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What's Your Astrogator Good For?

robject

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MTU has had trouble wrestling with the Astrogator. What does he do that the ship's computer can't do? It's very useful (for the referee) to have a specific player skill required for jump-capable ships, but how do you explain it in YTU?

Does your astrogator have additional duties? Do you combine the position with another?

I tend to make the astrogator somewhat unique and/or creepy. He's either got some pseudo-psionic skill that lets him see "eddies in the fabric of the space-time continuum", or he's got a cyberpunkesque neural-computer implant -- along with a high computer skill rating, the team's hacker.
 
Well, DUH...

Rolling up Misjump of course!




In the THB, they say that an Astrogator uses the ship`s computer and his gut feeling to do the calculations.

Not quite Dune Guild Navigator, but it seems it need more than pure mathematics to get it right, or rather "More Right" than with only a computer.

One must not forget than in Traveller, computers aren`t *that* much trusted. you can`t have one pilot (well, except in emergency situation) and all that, so I guess that having an astrogator doing/rafining all/part/some of the calculations would be in that line of thoughts...
 
He's like George Jetson -
The guy who pushes the button...

I mean, the Astro Computer doesn't just do the jump itself - someone has to push the big JUMP button...

-MADDog
 
There's not really any need for an astrogator or pilot - the computer can do both their jobs far better than a human. The same's true of gunners, too. It's just one of the things where we ignore reality.
 
Originally posted by Sandman:


<snip>

One must not forget than in Traveller, computers aren`t *that* much trusted. you can`t have one pilot (well, except in emergency situation) and all that, so I guess that having an astrogator doing/rafining all/part/some of the calculations would be in that line of thoughts...
There I think you touch on the base of the problem. The Pilot is often perceived as vital and glamorous when in reality he's even less needed than the Navigator imo. The computers in some jumbo jets today can (iirc) taxi, lift off, fly and land all without more than a few settigs dialed in from the navigator (like where to go). The reason its not done is nobody trusts the darn things, much better to have Pilot error to fall back on I guess. How many flight computers are tired because they just flew transatlantic with no layover, or are showing up minutes before departure because they overslept after a late night of bar hopping. You get the idea. Me, I'd prefer the computer do the flying, but with a pilot there to monitor it in case.

Anyway, back on topic, the computer could eliminate all but the people skills (i.e. Stewards) aboard ship. It has not so we must have reasons. The easiest is mistrust of computers but (at least before Virus) there seems little reason for that. The real reason of course is it is an RPG and we need to find Roles for all the Players in the Game.

So we have our small ship crew complement of:

The Pilot, whose job it is to monitor the flight computer and anticipate unforseeable problems in the flight profile and correct for them, either manually or with new program parameters. (And its not like a dogfight in space with zooming and rolling and looping,
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)

The Astrogator, whose job is defining the parameters for the desired flight path and feeding those into the navigation computer to do the actual plots which the astrogator then checks to see if they overlooked anything. Like arriving at the destination with a bad vector.

The Engineer, who monitors the computers watching the power plant and drive(s) and if an event comes up that requires repair or maintenance they get their hands in there.

The Gunner, who identifies targets as hostile or friendly for the computer to provide firing solutions for (after being detected of course) and once he or she confirms the target, orders the firing solution to engage. (And again its not like sitting in a rotating turret with a clear viewport and eyeballing targets and pulling the trigger as they fly by
file_28.gif
)

The Steward, if provided handles the comfort of the passengers, and to a lesser need the crew. It can be anything from providing a good homecooked meal (rather than the glop from the recycler, or the instant meals), to cleaning the ship, clothing, and bedding for you. On bigger ships the Chief Steward usually also handles the business of ticket sales and maybe some cargo brokering as well as the ships payroll.

The Medic, and every ship should have one (at least), will tend to minor complaints personally and probably use a computer to diagnose and suggest (maybe even assist) treatment for serious illness and injury.

All the above is my interpretation, more or less. From this you might think that an expert Computer technician would be a good addition and I'd agree, though the job usually falls on the Astrogator
who everybody seems to think is really not needed otherwise ;)

Oh and in case you're wondering I have nothing against StarWars and its treatment, I just prefer something a little more realistic for Traveller
 
The Navigator (Astrogator to you 'new fangled' traveller players) contributes to a number of tasks:

1) getting the ship from planet to satellite
2) getting the ship from planet to planet
3) plotting interstellar jumps and monitoring them
4) locating the ship when you arrive
5) same as #4, but when you arrive where you didn't plan to arrive.... (ie misjump)
6) apparently, in the Starship Ops manual, the navigator also makes a contribution to gas giant skimming and other similar forms of refueling...

So, the navigator has a bunch of things to do. He has computer assistance, but he provides the 'judgement' of acceptable levels of risk or trade offs and makes decisions like which path he wishes the ship to take if two or more are avialable. There are some types of problem that are difficult to solve with a conventional binary computer that the human brain solves very handily.

And one good reason for maintaining a human in all decision loops: The computer may be smart, but no one holds it legally liable. The human always has a self interest in not screwing up badly enough to be killed outright or to have to face many angry lawyers. (Perhaps a worse fate than dying). And computers do malfunction - anyone seen some of the last Mars probes or some of the fun with flight control computers on Airbuses and the like?

It is in human nature to trust other humans more than machines. It seems to me that the other criticism that humans show up tired etc could be addressed both by modern stimulants/revival drugs and anti-hangover drugs and by passive metabolic scanners that impose strict parametric limits on what physical condition a ship's officer must be in to be 'flight ready'. Right now, we have a hard time doing this - but with traveller med-tech, it isn't too hard.

I think rather than trying to get machines to replace humans, we should be concentrating on ways to have machines augment humans and help them do things better, not to do things in place of them.

Unless, of course, one is a borg wannabee... ;)
 
Kaladorn hit the nail fairly well on the head, without a astrogator getting to a planet would consist of pointing a ship either at the planet or where you guess the planet will be, and correcting every few hours until you get there. Of course a computer could handle that, given suficent information, but a person is usually more intuitive. A good example is catching a ball. That requires excessive amounts of calculation, but a person can just do it.

It would be nice if the skill of the astrogator was actual reflected in the exit of the ship from jumpspace. Say for example {in T20}a skilled astrogator has time to plot a jump, when he roles for the jump each 2 points He succedes by a} decreases the time in j-space by 4 hours, b} reduces the feul required by 1%, or c} improves the exit vector of the ship.

Just a thought
 
Originally posted by spank:
It would be nice if the skill of the astrogator was actual reflected in the exit of the ship from jumpspace. Say for example {in T20}a skilled astrogator has time to plot a jump, when he roles for the jump each 2 points He succedes by a} decreases the time in j-space by 4 hours, b} reduces the feul required by 1%, or c} improves the exit vector of the ship.
In MegaTrav, IIRC, you could botch the result. If you did it really well (outstanding success), you ended up using 50% of the fuel you used to accelerate to your pre-jump vector to slow down and get to where you are going. A normal success was an equal amount of fuel. A failure was anywhere up to 150 or 200% more fuel, IIRC. (ie you came out faced directly away from where you needed to be and you had to not only cancel your vector, but build up one going back the other way...).
 
whatever their deficiencies, humans are capable of self-correction and common sense judgement. computers are not. humans are also better at dealing with unexpected situations. computers can only handle the expected and preplanned.
 
IMTU Except on larger /military vessels the Navigator was also the the sensor opps person. Detecting where you are in space and detecting other things in that same space made alot of sense to me. In that same vein Navigators plotted the course using a navcomp unit but the pilot programmed it into the flight control systems. Of ourse these tasks could be streamlined as on the scout singleships, but generally if you could afford a navigator(who also maintianed a library of jump programs) you did.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
whatever their deficiencies, humans are capable of self-correction and common sense judgement. computers are not. humans are also better at dealing with unexpected situations. computers can only handle the expected and preplanned.
Interestingly, not *all* humans are capable of significant learning, not all humans are capable of common sense (and what is common sense may be a totally perceptual item and utterly 'uncommon' in fact), and many humans also deal very poorly with unexpected situations unless trained to do so... trained to react according to rote behaviours and immediate action drills - kind of similar to linear programming!
 
Originally posted by Qwerty:
IMTU Except on larger /military vessels the Navigator was also the the sensor opps person. Detecting where you are in space and detecting other things in that same space made alot of sense to me. In that same vein Navigators plotted the course using a navcomp unit but the pilot programmed it into the flight control systems. Of ourse these tasks could be streamlined as on the scout singleships, but generally if you could afford a navigator(who also maintianed a library of jump programs) you did.
I'd have guessed this as true on mid-sized ships. On large sized (esp military) ships, you'd have scans/tactical teams whose ONLY job was figuring out what was out there and what it was doing. Navigation would be an entirely separate task. The CIC would be full of these types - commo, fleet tactics, and sensor ops would be the primary skillsets, with some computer thrown in for a good measure.
 
In this day of GPS when we have LORAN radio navigation for forty years every ship has at least two officers (Petty officers in the Navy) qualified to navigate by the stars.

I assume Lloyds of Capitol won't insure a commercial ship without a qualified astrogator on the off-chance you misjump. IMTU if you can jump without a navigator, but if you misjump with an navigator he can roll 10+ to correct it into a normal jump.

If you do misjump the navigator is your only hope to get back.
 
One must not forget than in Traveller, computers aren`t *that* much trusted.
I don't think there's any reason for that. Today, in 2003, computers can be a little unreliable, and some people don't fully trust them, but they've only been around 50 years. Traveller is set 3500 years in the future. What tech have we got that's been refined for 3500+ years? The wheel?
 
Hello robject,

The astrogator or most of the other crew positions are backup systems to the various computer systems, provide a random choice generator in sticky situations, are mobile and highly adaptive repair units. Also astrogators are required for in system navigation duty when said computer system is down. Look at what happened in TNE with Virus?

Originally posted by robject:
MTU has had trouble wrestling with the Astrogator. What does he do that the ship's computer can't do? It's very useful (for the referee) to have a specific player skill required for jump-capable ships, but how do you explain it in YTU?

Does your astrogator have additional duties? Do you combine the position with another?

I tend to make the astrogator somewhat unique and/or creepy. He's either got some pseudo-psionic skill that lets him see "eddies in the fabric of the space-time continuum", or he's got a cyberpunkesque neural-computer implant -- along with a high computer skill rating, the team's hacker.
 
Hello spank,

Your suggestions have merit with the exception time in jump space or jump duration. Jump duration according to canon is 168 hours plus or minus 10%, regardless of being calculated by the ships computer or the astrogator.

Originally posted by spank:
Kaladorn hit the nail fairly well on the head, without a astrogator getting to a planet would consist of pointing a ship either at the planet or where you guess the planet will be, and correcting every few hours until you get there. Of course a computer could handle that, given suficent information, but a person is usually more intuitive. A good example is catching a ball. That requires excessive amounts of calculation, but a person can just do it.

It would be nice if the skill of the astrogator was actual reflected in the exit of the ship from jumpspace. Say for example {in T20}a skilled astrogator has time to plot a jump, when he roles for the jump each 2 points He succedes by a} decreases the time in j-space by 4 hours, b} reduces the feul required by 1%, or c} improves the exit vector of the ship.

Just a thought
 
I think the Astrogator is absolutely essential. You see, sooner or later, everyone mis-jumps, and having an astrogator to blame/beat up/ignore/scream at is so much more fulfilling for the rest of the crew than a computer.


i mean, when you kick a computer, all you get is a sore foot
file_23.gif


Oh, and originally you said
eddies in the fabric of the space-time continuum
.. so what is Eddie doing ther, and how did he get in to begin with? :D
 
Originally posted by Rotters:

Oh, and originally you said </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> eddies in the fabric of the space-time continuum
.. so what is Eddie doing there, and how did he get in to begin with? :D </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I admit that my post had a not-so-hidden psycho-jungian experiment to see how many posts it would take before someone took the bait. Now, after that Chesterfield!
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> One must not forget than in Traveller, computers aren`t *that* much trusted.
I don't think there's any reason for that. Today, in 2003, computers can be a little unreliable, and some people don't fully trust them, but they've only been around 50 years. Traveller is set 3500 years in the future. What tech have we got that's been refined for 3500+ years? The wheel? </font>[/QUOTE]That's a very interesting point you made there.

And several posts here similar to it have helped build a maybe-useful framework to think about starship operations. Here it is.

Astrogators are required to assist in ship operations, dependent upon (1) the relative immaturity of the ship's technology and (2) legal considerations of the star systems being visited.

Mr. Boulton's post made me glance at the Traveller TL table to get an idea as to what tech we basically allow to function unsupervised (without constant operational supervision and cursings). Though it looks like a mixed bag (home appliances are trusted, but power generation is always overseen by humans at the powerco), it appears that one might be able to say that more or less everything up to TL3 (and maybe early industrial) is trusted rather implicitly.

SO, perhaps one side-effect of 'technology' is the ability for devices lower down on the tech tree to function without human supervision. It could be handwaved that the legal code of said TL is part of the 'infrastructure' of that TL, so insurance is not a problem.

So we, at TL8 or so, are perfectly comfortable allowing devices approx. at half TL to operate autonomously.

As a rule, then, if one assumes the better of TL/2 or TL minus 4 for tech autonomy, what emerges?

Extrapolating to the Traveller Universe, a TL-C society might feel fine with TL-8 devices functioning without human supervision. So insystem freighters and liners require no crew, functionally and legally. All computer-embedded systems reconfigure, patch, failover, recover, and even recode themselves without needing human promptings. And a TL-F society would be fine with TL-B automation. That's the Jump-2 drive, isn't it? So J1 and J2 liners can jump between TL-F worlds with no crew, with no legal entanglements with the worlds' port authorities .

And by TL-G, TL-C technology -- e.g. Artificial Intelligence -- is trustworthy enough to function autonomously.

Hmmmm, not a bad mechanic.
 
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