Where would this fit in terms of personal weapons?

[Enoki]

This is a prototype US Army 30mm grenade launcher / mega shotgun. It fires a variety of munitions. But it isn't a 4 cm grenade launcher, nor is it a shotgun. With the munitions it has, it performs as well as the 4 cm grenade launcher but is lighter and can easily be a shotgun if a bit heavier. So, how would you fit it into the game? What additions would you make to it. One I'd make is it fires guided munitions. That is, the user locks onto a target and the round will fly there, no straight line needed.

 

[Sentinel]

The Light Assault Gun is a 20mm weapon with special purpose ammunition. I would classify something like this as a heavier version of the LAG

 

[Rupert]

It's a grenade launcher, simple as that. The time fuse is nice, and necessary because of the flat trajectory. Note that the flat trajectory and high velocity means a hefty recoil. Also note that it uses a laser rangefinder, and that means that using it means you're announcing your presence, which might not be a good idea.

 

[Dragoner]

Probably the same as the RAM Grenade launcher.

 

[Condottiere]

Probably too clunky for inside the trench.

 

[Enoki]

It's a grenade launcher, simple as that. The time fuse is nice, and necessary because of the flat trajectory. Note that the flat trajectory and high velocity means a hefty recoil. Also note that it uses a laser rangefinder, and that means that using it means you're announcing your presence, which might not be a good idea.

Recoil can be moderated with a shock absorbing stock. The laser rangefinder isn't a must but rather a can. That is, you don't have to use it, and likely a decently skilled operator wouldn't bother most of the time.

 

[Enoki]

Probably the same as the RAM Grenade launcher.

I see it more as an alternative ACR in game terms.

 

[Spinward Flow]

It's a grenade launcher, simple as that.

Well ... a 30mm grenade launcher that's compatible with programmable grenades ...
Hearing how heavy the "bare" weapon is, along with 7 mags of ammo for it, it's sounds like "quite the load" for an infantryman to lug around. But being able to dial in WHERE grenades go (in Space & Time!) ought to be MIGHTY disruptive to a variety of situations and contexts.

What I find most interesting is that the weapon is not crew served (or, it doesn't have to be crew served), so it's a One Man Tube system. Granted, a unit commander may order other troops in the unit to carry "additional spare mags" of grenades to increase ammo supplies per unit ... but that's just butting up against the Infantryman Back Pain problem of being loaded down with "too much stuff" to carry already.

For me, the idea that you could use a remote drone to lase a potential target for rangefinding data, which then gets networked into the grenade launcher has ... scary implications (for anyone on the receiving end!).

 

[Condottiere]

There are complaints with the current replacement, basically weight and carried ammunition.

 

[casquilho]

Probably the same as the RAM Grenade launcher.

Yep, that was what I was thinking is it is a re-skin of the RAM GL.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Rocket Assisted Multipurpose (RAM) Grenades

Well, Cappy DID MENTION the fact that the ammunition provider is researching rocket propulsion for 30mm grenades ... so ...

The main problem with rocket propulsion (ie. Gyrojet) rounds, historically, was that putting rocket thrust into bullets made them ... inaccurate over distance (even as little as 10m). Maybe not quite as bad as Congreve Rockets ... but still really bad from a marksmanship perspective for something coming out of a gun (think musket ball type "accuracy" rather than a rifled round).

 

[Dragoner]

Yep, that was what I was thinking is it is a re-skin of the RAM GL.

A lighter, squad version.

I see it more as an alternative ACR in game terms.

Damage terms they are calling it similar to the current 40mm, which dates back 60-70 years.

 

[Enoki]

Well ... a 30mm grenade launcher that's compatible with programmable grenades ...
Hearing how heavy the "bare" weapon is, along with 7 mags of ammo for it, it's sounds like "quite the load" for an infantryman to lug around. But being able to dial in WHERE grenades go (in Space & Time!) ought to be MIGHTY disruptive to a variety of situations and contexts.

What I find most interesting is that the weapon is not crew served (or, it doesn't have to be crew served), so it's a One Man Tube system. Granted, a unit commander may order other troops in the unit to carry "additional spare mags" of grenades to increase ammo supplies per unit ... but that's just butting up against the Infantryman Back Pain problem of being loaded down with "too much stuff" to carry already.

For me, the idea that you could use a remote drone to lase a potential target for rangefinding data, which then gets networked into the grenade launcher has ... scary implications (for anyone on the receiving end!).

What I see it as is more like a grenade launching BAR than anything else. It's squad level artillery that replaces single shot grenade launchers. With the grenades being smaller 3 cm versus 3.7 (something like the L8)

or a larger 4cm launcher, what you get is something that is functional as a squad heavy weapon like a BAR, MG 34, M60, etc. It's instant artillery for a squad that one man can handle. Sure, it might be a bit bulky compared to an ACR or gauss rifle, but it's close enough in weight that one man can carry and use it and bring along a worthwhile ammo load. If you have all the other squadies carrying one magazine in addition, that's a lot of firepower you can lay down. You really don't need rocket assistance if you can fire rounds from it to 500 meters even if you have to lob them in. You just add a fire control module to it for accuracy.
Handheld, non-laser, optical rangefinders already exist and are no bigger than a scope. You don't need pinpoint accuracy with HE.

With even higher technology you might get it down to 2.5 or 2 cm with the same effectiveness.

 

[Condottiere]

This might be termed pocket artillery.

If you can unload accurate explosive ordnance on the opposing troops, at the minimum that's immediate suppressive fire.

It's not a question as to whether it isn't really useful, but more, like the general purpose machinegun, how and when do you use it.

 

[spank]

In the end you are going to run up against a lower limit for Grenade launcher effectiveness, you just can't pack enough explosives and fragmentary mass into the smaller volume.
For example when testing the XM25 grenade launcher they said:
"able to fire larger 270 g (9.5 oz) 25 mm grenade rounds which would generate 50 percent more, and heavier, fragments within a 6 m (20 ft) radius compared to the experimental 20 mm grenades.
The have been 12-gauge grenades, but their blast radius is ~1 meter, so you do see a decided reduction in effect.

The most bizarre military shotgun ammo ever

The shotgun is a versatile weapon that's tied to its ammo. Today we have the most bizarre military shotgun ammo on display

www.sandboxx.us

The real benefit is going to be things like timed air-burst or firing special ammo. I always wanted to see a grenade launcher that could shoot a tactical sensor package that would stick to a wall and allow observation around corners. Linked with a smart grenade or mini-missile it could be quite effective. Something like the 40mm mini-missle that Raytheon demo'd a few years ago.

Successful Test for Pike 40mm Guided Rounds | Defense Media Network

Raytheon successfully tests Pike 40mm guided grenade rounds.

www.defensemedianetwork.com

 

[Condottiere]

In terms of load, how many times do you think you're going to need to fire that particular ordnance, in a particular time window?

If you think in terms of less than ten, you could use laser guided rifle grenades.

As I understand it, there are treaty reasons that there is a minimum size for explosive ordnance, which I think start at twenty millimetres..

 

[Rupert]

Recoil can be moderated with a shock absorbing stock. The laser rangefinder isn't a must but rather a can. That is, you don't have to use it, and likely a decently skilled operator wouldn't bother most of the time.

Recoil of high velocity weapons can be made to hurt less, but physics says you still take the momentum, and with a heavy projectile like a 30mm grenade that means quite a bit, so it'll still have a hefty recoil.

As for the laser rangefinder, not using it means you need at least as much skill as with a low velocity 40mm grenade launcher, so there goes that advantage (lower operator skill required). What's more, if you get it wrong, the grenade doesn't miss by a bit and maybe catch someone in the frag radius anyway, it just goes off early or late (and with its high velocity getting it wrong will probably be by enough to hit nothing).

And don't forget that a 400mm grenade with the same tech (i.e. fuse miniaturisation) can carry more bang. Also, a low-velocity grenade launcher doesn't need air-burst to be able to hit troops in trenches and defilade - the high arc lets them drop the grenades behind the cover/into the trench.

Is this a nice bit of kit if it works as advertised? Yes. Is it just better than a modern low velocity 40mm? No.

 

[Rupert]

For me, the idea that you could use a remote drone to lase a potential target for rangefinding data, which then gets networked into the grenade launcher has ... scary implications (for anyone on the receiving end!).

It does require that the have exact location of the drone and firer, and given the small warhead GPS might not be enough. It also means even more emissions. Not fatal on the modern battlefield, but it's getting that way. Fibre optic drone control is a thing now, which helps, but limits the mobility of both the drone and the controller (and add weight, etc.). And remember - high velocity, direct fire. A drone directing a few 60mm or 81mm mortars bothers me more - more bang, more reach, and from somewhere out of easy retaliation by infantry armed with direct fire weapons.

 

[Rupert]

In terms of load, how many times do you think you're going to need to fire that particular ordnance, in a particular time window?

If you think in terms of less than ten, you could use laser guided rifle grenades.

As I understand it, there are treaty reasons that there is a minimum size for explosive ordnance, which I think start at twenty millimetres..

15+ mm and one ounce shells, from memory. Hence one-pounder and two-pounder cannons in the early days of automatic weapons.

One of the problems of small shells is that the fuse can't be smaller than a certain size, so it takes up a greater and greater portion of the available volume as the shell shrinks. 20mm cannon rounds get away with this because 1) the fuse is very simple for such a shell, and 2) they're mainly used for shooting up light vehicles and aircraft and rely on direct hits. An anti-infantry grenade that relies on area effect needs a more sophisticated fuse and more explosive effect, so the minimum useful size of the shell goes up. Vietnam War era 40mm grenades had a tiny explosive charge because the fuse used up so much space. Modern fuses are considerably smaller, and thus a truly modern 40mm grenade will be much more effective than the old ones (and than a high-velocity 30mm grenade that's both smaller and needs to use more mass and volume on the casing to resist firing forces).

That said, I've often thought that the US' dislike of small mortars (despite the really excellent service they got from their 60mm mortars over the years) hasn't done them any favours - a 2"/51mm mortar is man portable and gives more reach and bang than a 40mm grenade launcher (though it is heavier and so is the ammo, of course), and 60mm mortars, while crew served aren't really less portable than GPMGs in sustained fire configuration (and are very easily carried by light vehicles).

 

[Condottiere]

One size fits all has gotten any number of defence ministers into trouble.

There is something to be said for one standard model for a specific weapon category, especially if you can't support a multitude of different ones.

That's not to say it doesn't happen, but experience indicates you find one suitable, and bet the farm on it.