Why don't new people play Traveller?

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I bow to you infinite wisdom, Oh Mighty Peers, but disagree. The game itself should be it's own reference. Part of the reason why so many media representations are half-assed is that they are all directly derivative of one another. Routinely, Properties are pitched like:

"It's one part "X-files", two parts "Ally McBeal", and one part "She's the Sheriff"

Formulaic processes net formulaic results.

I won't compare traveller to any one TV show, because Traveller could be ANY TV show you wish.
Though, I would pay heavy credits to see an All Hiver Space Western. People have different tastes.

I'm sure Joss would love to see (from behind a huge pile of currency) the fervor with which you defend his property, but IMHO, I have seen better from him.

Firefly gives me the same feeling as the second season of "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century" it's Gunsmoke in Space. Just my opinion. I stand by my dislike for a lot of these shows, as they won't hold up to the test of time. And I LIKE westerns, even knowing that they are often ah, "Historically Challenged"

I would like to see a movie of Travller too, how much is the liscencing fee? Who do I contact? Who gets script approval? I agree that such exposure is beneficial to a property, but only if the film is Good. NO ONE really benefitted form the D&D movie... I saw it in the cutout bin at the supermarket two weeks after it was out on DVD.

Now if you'll excuse me, "Earth: Final Conflict" fan fiction doesn't write itself...

 

[spank]

Cost was a barrier in the games I tried to set up. I heard more than one chorus of 45$!!!Maybe Glen could give some more input on this.

 

[spank]

Cost was a barrier in the games I tried to set up. I heard more than one chorus of 45$!!!Maybe Glen could give some more input on this.

The D&D movie was embarrassing, even more than Judge Dredd.

Judge Dredd did give me one good thing: a cool quote to yell after shooting bad guys in Shadowrun. "I am the Law!"

Either one of those was better than Starship Troopers. Somebody, several somebodies need to be decorporialized over that. I still feel unclean every time I think about that movie.

 

[jasper]

If you were doing a traveller movie you need a good script and good actors first. then Add in more traveller elements.
Or you steal classic films stories, maintain the writing and change the location. Instead sinking liner a hulled starship.
Which St classic show is another version of Run Silent Run Deep?
Also the D&D 2 movie is probably only being made due to Lord of Rings success.

 

[BetterThanLife]

SO let them each get their copy of T20 Lite. After all the only person that really needs a rulebook is the GM. I personally prefer to GM a game where the players aren't a bunch of rules mechanics and just want to play the game.

Originally posted by spank:
Cost was a barrier in the games I tried to set up. I heard more than one chorus of 45$!!!Maybe Glen could give some more input on this.

 

[Gaming Glen]

Most of my Traveller playing group was teenagers; a group not known for having lots of cash to toss on big expensive books, especially when they have to buy the PHB, also (which a few already had). The current economic status (even two years ago when I ran the game) in the US isn't helping, either; the father and his son couldn't afford it after the father lost his job back then. They did have my copy of T20 Lite version that I gave them after I got the THB. And now with gas prices skyrocketing mom is going to have spend that extra cash filling her SUV instead of giving it to Johnny to spend while he sits in my store's gaming area that is now a cheap babysitter for many (especially on weekends...sigh...we do sell drinks and snacks that help in that regard).

An aside, I ran a D&D game sometime later and added an incentive to buy stuff: you got 1000 XP for every $10 you spent on stuff, besides drinks and snacks. Sold extra dice, miniatures, character record folios (IMO, these are a waste, but they sell) and a few books that way. ka-ching.

The THB would be worth 4500 XP!


Glen

 

[Gaming Glen]

Books do not stack up against TV and movies; but books can have art that can look very good. And that art can help sell the book when the potential customer is standing there flipping pages. Some of the THB art is decent, others so-so, and some repeated.

Looking through it now.. ah, there is a reporter with what the wording says is a holocamera. IMO, it looks like a cheap vcr-camera.

The colored pictures of the class characters in the THB is not dynamic enough. And they're repeated pictures, albeit the others were black and white. They should have been doing something related to their profession. This is a "space" game, right? Not one character is doing anything in space. Space-related pictures appear later in the book, but by then the customer may have put the book down. The academic could have been sitting among holograms while doing his research, now he is any boring person in a chair. The space ship pictures are a bit boring, also. IMO, a picture of the patrol cruiser vs. a corsair with a merchant ship in the background might have said a lot more about the game.

I didn't mean this to be a critical review of the THB art, but what it could have been to help sell it (although the THB didn't need help). More specifically, how to help sell Traveller. SF tends to be more visual, since its all made up. Fantasy has our historical ancient and medieval periods to draw upon for back drops, i.e., what does the peasant or bar wench look like. What does the ruins of some temple look like (take any current picture of the Acropolis )? We have plenty of castles, both plain and fanciful, and wonders in the real world to help set up fantasy worlds. Who hasn't seen pictures of such images? What does SF have? We have the space shuttle and the ISS. The new SpaceShipOne is a lot more appealing, and its only a suborbital craft.

To sum up, you need some dynamic colored art to help draw in the younger generation. Show what the game can be. Show how what might be normally a boring vocation (class) can have some excitement. Players want to play Indiana Jones, not professor Smith dusting rock outcroppings; that's the NPC's job. Complex tables and charts are fine, but do not shove them into the face of the customer.

another 2 creds worth,
Glen

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
[QB] I bow to you infinite wisdom, Oh Mighty Peers, but disagree. The game itself should be it's own reference. Part of the reason why so many media representations are half-assed is that they are all directly derivative of one another.

You do realise that there's pretty much no such thing as an original plot nowadays, right? Everything is basically derivative of something else, with something tweaked.

Routinely, Properties are pitched like:

"It's one part "X-files", two parts "Ally McBeal", and one part "She's the Sheriff"

That's because it gives people an easy reference. If you compare something that people haven't seen to something that people have seen, then it's going to be more likely to click in their heads isn't it?

If I say "it's like Firefly" then that immediately brings to mind the concept of a bunch of guys flying around in a clapped out trader trying to get enough money to get by and doing jobs of dubious moral quality. The alternative would be to say "well, there's this big interstellar Imperium, right? And that covers a huge amount of space, but there's enough room for individual traders, who are mostly retired people. And they fly around all the different worlds trying to earn money and doing jobs for people..." and so on.

What explanation was easier and more evocative - comparing it to Firefly (which has a nice strong visual element too) or describing the background from scratch?

I won't compare traveller to any one TV show, because Traveller could be ANY TV show you wish.

Now you're just being stubborn. You just have to compare it to something that is close to get people's attention. People need instant images to get a grip on something, not a vague sweeping "oh, it can be anything you like" statement.

And are you really expecting us to believe you've never grokked a game or a book by someone telling you that it was like a certain TV show or movie?

Firefly gives me the same feeling as the second season of "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century" it's Gunsmoke in Space. Just my opinion. I stand by my dislike for a lot of these shows, as they won't hold up to the test of time. And I LIKE westerns, even knowing that they are often ah, "Historically Challenged"

Your opinion on the series isn't the point though. The point is to provide an easy, obvious, popular point of reference for people to latch on to when describing the game. Firefly is the closest thing on TV or the silver screen that has the tropes of the OTU. Again, if you can point out a series that does that better or more appropriately, then say so and we'll use that for comparison instead.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

So why does your opinion seem to matter so much, so much that mine doesn't matter, as you say? the only way that you can really say that Firefly helps out Traveller would be if it was called "Traveller: Firefly" which it ain't.

A large part of the problem with most things nowadays is the "There are no original Ideas" attitude. It's apathy. It's "everything has been done before, so why bother." that keeps media offerings instantly forgettable, and interchangeable.

The most evident hurdle to such a production would be where to start. Even fromthe beginnings I always saw Traveller as being epic in scale. Anything could happen. To make it work, you would need to take a risk. I propose:

A one-hour Action/Adventure Anthology series, on cable, that shifts focus from week to week on elements and personages within the Traveller Universe. For a comparison and reference: Like Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, or Night Gallery.

Advantages:
1. Actors, good actors, like to do this sort of stuff to add to thier resume, because it doesn't cast them in as being "Captain Kirk" for the rest of thier lives. (Charlton Heston was on an Outer Limits show once, one of the new ones, it was a clip show, but There he was.) It would defeat the "Star Trek" or "Magnificent Seven" model that way. You wouldn't have Ensemble actors asking to Direct. New Actors would be more likely to "dig it out" if they saw it as a chance to showcase thier talent.

2. You could convey the enormity of the OTU. One week could be about Zhodani, The other week could be "free trader Beowulf" or whatever.

3. Anyone could write Scripts, even you. (and that's a general "You")

Disdvantages

1. Whoever is wwriting scripts has go to be able to think on thier feet, and convey important, topical ideas in a one hour format. It would be challenging, but worth it, if done right.

2. Production Costs. Sets and backgrounds would have to be cleverly done, changeable and reusable with only slight redressing. A composite Technique of real and "virtual" sets could make this possible, though hard.

3. Anyone could write Scripts, even you. (and that's a general "You" )

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
[QB] So why does your opinion seem to matter so much, so much that mine doesn't matter, as you say?

Because you're thinking too rigidly and you're being too close-minded about it, that's why.

Do you only ever compare one thing to another if they're identical?! I'm sure you don't.

the only way that you can really say that Firefly helps out Traveller would be if it was called "Traveller: Firefly" which it ain't.

If I had a setting that involved humans fleeing some big disaster in fleets of huge ramshackle ships, looking for a new place to live while being chased by hostile alien forces, then what gives you a better picture of what the game is about - me describing everyting in detail or saying "it's like Battlestar Galactica"? It doesn't matter that in my setting the aliens are evil squishy worm things in organic ships whose world the humans accidentally destroyed, and the humans are our descendants instead of our ancestors... there are still blindingly obvious similarities between it and BG. And I don't have to like the series to be able to point to it and say it's similar to my concept - that much is fairly undeniable. Comparing it to the series gives people a strong image that's close enough to my concept to latch onto the sort of thing that can be done in my setting.


Same goes for Firefly. It's not identical to Traveller (though I've already demonstrated how easy it would be to put set in a corner of the OTU), but it gives the right idea. And if you deny those similarities exist, then either you haven't seen the series or you're so blinded by your cynicism and dislike for it that you are unwilling to see the glaringly obvious similarities between the two that everyone else can see.

Nobody is saying that Firefly IS Traveller. We're saying that it is like Traveller.

And while I'm sure your commentary about making movies and so on is interesting (and BTW, you just summarised everything that was done for Firefly), it's not particularly relevant to this thread (in fact, there is another thread about what people think a Traveller movie should be elsewhere on this board that you can redirect such things to)


I mean, how would YOU attempt to describe the 3I to someone, Baron? Without using any kind of TV or movie or literary references, mind you. (so no Firefly, no Asimov, no H Beam Piper...). Just saying "it's about ordinary joes in space" doesn't really sound all that gripping, does it?

This is probably something that puts people off the 3I, related to the lack of a concise, concentrated background primer - they don't get a nice snappy summary of the setting that actually sounds interesting when they want info about it.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I think you're a jerk, too, if its any consolation... you really have a lot of nerve. You have no right or cause to speak to me like that. Who do you think you are?

 

[Malenfant]

I think given your responses that I have every right and cause to speak to you as I have done (it's not like I've even insulted you at all either, and I don't think I'm even being particularly condescending or patronising either). I am merely responding to your points. I'm also asking you to say how you'd describe the 3I yourself in a better way since you want to take it on its own merits, and you haven't answered that yet.

I acknowledge that you don't like Firefly, but I think you are being stubborn, close-minded, and rigid about things here. You have also demonstrated that you are quite cynical about the merits of new scifi series too. But that doesn't change the fact that a hell of a lot of people here and on the TML can see the similarity between Firefly and Traveller - so why do you continue to refuse to acknowledge that all these people may actually have a point? How are they all wrong?

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I am not taking part in this anymore. You win, Mal. Enjoy it.

 

[Malenfant]

Sigh. It's not about anyone "winning".
If people stomped off everytime they disagreed with someone then discussion wouldn't get very far now, would it? Understanding only comes through continued discussion and education.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Ok, Mal, whatever...

 

[hunter]

Ok guys, lets move on.

Hunter

 

[Malenfant]

So...

People have talked about getting it in stores and advertising it more. So how does one advertise a game nowadays? AFAIK the best ways are (a) playing it somewhere visible (cons, demos), (b) reviews/threads on places like rpgnet, (c) posters in gaming stores and adverts in magazines, (d) getting it more widely distributed in places like bookstores and amazon.

What's the success rate of running a game at a convention? Do you get new players who have never seen the game before joining in, or just old fans?

Are there even any general gaming magazines to advertise in?

 

[Kpeterson]

General gaming magazines? As in, not "house organs"?

If that's what you're referring to, there aren't very many of them around these days. The only ones that come to mind are Valkyrie (a UK magazine that I rarely see in US game stores) and Game Trade magazine. Game Trade would probably be the most ideal, because it's more a collection of advertising and product releases for retailers' "consumption" than a magazine devoted to Rpg gamers. (Sure, it has reviews and a few articles, but the bulk of it is devoted to product releases and schedules for gaming companies).

 

[Evo Plurion]

Hunter, I asked earlier if you had any thoughts on this. I'm sure we'd all consider your opinion valuable, given your involvement in the game's current production.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by Evo Plurion:
Hunter, I asked earlier if you had any thoughts on this. I'm sure we'd all consider your opinion valuable, given your involvement in the game's current production.

You'll need to be a bit more specific at this point, there are a lot of posts in this thread

Hunter