some section in book on how to referee the game. We can't get more players without good to excellent referees to run the games. And a game has to be played to be living game not a dead one.
-Consistancy in art style. The T20 book is computer generated and the Gateway sector is hand drawn pen and ink that has been computer colored. Both of them resemble a steaming pile of technicolor vomit. A good artist uses restraint. Part of the reason they are getting paid is they should have the knowledge of what to leave out to get maximum impact from the front cover.
-Good interior art and a ratio like GURPS Traveller. That made the universe come alive.
-GDW invented the 2/3rds, 1/3rd page format. SJ Games uses it to their advantage to put in mini viginettes to give the game flavor (it also increases page count.)
-Some form of reward system for keeping a character around/alive for a while. Otherwise Traveller is a game of disposable character where a freshly rolled one is as desirable as one you've been playing five years.
My suggestion is not experience levels or increased stats. Rather I would postulate something like reputation and influence. These while not increasing skills would come in very handy and could work well with rewards and medals from advanced chargen systems.
-Get the idea across the Imperium is far away backdrop not a controlling force. It is very powerful when it decides to move but it is slow from both jump limitations and bureaucracy and it is spread very thin, almost to the breaking point.
-How about a presense, some effective advertising. TV and radio are expensive jokes along with anything that is a local advertisement-gamers are spread too thin. Speciality magazines and cons are the way to go. My vote would be for a spot in Kenzer Companies' "Knights of the Dinner Table" magazine. It is often touted as how many inactive gamers have became active again.
For effective advertizing, every advantage must be pushed and disadvantages must be minimized or turned around to advantages.
Examples would include:
"It's an ancient game."
Traveller did things right and the proof is, it is still played and loved by the people who adventure in it.
"There isn't much in Traveller for a Power Gamer."
It's not for munchkins or kids who want to run around in a blue suit with a red "S" on the chest. I like to play with more grown-up players.
"The system just seems weird to me."
It's not D&D based. Instead of starting as a monster snack you are a fully competent adult with plenty of world experience and as deadly as anyone.
Some advertizing blurbs or slug lines:
*Dragons are Merciful--Compared to Hard Vaccumn!
*Traveller: A Toolkit for Trouble.
*Come out of your hole and join us in the Stars.
That's all I can squeeze out of my head for now. I have more ideas but I wonder if I'm coming across clearly or just incoherant ramblings.
Lord Iron Wolf
I just spent the last day or two looking over the boards both COTI and RPGnet and trying to boil down the answers to something usable for getting new players. I still don't know it I've got it right, but here goes.
Many new players are awed by the scope of the Imperium and the people who know it well.
Traveller's got a reputation, for good or bad it's got one and that is hard to overcome.
Much of the Traveller material is unaccessable: Out of Print, too high a price on ebay, no one will sell what they have, ect.
Some of the older players aren't people you want to spend time with--unpleasant and pessimistic.
"Traveller is my father's game, there is nothing I can do to make it mine."
The knowledge the older players have of the game and/or universe can be intimidating to new players.
It's hard to find people who want to play.
People have got the idea that Traveller is a generic system. It is a flexible system that can accomodate many ideas. There is a major difference between flexible and generic.
Now for a few suggestions to bring Traveller to a new generation of gamers.
-Support the system. Two books at my store isn't enough to call something a viable game system. Indie games can do just as well. There is a D&D/3E section, WOD section, GURPS section, D20 section, Palladium section; where the *@# is the Traveller section? It is coming across as an indie or dead game.
-Some section in book on how to referee the game. We can't get more players without good to excellent referees to run the games. And a game has to be played to be living game not a dead one.
-Consistancy in art style. The T20 book is computer generated and the Gateway sector is hand drawn pen and ink that has been computer colored. Both of them resemble a steaming pile of technicolor vomit. A good artist uses restraint. Part of the reason they are getting paid is they should have the knowledge of what to leave out to get maximum impact from the front cover.
-Good interior art and a ratio like GURPS Traveller. That made the universe come alive.
-GDW invented the 2/3rds, 1/3rd page format. SJ Games uses it to their advantage to put in mini viginettes to give the game flavor (it also increases page count.)
-Some form of reward system for keeping a character around/alive for a while. Otherwise Traveller is a game of disposable character where a freshly rolled one is as desirable as one you've been playing five years.
My suggestion is not experience levels or increased stats. Rather I would postulate something like reputation and influence. These while not increasing skills would come in very handy and could work well with rewards and medals from advanced chargen systems.
-Get the idea across the Imperium is far away backdrop not a controlling force. It is very powerful when it decides to move but it is slow from both jump limitations and bureaucracy and it is spread very thin, almost to the breaking point.
-How about a presense, some effective advertising. TV and radio are expensive jokes along with anything that is a local advertisement-gamers are spread too thin. Speciality magazines and cons are the way to go. My vote would be for a spot in Kenzer Companies' "Knights of the Dinner Table" magazine. It is often touted as how many inactive gamers have became active again.
For effective advertizing, every advantage must be pushed and disadvantages must be minimized or turned around to advantages.
Examples would include:
"It's an ancient game."
Traveller did things right and the proof is, it is still played and loved by the people who adventure in it.
"There isn't much in Traveller for a Power Gamer."
It's not for munchkins or kids who want to run around in a blue suit with a red "S" on the chest. I like to play with more grown-up players.
"The system just seems weird to me."
It's not D&D based. Instead of starting as a monster snack you are a fully competent adult with plenty of world experience and as deadly as anyone.
Some advertizing blurbs or slug lines:
*Dragons are Merciful--Compared to Hard Vaccumn!
*Traveller: A Toolkit for Trouble.
*Come out of your hole and join us in the Stars.
That's all I can squeeze out of my head for now. I have more ideas but I wonder if I'm coming across clearly or just incoherant ramblings.
Lord Iron Wolf
Shadowdancer
SOC-14 1K
Lord Iron Wolf, you are coming through loud and clear.
Good summations, and some good suggestions.
^ Well put Lord Wolf, my thoughts exactly.
Traveller doesn't have the advantages that D&D has when it comes to exposure and easy access. With a publicity machine and indoctrination program like D&D's, its hard not to be drawn into the fantasy genre. Besides best selling novels, free boosts from every fantasy movie, cartoons, free publicity from the Satan worship controversy, D&D is spotlighted at nearly every Con.
Traveller has been lost in the jungle of all the Sci Fi genre games, out advertised and supplimented by others, particularly Star Wars RPG. Everyone wants to be a Jedi Knight or hero of the Rebellion! The question is how to distinguish Traveller from the crowd again.
I think the greatest advantage Traveller has is that, like the original D&D, Trav isn't tied to a specific universe or setting. Any GM can create his own universe with little work and all you need is the basic rules. This is a tremendous draw for new GM's, especially those on a budget or have limited access to a good game store.
One product I think would promote Trav well and build the community would be a (free?) Trav product devoted to helping the GM develop their own universe, patrons, adventures, etc. A list of pointers and examples from experienced GM's describing how to create a real environment, what details are critical to the game's continuity, and how to design fun adventures. Gurps Space did this well, perhaps too well for Traveller.
Traveller doesn't have the advantages that D&D has when it comes to exposure and easy access. With a publicity machine and indoctrination program like D&D's, its hard not to be drawn into the fantasy genre. Besides best selling novels, free boosts from every fantasy movie, cartoons, free publicity from the Satan worship controversy, D&D is spotlighted at nearly every Con.
Traveller has been lost in the jungle of all the Sci Fi genre games, out advertised and supplimented by others, particularly Star Wars RPG. Everyone wants to be a Jedi Knight or hero of the Rebellion! The question is how to distinguish Traveller from the crowd again.
I think the greatest advantage Traveller has is that, like the original D&D, Trav isn't tied to a specific universe or setting. Any GM can create his own universe with little work and all you need is the basic rules. This is a tremendous draw for new GM's, especially those on a budget or have limited access to a good game store.
One product I think would promote Trav well and build the community would be a (free?) Trav product devoted to helping the GM develop their own universe, patrons, adventures, etc. A list of pointers and examples from experienced GM's describing how to create a real environment, what details are critical to the game's continuity, and how to design fun adventures. Gurps Space did this well, perhaps too well for Traveller.
Why not simply include a section in whatever the final version of the core book is that resembles how D&D gives advice to DMs on how to run adventures and campaigns? That was always my biggest complaint with Traveller, was that the adventures and supplements read great but left me with no idea at all how to run a Traveller adventure. Even bad advice would be better than non-existant, as at least with bad advice, you have a platform from which to improve.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Well, that's the point isn't it. There are better, more purpose-built generic scifi games out there now - GURPS Space, Star HERO, and D20 Future.
Can Traveller add much to these? Is there even a market for another generic scifi game?
Shadowdancer
SOC-14 1K
This is already in the T20 Book. And in the Gateway Domain book.
