Why don't new people play Traveller?

[Spinward Scout]

Make jump time 1 day instead of one week and you don't have to make Known Space any smaller. Instead of taking a year to cross the Imperium, it would take about 2 months at the most. I'd say 20 hours plus a variable. You also get a lot more info and cargo spread across the Imperium that way, which means a high TL overall.

I've always thought that jump time of 1 week was a little odd. I thought that, say, a jump 6 drive only going jump 3 should get there in half the time. But that's just my opinion.

Just an idea,

Scout

 

[RainOfSteel]

Ok, I know this goes completely the other way from what people are talking about.

I've been reading up on the rpgnet discussion.

The message, to me, is crystal clear.

The OTU is not clearly presented. In fact, as I think about it, the OTU's information and presentation is scattered in many places, and a great deal of it is as library data or very short pieces of info. The canonicity of some of it is in doubt (all DGP material, despite how much we like it and want to hang on to it).


When we look at other major milieus, we find the inevitable Worldbook (Forgotten Relams, Ravenloft, Eberron, WoD). Traveller has never had one, ever. GTD is a regional book, not a Worldbook. CT had nothing of the kind. MT had the Imperial Encyclopeia and Rebellion Era Sourcebook, but these weren't Worldbooks. Survival Margin was, largely, a news-ticker of TAS News.

No Worldbook = no ability by gaming market/community to understand what the OTU is without doing a lot of buying and a lot of digging and a lot of sweaty mind-bending work on world design after taking the bull of a wide-open Imperium as-you-want-it by the horns.

The very classic edge many felt about the OTU, that it was loosely defined, that you could make it what you wanted, has also had the effect of making many not interested in finding out, IMO.


If one fails to believe me, lets look at another, also stellar game, which also lacks widespread popularity (it's way below Traveller).

Ars Magica. It has no worldbook. There are plenty of regional books, but no Worldbook itself (the game 90% assumes you will do in-depth medieval research to support your campaign).


There it is, my asseration that the OTU needs a core-Worldbook.

 

[flykiller]

There is is, my asseration that the OTU needs a core-Worldbook.

(considering just the spinward marches) you mean a four hundred and forty worlds-book?

 

[mike wightman]

I'd like to see a "technology variants" book so that all the neat gadgets from any sci-fi source can be integrated with a Traveller game.
Give people rules for different FTL, maneuver, weapon, defence, power generation systems; include the biotech, nanotech, cybernetics, even mutations that are a staple of sci-fi (note - some of this work has been done - just take the D20M/F SRD and integrate with the rest of T20).

Oh, and make sure the tech tree goes all the way to TL20 and give a 1 page write-up of what life is like at the diferent TL's.

 

[flykiller]

I'd like to see a "technology variants" book so that all the neat gadgets from any sci-fi source can be integrated with a Traveller game.

including star trek?

 

[mike wightman]

Yes

and Star Wars, and Battlestar Galactica etc.

I'm bot suggesting that they should be made part of the OTU, just that the rules being there would make it easier for referees to include things in their games.

 

[Malenfant]

Maybe the presentation is important. Bruce Baugh on the rpgnet thread reckons that there's not enough support for Traveller "as gaming" - that there's "nothing about any of what any of it means in play".

Certainly the GDW CT material seemed to lack any kind of advice as to what to do with the games. (I dunno about T20. I'll remind myself next week when I get my book back )

Another thing is the character generation. Namely, you're generally expected to play people who have retired or left whatever forces they're in. So... what are you supposed to do if you want to run say a campaign set while everyone is still kinda youthful and in the relevant service? While still in the Marines? Or the Army? Or still serving in the Scouts? There is bugger all support for that sort of thing in Traveller (First In, WBH, and Ground Forces notwithstanding). Or even not in a service at all? How about a cop campaign set on a single planet? Or if the PCs are in the Imperial Secret Service, hunting down fugitives across the sectors? Nope, that's never even been mentioned AFAIK.

Instead as far as I can recall the only options we get in Traveller are "well, you're all between about 35 and 60, you're all retired (I think in CT you HAVE to be retired - there is no way to drop out willingly), and you're all either traders flying a rustbucket ekeing out a living, or your mercs doing missions for pay".

I don't think anyone nowadays could find the latter remotely inspiring. I think one thing that could attract people is a move away from the trading stuff. Nobody nowadays wants to do accounting in a roleplaying game.

But again, I have to sigh here. The one version of Traveller where people could play characters that were different (and actually could make a different to the setting) was TNE. And I dare say that's another reason why the old guard hated it.

Check the last line of my post. I'm not disagreeing. Just pointing out that as it stands, Traveller is still more popular than a LOT of games out there. I don't want the impression coming across to those who aren't playing that Traveller is just this old game no one plays anymore.

Well, sure. I'm not denying that it's popular. (y'know, it'd be nice to know what the "State of the Nation" is regarding Traveller. Loren was always tightlipped about how much each version was selling. Your reply is the first inkling I've had that Traveller is actually "more popular", though I don't know whether you mean in terms of current sales or in terms of people who have already bought a version of it).

I'm also not denying that it's still played. The problem is that new people aren't coming along and starting to play the game. One might wonder why that would be important if the game is so popular, but we NEED new people because we always need new approaches and ideas (and more sales, of course ).

QLI is doing great work trying to attract people using the most popular system around and to keeping the momentum going with the TAs. But I really think Traveller needs to be able to reach new people, either by breaking their misconceptions or by changing itself to be more appealing.

One interesting possibility might be to go down WW's route. They had their huge sprawling, multigame World of Darkness, and they just ended it all. What they're doing now is a complete reboot. Same lines, but with a different background. They totally swept away the old setting (but they gave lots of warning and let it all go out with a bang) and started again.

God knows the OTU could to with a reboot. Sweep away all the inconsistencies, make the presentation more attractive, throw in LOTS of different campaign and gameplay options, make it more meaningful to the modern gamer, rebuild everything from the ground up so that it is consistent and sensible. Maybe that could make a difference.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I'd like to see a "technology variants" book so that all the neat gadgets from any sci-fi source can be integrated with a Traveller game.
Give people rules for different FTL, maneuver, weapon, defence, power generation systems; include the biotech, nanotech, cybernetics, even mutations that are a staple of sci-fi (note - some of this work has been done - just take the D20M/F SRD and integrate with the rest of T20).

I'm tinkering with something along those lines when I have the free time. I've converted some of the drives from FF&S into T20/HG design systems as well as the Star Trek Warp Drive.

I'd like to do this book as well.


Hunter

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There is is, my asseration that the OTU needs a core-Worldbook.

(considering just the spinward marches) you mean a four hundred and forty worlds-book? </font>[/QUOTE]A core-Worldbook would not deal with the individual worlds. World = Overall Milieu, not individual planets.

It would contain the complete history of the OTU, from all the races. It would fill in the all gaps in the known histories (the big gaps, not the little itty bitty ones).

It would provide people with the "feel" and "mindset" of the OTU.

It would have the campaign and GM advice for the setting that is found in so many other places.

Maybe a few big campaign seeds could be dropped in. Not adventure seeds, but Epic Campaign seeds.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
A core-Worldbook would not deal with the individual worlds. World = Overall Milieu, not individual planets.

It would contain the complete history of the OTU, from all the races. It would fill in the all gaps in the known histories (the big gaps, not the little itty bitty ones).

It would provide people with the "feel" and "mindset" of the OTU.

It would have the campaign and GM advice for the setting that is found in so many other places.

Maybe a few big campaign seeds could be dropped in. Not adventure seeds, but Epic Campaign seeds.

The Rise and Fall of the Third Imperium!

Seriously though I could see this being useful.


Hunter

 

[Ben W Bell]

One thing I've always heard people say about Traveller is it's so hard to get into. There isn't a book you can point a person at and tell them that that will explain the universe to you. Traveller background and setting is spread thinly over so many books that even for those of us who know it and have most of the books it's tricky to find a piece of information. The Gateway to Destiny book goes a way to rectifying it, but it's still a book for a small region of space and not a guide to the Traveller universe.

Traveller needs a core background book. A book that deals with the Third Imperium in a high level way, shows maps of sectors, alien polities, overview of all the aliens, history and all that. How does the Imperium function, who lives there, what can we do, what is the Imperial Navy, how does technology work. A single core book that explains all these things and more in one place. It doesn't have to contain everything (and heaven knows it can't), but it needs to contain enough that someone brand new to the universe can jump in and know what is going on and what the game is about.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Let me go further on the Worldbook.

I think the Emperor's List is a great place to start. It is one of the first things I read about the OTU that brought the history of it all together for me. It centralized the history of the Imperium, bought the characters of the Emperors to life (in a thread bare sort of way).

The events and powerplays along the way were the Imperium, in many respects. Write it out, fill in the empty spots, make them the personalities they deserve to be.

Right along with some major personalities from the other races' history.

The people, the places.

 

[womble]

To draw in new gamers, I think there has to be a more overt acknowledgement that the State of the Art as the General Public predicts it will be around the time of the Third Imperium is rather higher than is evident in the OTU that they brush up against. All the discussions here as to why bio/nano/cyber/infotech aren't more obviously advanced need to be confirmed, rationalised and elucidated. A Setting Book (Era Book? Guide to the Third Imperium? Traveller's Aid Society Rough Guide?) would be the place to do this.

An additional advantage that such a product would provide is that it would attract those without the time or inclination to build their own vision from the raw cloth of the system books. It would be the ideal place to condense the canon for a common playing experience and a springboard for those who could be inspired by it to get out of their rut. It provides a strong baseline for external contributions.

And you could do one per era and the completists out there would buy it even without any firm intention of using it 'in anger'.

A Worldbook and an update to the tech (or even a clarification of why its emphasis is the way it is) would, I think give the Traveller game a boost in the 'public eye'.

The online publication route is a line which should help keep 'em once they've bitten down on the hook.

 

[Shadowdancer]

First, I agree that an OTU "worldbook" or setting overview or whatever you want to call it would be very useful, and greatly appreciated. And if it attracts new players, great and even better.

But I'm also very saddened by talk that Traveller doesn't give you the proper guidelines of how to develope different types of campaigns. Whatever happened to imagination? One of the things I've always loved about Traveller is that it is open-ended enough that you can play any sort of campaign you want, and you're not limited in what you can do by the rules, but only by your imagination.

It might be a generational thing. We've had a whole generation of people who have grown up playing computer and video games. Those games give you the backstory -- you don't have to imagine it and create it on your own. All you have to do is imagine you are the hero/protagonist/main character, and imagine yourself in that world. But the world itself has already been created for you.

Yes, creating a detailed setting or campaign takes a lot of work. And it's easier to take a pre-packaged setting and play in it rather than create your own. But lots of people do create their own, even in fantasy RPGs. Why should science fiction be any different? People have almost all of the mechanics they need to create any sort of campaign they want within the Traveller game.

This is not just limited to Traveller. One of the biggest complaints I've heard about the new d20 Future is that it gave some bare-bones ideas for several different types of campaigns or games that can be run using the rules, and didn't develope any of those ideas very fully. However, I don't think any game company can ever release enough products to cover all of the many different ways gamers can come up with to play or use a particular RPG.

I dunno; maybe it's just me and the people I've gamed with all my (gaming) life. But we've never placed a lot of emphasis on "official" campaign worlds. When we play D&D, it might be set in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms, but it's mainly just for the maps and some of the details. We change a lot of the backstory and the background and other details to fit our game. Same thing with Traveller.

But if releasing products that do the imagination and creation work for people in advance is what it takes to reach the new generation of gamers, then I guess that is what has to be done. It's just sad *that* is what it takes -- someone else to do most of your imagining for you.

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by Paraquat Johnson:
But I'm also very saddened by talk that Traveller doesn't give you the proper guidelines of how to develope different types of campaigns. Whatever happened to imagination?

Shit, man, do some sums.

Try doing a merchant/adenture campaign, for players who actually want a merchant/adventure campaign, that isn't one of the following:

a) PCs have a ship with a mortgage and overheads of around Cr 7500/day, and they sweat their balls off to bring in 7800/day instead of 7300/day so they can eat and pay the NPCs. Any patron who offers 7000/day or less to go adventuring is met with mad, derisive laughter unless it's additional revenue during mandatory downtime. PCs break off adventures half way through because it's time to haul freight now and they can't afford to stay on planet.

b) PCs have a ship with no mortgage and overheads of around Cr 300/day. They rake in money like they're printing it. The GM has to sweat his balls off inserting hijackers into jumpspace and contriving 4 week unpaid delivery runs to get the mob off their backs, so as to stop them just retiring as millinonaires after 9 months game time.

It took me two attempts, six weeks, a couple of threads on JTAS, half a dozen spreadsheets, an idea from Chris Thrash, and half a dozen more spreadsheets to get my "subsidised exploartory trader with PCs on a percentage of operating profits and adventure payments above and below the line according to patron wealth" to work.

I should have been able to just look it up. It's a problem that's been around for 25 years, and no publisher has tackled it yet.

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by Paraquat Johnson:
But if releasing products that do the imagination and creation work for people in advance is what it takes to reach the new generation of gamers, then I guess that is what has to be done. It's just sad *that* is what it takes -- someone else to do most of your imagining for you.

Italics mine.

I don't want to spend six hours preparing for every four hour session. That's work. Some people enjoy that in itself, I don't. I want to pay somebody else to do it so I don't have to. If this were D&D, I could get that off the shelf if I wanted and do it myself if I wanted. But it's Traveller, so I have no choice.

 

[TheEngineer]

Funny post

Hey Morte, we are gamers - not bookkeepers.
There are so many shades between a) and b)...so everybody could save the balls.

About preperation - a theory:
The more Traveller stuff you have,
the longer preparation takes.

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
There are so many shades between a) and b)...so evrybody could save the balls.

So why don't the books say "and here's how to pick the one that suits the game you want to run"?

That's what Bruce Baugh pointed to on rpg.net -- Traveller does not support the business of actually setting up and running games very well. You pretty much have to work it out by doing it wrong a few times.

That may have been OK in 1978, but it's 2004 now and the competition has moved on.

 

[TheEngineer]

Isnt that a general RPG problem ?
Or is it just a personal problem ?
A friend ran a Delta Green session a couple of weeks ago. With just a story and a bit of background and nearly no preparation.
I asked mayself, why isnt that possible in Traveller, too ? I always fall into a "need more maps, stats, etc" mode, which extents preparation into "the far future". (Hmmm, perhaps thats why Traveller has the subtitle "Adventures in the far future")
There are lots of predefined characters and stories. There are tons of maps.
So, whats missing ?

 

[Morte]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
A friend ran a Delta Green session a couple of weeks ago. With just a story and a bit of background and nearly no preparation.
I asked mayself, why isnt that possible in Traveller, too ? I always fall into a "need more maps, stats, etc" mode
[...]
There are lots of predefined characters and stories. There are tons of maps.
So, whats missing ?

On the setting side, the problem I find is that you can't join the dots.

Most stuff is set in a particular system, or set of systems, and a lot of it depends on having a repressive government code with TL 6-7 and the Zhodani within 20 parsecs (or whatever), and it's outside the range of your game, and it involves a fair amount of work to convert it to somewhere nearer.

If that were D&D it would be easier -- you can put Drow (the D&D Zhodani) anywhere, TL is generally about the same, if you need a repressive kingdom you can teleport there, and so on. Traveller is constrained by maps, and makes it worse by filling the maps with 90% noise (systems which are just a UWP).

There are quite a few Trav adventures (I must have 30) but they're all set somewhere else. E.g. EA5 is good, I think it's perhaps QLI's best adventure to date, but it's set at the top right corner of Ley sector and I'm in Glimmerdrift. I'm unlikely to ever run it, I shouldn't really have bought it.

An adventure tied to a planet 30 parsecs from where I am now may as well not exist. A world 30 parsecs away may as well not exist. GtD has 48 worlds in the main text, but once you pick a campaign start point on the map you can just delete 30 of them from the book. Cut the pages out -- the book will be just as useful afterwards, and lighter to carry.

This is... I feel like Hunter is dangling these cool adventures in front of my nose then snatching them away.

And it could all be resolved by planning and design. None of this would have happened if QLI had said "each adventure will start within a parsec or two of where the previous adventure ended, barring special cases like the Mercenary Cruiser (which is maybe a one-shot for a different sort of group)." People like me would be much better off. Even people who prefer the exact opposite -- a framework with no detail -- would be slightly better off, because they'd know which part of the map to avoid.

Publishers wouldn't have had to write any extra material to do this, just locate it differently. But it takes long-term thought and prior planning and an attitude of "let's make it easy to GM in this setting for people who want that."