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Why don't new people play Traveller?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Malenfant
  • Start date Start date
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />how 'bout a traveller starter kit? remember d&d's keep on the borderlands? a basic adventure or two, with several subsequent related adventures leading off from it.
Any epic could be used as a starter adventure (although epic 1 would be the best).

The "intro to T20 ruleset" would be T20 Lite, although the best is the hardback T20 rulebook of course.
</font>[/QUOTE]if the main components already exist then they could all be packed together, extra beginner material added in, the edges ironed out, and the whole put out as "the traveller starter kit".

perhaps with a more catchy name.
 
How about licensing alternative Traveller Universes?

Traveller was (and still is to a large extent) a generic sci-fi rpg system. The Universe that it's set in has grown gradually over the decades but it wasn't originally intended to have a fixed setting.

Why couldn't there be D&D style alternative settings? Use the basic Traveller rules as the core and then you can have all manner of settings to suit everyone. From alien-less near future exploration of the solar system and stellar neighborhood to High-powered interstellar conflicts with a variety of kewl alien races, kewl cyber and psychic superpowers and Mecha!

Something to interest the die-hard realists and something for the Matrix generation too - and all those in between.

Crow
 
My personal view is that certain settings in variant history of the OTU are fun to run in... Like the Post-Hard-Times 3rd Imperium.

But all in all, if one is looking at a cogent variant TU, something smaller needs to be a consideration.

My comments on "Divorcing" from prior canon are not a "Dump it all and restart", but for, say T5, make it clear that anything not in the T5 line is not a valid argument for T5. In short, T5 gets a self-consistant canon, with only things being changed when there is conflict, and being able to "Retrofit" some changes to the OTU...
 
Originally posted by Michael Taylor:
Quote: "how 'bout a traveller starter kit? remember d&d's keep on the borderlands? a basic adventure or two, with several subsequent related adventures leading off from it."

Any epic could be used as a starter adventure (although epic 1 would be the best).
Not without a lot of work. Epics leave a lot for the referee to do, and assume a fair degree of knowledge about the Traveller setting for filling in the gaps,

If you're looking to attract new gamers, especially kids, I suggest you need to have a lot of support material. Maps, counters, a setting they can explore without being railroaded...

The best intro adventure? Shadows. Everything you need is right there to play, immediately. A very limited setting, but a complete one.

As an example of a setting, I'd put forward Sword Worlds. Every world has a map, the history is worked out (admittedly not necessary to include in an intro set, but necessary for the authors to know to keep everything consistent), every world is described, as are the relationships between the worlds, how to play the characters is discussed, and so forth.
 
As an addendum to my post above - I think the 'Traveller is broken la la la' stuff contains many useful and pertinent discussions!
 
Originally posted by hunter:
... We are looking seriously at reintroducing a slightly revised version of CT as a lighter rules system to complement T20. We are already dual-stating many products, it would take much to make them all this way.
Uh, if you did that, I would buy it. Even if it sucked (which I highly doubt it would), I would still buy it just because you guys made the effort.

That said, please recreate The Traveller Book. But do it right, using current RPG sensibilities. TTB was so infuriatingly close to being (presentation-wise) what I have seen so many ask for, that it would be wonderful if it was done right.

(By "done right" I mean: Update the rules like you have mentioned. Include a subsector's worth of information, but use more than just one sentence library data. Include a scenario or two, but make them better than the two generic ones in TTB. Include gaming advice for the beginner. Include scenario seeds (patron encounters) that don't assume the characters are criminals.)

Please. Please. Please. Please. Please.
 
Originally posted by hunter:
Let me make this clear now, we will do other settings, but we will not 'reboot' the OTU.
Then, please, please, please make an "OTU Sourcebook". I have detailed what level it needs to be written at earlier, but such a high-level book is desperately needed. I think you called it "The Rise and Fall of the Imperium" earlier.

With such a disjoined and haphazard covering of the OTU up until now, the need for a consistent overview of the whole thing is a definite must.
 
Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Robert Prior:
And while I can see that you are wedded to the D20 system <snip>
Here you'd be wrong. We are looking seriously at reintroducing a slightly revised version of CT as a lighter rules system to complement T20. We are already dual-stating many products, it would take much to make them all this way.
</font>[/QUOTE]:confused:

I am utterly baffled by this. What on earth would be the point?! Traveller doesn't need yet another version of CT to play it with. Plus it sounds rather odd to have a "lite" version of the game that actually uses a different system than the corebook. For whose benefit would this be? This seems like a massive step backwards to me.

Why not do something like provide d20 Modern stats, perhaps instead of the CT stats? The DP9 books use those as the OGL stat blocks for characters and vehicles, and that means that anyone with D20M (and now D20F) can pick it up and start playing. That way you can bring new people into the game.
 
Really, looking over the rpgnet thread (which I hope Hunter is reading and absorbing, because there are a lot of interesting responses there), it seems there are several issues:

1) The sheer size of the OTU. It's too vaguely defined, and the PCs are too small by comparison. I don't think an OTU sourcebook would help anyone much - it'd still be way too vague, unless it was about 1000 pages in size....

2) The "workaday" thing. People go through their everyday lives er, everyday. They don't want to play in an RPG where they have to figure out mortgages and taxes and balance the books and do things like that - they have enough of that in the RW. Nowadays, people want to play more heroic characters who can make a difference.

3) "Nobody plays it where I am" - that probably boils down to distribution and advertising issues.


Now, it seems to me that QLI has got the perfect vehicle in the works to address these problems - TNE:1248. That presents a Traveller universe that is, for all intents and purposes much smaller than the OTU - plus it's also new to pretty much everyone and therefore something to get excited about. It presents a lot of unknown space to explore. The history is more compressed and manageable (since really, pre-collapse is kinda irrelevant now). There are lots of current threats. While the standard Traveller options are there if you want to play in the "safe" areas, PCs can be more 'heroic' and can make a hell of a difference on the frontiers and in the wilds.

I think QLI should aggressively market the hell out of TNE:1248 when it comes out - pimp it as "not your father's Traveller", as a whole new setting. Make sure people hear about it, and about how it's different from the old "bland" Traveller. Pique people's interests. Add compatibility with compatible with d20Modern/Future to bring even more folks in (that seems to be working for DP9, as far as I've heard).

I think TNE:1248 can address a lot of the problems that people outside of the game have with Traveller (to be honest, I think their opinion is more important than those of us already "inside" Traveller) - if it's marketed right. If it just comes out with little fanfare, then nobody will notice and nobody will care, and an opportunity will have been missed. And as long as the old guard are kept happy with the Gateway era, hopefully they won't maul QLI for pushing it like they did GDW when TNE first came out.
 
I don't know about Hunter (but expect he's seen it) but I have some opinions on a couple of the points raised...

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Really, looking over the rpgnet thread (which I hope Hunter is reading and absorbing, because there are a lot of interesting responses there), it seems there are several issues:

1) The sheer size of the OTU. It's too vaguely defined, and the PCs are too small by comparison. I don't think an OTU sourcebook would help anyone much - it'd still be way too vague, unless it was about 1000 pages in size....
I never found the size of OTU to be a problem, just the size of the ships after HG. With the PC's still limping around in 100T and 200T ships with J2 and M2 when they start seeing 10KT and bigger ships with J4 and M6 it makes them feel mighty small. And as has been brought up, why are they in such insignificant ships if all these behemoths are everywhere, what's the point? Who would ship their precious cargo a measley J2 or J1 on some bucket of bolts when for the same cost they can ship it cheaper on a J4 super-frieghter that no pirate would have a chance against.


Originally posted by Malenfant:
2) The "workaday" thing. People go through their everyday lives er, everyday. They don't want to play in an RPG where they have to figure out mortgages and taxes and balance the books and do things like that - they have enough of that in the RW. Nowadays, people want to play more heroic characters who can make a difference.
Yep, heard this one so often too, but I've never had a multi-million mortgage to worry about on a spacecraft capable of interstellar trips in a week. And I sure don't make my RL payments by trading in a different solar system every other week with the occasional adventure involving firearms, aliens, space battles and such. I've never understood this argument. You might as well tell me no one would play D&D because you have to start as an inexperienced nobody and work everyday to get better at your career. I know we do that in RL every day and none of us are kids anymore, we've all paid our dues and earned our experience.
 
I never found the size of OTU to be a problem, just the size of the ships after HG.
While that may be a valid point about the ship sizes, I think it's something that can be glossed over in most peoples minds. Like piracy. Saying "piracy exists because space is big and people can get away with it by hiding in secret bases on rocks in the middle of nowhere" would satisfy most people. "Small ships exist because the big ships can't carry everything, or they only travel on the major routes and leave the other worlds for the small fry" would probably satisfy most people too.

It's when people start trying to figure out the taxes to fund all the navies and counter-piracy efforts that blows my mind. Hell, that sort of thing puts me off Traveller! I guess it's not much different from seeing people like me going on about realistic worldbuilding though.


Thing is, either way there's no reason for new people to be scared off by that. That sort of discussion is very much of specific, limited interest, and it shouldn't get in the way of people enjoying the game - they can completely ignore it in their games and not be worse for wear.


You might as well tell me no one would play D&D because you have to start as an inexperienced nobody and work everyday to get better at your career.
Ah, but there you have an opportunity to watch your character grow, evolve, and become more capable as he's being played. All of that seems to happen (randomly) during the chargen process in the older versions of Traveller, and then in gameplay you're pretty much stuck at the same level - which is arguably a lot less satisfying.
 
Believe it or not, a lot of people locally I've talked to actually "liked" the TNE's setting over the OTU, Virus and all. They felt it had a Mad-Max-in-space feel with none of the generic space opera cliche's and could lend to more heroic, action-packed role-playing. (In the old system, you couldn't bring a gun onto a "civilized" world without alerting the fuzz. In TNE, you're a fool for NOT carrying one on many worlds.)

So yeah, I think 1248 is a step in the right direction.
 
Believe it or not, a lot of people locally I've talked to actually "liked" the TNE's setting over the OTU, Virus and all. They felt it had a Mad-Max-in-space feel with none of the generic space opera cliche's and could lend to more heroic, action-packed role-playing. (In the old system, you couldn't bring a gun onto a "civilized" world without alerting the fuzz. In TNE, you're a fool for NOT carrying one on many worlds.)
I really like that aspect of the game. I was never a big fan of political intrigue or that sort of thing, The game I played in focused on the RC, because we all {most of us} did not want to be puppets of a patron or slaves to a monthly ship payment. Our typical sessions tended to be split between exploration and recovery. Our group consisted of a Techie, a Gun Bunny, a Swashbuckler, a detatched duty Military type, a Pilot, and a Barbarian. I can't stess enough how much more I enjoyed this than other OTU games I've played. The scope was manageable, heck we had a map of the Know Universe on the game room wall, and you could make out all the systems. The tone wasn't too snooty, you could carry weapons, most places. The tech level wasn't homgenized. There was a sense of wonder every where you went, because you didn't know what was there.

It truely annoies me to see it all swept under the rug so they can plant a new Imperuim on top of it all.
It was good stuff, better than what came before it. It really makes that time I spent tring to build a better tomorrow seem wasted. Guess I should have been plundering instead
 
" It truely annoies me to see it all swept under the rug so they can plant a new Imperuim on top of it all."

Yeah, you would have thought that the citizens of the OTU would have figured out that empires didn't work the last 3 times. Oh well.
 
Quote: "T20 needs a player specific book! When I ran a T20 campaign the only book used was mine. A few cheaper player-only books would have been sold if available (and I own a game store so this was even more painful)."

That's why the T20 players handbook is currently in production. With heaps more character classes.
 
To be honest, each of the settings has it's own appeal.

I'm talking SOLELY about setting issues, not rules.

TNE, as MAS states above, is a frontier "Wild West in Outer Space" kind of feel.

MT lends itself to a Space: Above and Beyond feel, as well as a Battlestar Galactica feel, while not preventing the "Smash and Grab". It actually lends itself well to a "Pirates are Everywhere" feel, too.

CT tends to be more of a Heinlein, Asimov, Drake, Cole-and-Bunch, and Brinn kind of feel - part of the larger whole, but still, peace isn't everywhere. But where there is peace, there is intrigue, politics, and merchantile endeavour.

T4 is more exploratory, and feels a little more Bujold, Webber, and Cole-and-Bunch. The universe isn't tamed, but the safes are... and politics, intrigue, and interpoility relations make a huge difference.

T20 is, setting wise, CT, with a bujold and cole-and-bunch influence. Individuals can make a difference, cause they're out on the edge of things, and the safes are a way off. Tension, cold war, and intrigue.

GT is a much more homogenous version of CT. PC's are even less relevant, because the simulationist nature of the line... so GT is one where tramps live off the scraps the lines can't handle, and many standard traveller trophes are altered, subtly and slightly. (I still don't see IM Cooks being in battle dress unless assigned to a foot unit. It's a different take on the CT model, with a much less space opera approach.

Traveller 2300 puts forth a wonderful setting, rife with war, politics, and business opportunity; humanocentric, but not the same universe as the other Traveller games. ( Came out just at the time that Traveller was coming to mean the setting, rather than the base assumptions of Science Fiction Adventure with Fairly simple but realistic rules.)

Traveller is a collection of variations on the theme, but each ruleset tried to support the trophes that the setting puts forward. Each can runn any of these trophes, but each ruleset supports certain things better.

CT has loads of support, and is the blanded ruleset. Marginally compatible mass combat (Striker) and boarding action (AHL), sector and world level combat systems (5Fw and Invasion Earth), and alternate versions of personal combat and ship combat (Bk1, Snapshot; Bk2, Mayday, HG). Small scale and large scale merchanting rules. Two ship design systems, and an unrelated vehicle design (Bk2, Bk5, Striker). Scads of support materials. Very limmited character growth in play. Psionics very potent, but limited useage. Almost no art.

MT: the combat system is integrated for all scales except ship-on-ship. CG is ballanced better between basic and advanced. Large Scale commerce rules only. Rules for turning the personal combat into unit combat, on levels from man/vehicle to Regiment/Wing. Research rules. More detailed ship design, plus vehicle design. Character growth in play is supported. Psionics are potent, but again, limited useage; utility further reduced by possibility of failure. Art ranging from mediocre to excellent, and usually appropriate.

TNE: Heroic PC damage taking, an otherwise excellent set of man-to-man rules, even more realistic design sequences, including weapons, vehicles, ships, body armor, and more. A closely related boardgame of ground warfare (Striker II), and the same large scale commerce rules as Ct and MT. Character growth in play can far exceed CG. Characters require significant conversions to work with CT/MT. PSionics unpredictable in effect, but no useage limit. Art almost uniformly good.

T4: again, a fairly bland ruleset. The rules for Craft designs have severla layers of abstraction available, and are based off of a more broad superset of the TNE technical architechture. There is an alternate vehicle design sequence. All the technology options of TNE, and more. 3x the skills of MT, 4x the CT skill levels, but compatible attributes, and adding a way-faster-than CG character advancement. blenty of support materials. A large scale political simulation supplement. More Psionics options than any other edition, and the most potent psionics rules so far... reliable, and useable often, but again, useage is limited. Great layout, goot to excellent art, bt often innapropriate to the materials at hand. (The Elmore pencils are exquisite, IMO)

T20: CT compatable ship design, expanded a bit, and a similar vehicle design system. 3 damage systems, each nearly identical, for three different scales. Characters incompatible with other editions, and a strong growth system. Lots of support. Small scale commerce rules. A very different, but playable and not overpowering psionics system. Layout clear, art good to excellent, almost always on target.

GT: a simulationist engine with strong gamist elements, which draws simulationists and munchkins in dispropotionate numbers... due to the GURPS technical architecture, wide ranges of technology not prt of the setting are available to GM's. A simulationist trade system available, with detail levels which produce trickle-down effects in the setting. Layout good, clear, and art good to exquisite, sometimes art used makes no connection to page, but usually appropriate.

Traveller 2300: Incompatible characters. Technical Architecture for ships only. Different hyperlight travel. brutal personal combat. semi-official conversions to use another company's game to resolve larger combat actions. Starships developed in a separate boardgame. Not part of the same "history", so compatability not made an issue. Uniformly good art, nice, clear, readable layout.

Now, confronted with the whole range, what do you teach to new players? Whichever you're using, usually. If your players are GURPSies, GT becomes an obvious choice. If they are D20 fans, T20. But, until this summer, new players would have trouble aquiring thhe base rules for anything else besides the "Current" rules. Now, they're all available in one form or another, leagally and (Except GT and T20) relatively cheaply.

The wide range of setting and rules issues is a problem. One which is probably going to be an issue for years to come.

by the same token, players now need to know the differences. So any "Setting Overview" needs to make clear that the systems differ, and that 2300 is a wholly different setting, GT is a side-branch (and has some different assumptions due to the nature of the GURPS version), and CT, MT, T4 and TNE are not supported, but are available. Mention of T5 would probably be a bad thing, unless it actually appears for sale.

Traveller is attracting new players, and new fans; It could be attracting more, but the issues that cause the problem are unlikely to be resolved: rule-set choices and setting choices. A good introductory ruleset (say CT-lite, like hunter mentioned) which references the range of options, strengths, and products would be a favor to new players. Something that also presents a good overview of the settings available, and makes it clear that Traveller is a living entity, with more choices than any other multiverse in print.

Perhaps MWM should put up such a page at his website... If people know ahead of time the various rules-styles, they can pick the one right for them and their group.

And Hunter, Dual-stating is a good thing.
 
Good summary, apart from your completely inaccurate assessment of GT. Sure, it's simulationist, but there's no way in hell that anyone who knows what the term means can call it "gamist". There's nothing in GT that means it's all about "winning". GT certainly doesn't attract munchkins any more than any other version of Traveller would (it sounds like you've had some bad experiences with people abusing the pointbuy system to come to this conclusion and are generalising from those). Clearly, you're not too keen on either GURPS or GT, but I think it's somewhat counterproductive to let that bias show through in an otherwise decent review of the game.

GT's difference is that it tied to be more realistic and more simulationist than the other versions of Traveller (largely because GURPS itself is bent that way). I think TNE actually was more simulationist and more realistic (GURPS Ultratech is one thing, but it looks like a "Dummies guide" compared to FF&S). There's nothing wrong with that, though clearly some people are more into a narrativist style - but that said, I don't think any version of the game has ever really catered for that style - there's always been a pretty strong element of simulationism and realism in the game since CT first came out.

All those people who argue about the background nitty-gritty - which is completely irrelevant to narrativist gaming since the story is the key thing there - didn't just get randomly attracted to the game for no reason, and as far as I can tell they've been here since CT came out.
 
Highwaymen! Barbarians!

The Imperium is as boring as the players and Referee make it... I think the imposition of the Trade system, even the psychological effect of seeing a line drawn between two dots had a factor in this... it gave the impression of "safe" and "settled" space.

Humans change and adapt rapidly to cultural and environmental factors. They would branch into millions of variations after so long. I think of all the sights that Earth has to offer, natural and manufactured, and then try (only try) envision such things , but on a galactic level, the scale multiplied by a million... Even if you could only truly imagine a tenth of it, it would be fantastic... there's room for everything, even "Mad Max in Space" (Deal me in for that, What!)

Also, any ADVENTURER that would call him or herself a "Gun Bunny" should get what the fates decree for him. Show some self-resepect!
 
Originally posted by spank:
It truely annoies me to see it all swept under the rug so they can plant a new Imperuim on top of it all.
It was good stuff, better than what came before it. It really makes that time I spent tring to build a better tomorrow seem wasted. Guess I should have been plundering instead
Instead of making uninformed assumptions about 1248, why not give it a chance? Just because there is a new "Imperium" doesn't mean it is a directly reincarnated Third Imperium.

The Fourth Imperium in 1248 in no way precludes "old" TNE style adventures. There are still vast swaths of unexplored, dangerous worlds. Even in 1248 after the "return of the Imperium".
 
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