What would you do for colony surveys?

[Tellon]

I am curious as far as "equipment" for a planetary system exploration

so -- and remember, this is TL A stuff were dealing with here, and no handwavium Thruster Plates or Anti-Grav stuff .. lol --

I have my main "transport" -- a 5000 dTon "Transport" - which carries ...

100 dTon "System scout" -- to travel thru the system and "map" it
100 dTon "Fuel SKimmer" -- all those Fusion Reactors/Rockets get thirsty
5 dTon Walker -- to travel on the planets surfaces and see about colony locations
200? dTon "Planetary Lander" -- to shuttle the walker back & forth

Plus ...

I am figuring on satillites (communication + weather), beacon systems for possible low-port locations + colony locations

I also figure a couple of "modules" for habitation, fuel, lab space, communication -- etc for a "field office" for the scientists and scouts to get working on the main world to use as a "central base" kinda setting

But -- What else am I missing? -- What would you guys do?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

MedLabs, ELows.

Lots of stuff to deal with the inevitable traumas and weird life form interactions, diseases and such. You can't ship them home...

 

[BlackBat242]

A pair (or a trio) of medium-lift VTOL aircraft (AW101 Merlin/Boeing CV-22 Osprey/Aliens combat landing craft) for all those places the walker can't travel (across the Grand Canyon/Amazon River/etc).

 

[Tellon]

Yeah -- my "lander" I am thinking of is prob gonna be a 100 dTon VTOL Shuttle -- using HRF or AZHRAE -- haven't decided yet (cause the AF cuts the planets G's by 1/2 -- so it's well worth it). The 400 dTon version was just too big for what I needed ..

I figure on the big Transport -- have a section for decom and quarantine areas -- basically specializaed sickbays for those odd diseases and lifeforms...but that can be done on the Shuttle -- say a sickbay/quarantine --

I know on the scout, I have several laboratories -- for geological & biological "studies" .. lol

Since a "burnt patch of dirt": can be regarded as a Spaceport on some backwater worlds -- it will be easy to create one .. lol. The "modules" will take some time -- so obviously it would be a lil while before a "real" spaceport can be started --

But for a "colony"

a Commo Tower, Habitation modules, Energy Modules, Life Support, Hydroponics, etc will need to be either taken WITH -- or the people would just dismantle the "transport" and use the stuff from the ship.

EDIT:

I wonder if I should tweak my 5000 dTon Transport as Modular -- and thus be able to carry the modules for the "survey" -- instead of taking up Cargo Hold/Flight Bay space. (even though the modules *might* take up say 1000 dTons)

 

[Whipsnade]

Tellon,

Your question is so broad as to be unanswerable. There are so many types of colonies each of which requires different types of surveys each of which will require different equipment in turn.

What is the colony for? Resource extraction? Agricultural production? Industrial production? Permanent habitation? A mixture of all four? Will it be self sufficient? Will it be allowed to be self sufficient?

Decide on what the colony is meant to be first. That will tell you what your survey teams need to do and knowing what they need to do will tell you what equipment they need to bring.

There's one thing which can be said from the first however. They won't be using walkers. Japanese cartoon show aside, the unsuitability of those twee toys for nearly every purpose be it military or civilian means no survey team will waste shipping space by bringing walker along unless the situation demands it; i.e. very exotic atmospheres, etc.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Malinor]

You could follow modern thinking for future colonies on the Moon or Mars, and include an automated furnace or kiln capable of producing bricks or breeze-blocks using local resources, be they clay or regolith. It would be far cheaper and take up less valuable space aboard transport and shuttle than hauling the bulk of construction materials needed for building your colony with you.

 

[Tellon]

There are so many types of colonies each of which requires different types of surveys each of which will require different equipment in turn.

What is the colony for? Resource extraction? Agricultural production? Industrial production? Permanent habitation? A mixture of all four? Will it be self sufficient? Will it be allowed to be self sufficient?

Decide on what the colony is meant to be first. That will tell you what your survey teams need to do and knowing what they need to do will tell you what equipment they need to bring.

There's one thing which can be said from the first however. They won't be using walkers. Japanese cartoon show aside, the unsuitability of those twee toys for nearly every purpose be it military or civilian means no survey team will waste shipping space by bringing walker along unless the situation demands it; i.e. very exotic atmospheres, etc.

ok. Maybe I needed to make it more specific to a 1st arrival on a system that is "wild" and has no data on it.

A) Since it's going to be 1st arrival -- doing the survey even with a scout will take at least 1 yr for a decently detailed survey. Thus -- mining possibilities in an asteroid field -- also possible "spaceport" locations/Colony locations -- if the mainworld is even capable of doing agriculture, or if Hydroponics is the ONLY way to go.

Self Sufficient - lol, since Interstellar Travel is STL -- the times to get from system A to system B -- takes multiple decades -- so obviously the "colony" if any will have to be self-sufficient.

So I think a mixture of the 4 -- to give the survey project enough time and data to make solid judgement calls.

B) I figure as a survey team will quickly see if the system has Gas Giants or Asteroid fields -- a Traveller version of say a Hubble telescope to do system "scanning" while the Survey team is still out at say 4000 AU's out -- thus the team can have an idea of what they might run into before they actually "arrive" in-system. Thus with some initial data, then the scout launches to the prospective planets and starts a more in depth survey -- which IMHO should take 1 yr minimum for solid data.

C) What is wrong with walkers? Remember -- there is no anti-grav in MTU, thus what am I gonna use -- "air-cushion" -- wouldn't work on a vacuum world .. lol. How about a speeder or air-raft? .. nope -- anti-grav doesn't exist on MTU ... What about an Airship, or a Helo, or a Parawig? -- Vacuum worlds ... it gets ugly ... also -- "Alien atmospheres" such as Mars or Venus or Titan, "air-dependant vehicles" just dont get any respect; Which is why I use a sealed atmosphere walker --

-- Also -- remember how the surface of the moon wasn't known about until we actually landed on it ... Thus -- instead of a moon-buggy -- why not a walker? And we did bring back moon rocks for mineral tests -- thus another reason why we go onto the surface.

Or How about the Mars Rover? -- we have survey equipment in orbit to scan the surface -- yet, we are there ON the surface anyways .. thus, once again -- we have a *reason* why were ON the surface ...

 

[Zutroi]

I'm with Whipsnade on this... with a broad-enough track, a tracked vehicle is going to work on just about any surface from desert sand to loose powder snow.

Even without the OP's wish to avoid the 'handwavium' of grav-vehicles, with a strong enough wind even they become useless...

 

[Tellon]

I'm with Whipsnade on this... with a broad-enough track, a tracked vehicle is going to work on just about any surface from desert sand to loose powder snow.

Even without the OP's wish to avoid the 'handwavium' of grav-vehicles, with a strong enough wind even they become useless...

a tracked vehicle huh? ...(totally forgot about those things .. thx )

I'll see if a 5 dTon "APC" is doable for a survey team + equipment -- should be IMO.

 

[BlackBat242]

The British Scorpion light tank has a lower ground pressure (weight per unit of area of track in contact with the ground) than the average person... in the Falklands 1982 they crossed bogs the local guides wouldn't walk across "because they'd sink".

Related vehicles using the same (or similar) hull include:

* FV102 Striker anti-tank guided weapon carrier
* FV103 Spartan armoured personnel carrier
* FV104 Samaritan armoured ambulance
* FV105 Sultan command post vehicle
* FV106 Samson armoured recovery vehicle

 

[Tellon]

cool -- thx ..

I kept everything the same between the Walker & APC -- same hull, computers, Commo, engine, etc .. The only difference was the slightly larger tranny the APC needs and the heavier suspension the APC needs -- so everything aside, the differences came to ...

less cargo space -- the APC has .5 kl left, the Walker has 2 -- not much -- but for rock samples, and Vac Suits and science equipment -- that space is crucial.

The APC is FAST -- but hey, the PNR is doing a steady 8 MW -- like 4x as fast as the Walker (using cross country speeds). So the APC will cover a LOT more area.

----

Probable ideas:

1) take the 2x St Comps out -- that will give me plenty of room for equipment, Vac Suits, "Samples", etc ... (& I will need sensors downgraded to 30km versions)
2) Cut 1 MW on the engine and 3 days on the F.cons to save say 4 kl for extra space ..

if I do both -- it will be around an extra 16 kl -- that should be plenty for eq/samples

 

[Mithras]

Sounds like Tellon could fill his hold with these! Scorpion variants.
Also: where are the modular cutters?? You can make so many things out of cutter modules

The British Scorpion light tank has a lower ground pressure (weight per unit of area of track in contact with the ground) than the average person... in the Falklands 1982 they crossed bogs the local guides wouldn't walk across "because they'd sink".

Related vehicles using the same (or similar) hull include:

* FV102 Striker anti-tank guided weapon carrier
* FV103 Spartan armoured personnel carrier
* FV104 Samaritan armoured ambulance
* FV105 Sultan command post vehicle
* FV106 Samson armoured recovery vehicle

 

[Mithras]

Tellon, what are you using to build these vehicles if I might ask? It sounds like fun.

I kept everything the same between the Walker & APC -- same hull, computers, Commo, engine, etc .. The only difference was the slightly larger tranny the APC needs and the heavier suspension the APC needs -- so everything aside, the differences came to ...

 

[Tellon]

I am "generally" sticking to straight TNE stuff --

BUT

I use the alternate materials -- geez, forgot who wrote it all those years ago -- but the article was absolutely amazing in going over some very good materials thru TL 13 iirc.

I really cut down on the engine, took out the comps, my sensors are now down to 30km versions -- so I gave myself plenty of space -- even though the APC is not "fast" -- but I dont need speed -- as it's for exploration. Also, it's not for combat -- so there is no added weight there -- even though I easily could have put on a missile rack, or a VRF Guass (and then add a seat for the gunner)

so ... and to note -- this APC is TL 9/10 stuff -- (since this isn't a combat version which would use TL 12 computers/sensors -- due to my expanded TL's House rules I use.)

For the hull -- using TL 10 Ceramic Matrix Composite (very light-weight + cheap) 1 cm
standard suspension, tranny, control systems, 5x open crewstations, IGS for Nav Aid, for sensors -- Laser, Maser, PEMS, Ladar. The engine is a PNF, typical vehicle life support w/ airlock,

23.5 kl for "cargo/equipment" --

so I have it at 72.5 km/hr road; 51 km/hr off-road
not bad -- since these are exploration vehicles, and not speedsters .. lol

* So this APC is for small scale site-checking -- thus -- the scout details a planet/moon, finds good locations -- then the lander takes the APC's (the Lander has room for 2 of these) to the location so they can explore for a day to really detail the site and see if it's a profitable location for mining or a colony. So in 8 hrs -- several passes by both APC's will go over the site and take rock/soil samples, biological/life tests, etc. -- so the time that the APC's are on the ground -- it's very hectic and has to be well planned and thought out.

---

The Walkers are generally the same way -- just with a lighter weight Suspension -- the surface area for them is nasty .. and so I am relegated to very small sensor antennas -- which it has (being 30 km versions). The crewstations are cramped compared to the APC's (which use open crews)

So the only real difference between the APC and walker is the speed -- as the speed of a walker is easily 1/4th of an APC -- so the walker is down to 18 km for road & offroad -- as walkers, they are same for speed. So that for me kinda killed it for the walkers sadly -- If I would have kept the 8 MW PNF -- the walker would easily have out-did the APC in terms of coverage, but the cargo space/equipment space would have been not worth it realistaccly IMO. BUT< if one doesn't "mind" a small cargo hold -- then the 8 MW PNF can really make the walker worth it (as that is the main trade-off one faces)

*as far as speed with that big PNF? .. 127 km/hr ... 2.5 times as fast as the APC -- but like I said -- small cargo space.

 

[Tellon]

Sounds like Tellon could fill his hold with these! Scorpion variants.
Also: where are the modular cutters?? You can make so many things out of cutter modules

Modular Cutters?

I aint sure I could make one -- The Lander I use is a AF VTOL "shuttle" that uses an AZHRAE for thrust -- so imagine a BIG Concord being used as a Shuttle sending up satillites, people, cargo -- or taking them down to the surface .. so it's a workhorse vehicle for the exploration mission. (Since the AZHRAE is an air-breather, most of the time, I am using it is HRF mode only -- which means it cuts off the air-intakes, and uses the rocket engine to get it out to LEO)

The APC's fit into Hangers inside -- thus the ability to do repairs and maintainance as well on them.

I could try to work some magic & make some modules -- so we'll see.

 

[Mithras]

Ah, I keep forgetting your not using grav tech. I won't show my ignorance of FF&S and TNE by asking what AZHRAE might be!

Modular Cutters?

I aint sure I could make one -- The Lander I use is a AF VTOL "shuttle" that uses an AZHRAE for thrust -- so imagine a BIG Concord being used as a Shuttle sending up satillites, people, cargo -- or taking them down to the surface .. so it's a workhorse vehicle for the exploration mission. (Since the AZHRAE is an air-breather, most of the time, I am using it is HRF mode only -- which means it cuts off the air-intakes, and uses the rocket engine to get it out to LEO)

The APC's fit into Hangers inside -- thus the ability to do repairs and maintainance as well on them.

I could try to work some magic & make some modules -- so we'll see.

 

[Tellon]

Ah, I keep forgetting your not using grav tech. I won't show my ignorance of FF&S and TNE by asking what AZHRAE might be!

LOL -- yeah -- I am one of those crazy "hard-sci" traveller guys ..

The AZHRAE (Advanced Zero to Hypersonic Regime Air-breathing Engine) -- a thing of beauty for TL 8 vehicles .. -- the F.cons is just a royal pain in the rear, where your generally refuelling each trip (surface to orbit) ya make -- as you "dead stick" it on the way down to the surface just like the Shuttle.

Turbo-jet -- uses standard HCD (Jet fuel) -- make sure ya use an afterburner .. lol
Ram-jet -- uses HCD
Rocket -- uses HRF (Hydrogen Rocket Fuel -- I am thinking it is very close to Liq Hyd .. but at .3 tons/kl -- it's 4x as heavy as the fuel of choice for traveller.)

and obviously with manned missions -- I aint gonna use Solid rocket Fuel (SRF) -- I did look at LRF (LOX + Liq Hyd) -- but the F.cons is just way too high for what I need the Lander to do -- which is why I stuck with an AZHRAE

 

[Morninman]

I would guess that a STL, Tech A survey would already have a pretty good idea of the system's layout courtesy of wide-baseline telescopes in the home system. Presumably the survey mission itself is intended to evaluate the suitability of an already identified garden world as well as identify any potential resources elsewhere in the system.

1. During approach the ship will launch a number of unmanned drones to further refine system details using networked sensors. Time-stamped data from the probes will be beamed back to the mothership for analysis using interferometry.

2. During final approach and deceleration into the system the mothership will be heading for the garden world while probes are sent swinging around the fringes and to any interesting planets. The course of the probes would be dependant on their power source- long duration remotes could be careening around the sytem for decades, constantly sending new data to the mothership.

3. Mothership goes into orbit around the target garden world and begins mapping with any available sensors. Launching a constellation of cheap can-sats would provide full coverage of the target planet as well as allowing networked communication with probes elsewhere in the system. With a full sensor suite including ground-penetrating radar a pretty detailed model of the target could be built up in a month or two. Additional probes can handle mapping of any moons in orbit.

4. With the geological and meteorological survey well underway it's time to *carefully* begin surveying the planet's ecology and biology by remote. I think the best tool for this would be aerial probes with a payload suspended under a fusion powered hot air balloon. They could drift around the planet for months or years collecting airborne particulate samples and touching down anywhere that looked interesting for a closer look.

5. Once the aerial probes have deemed the surface at least relatively safe it's time to drop some wheeled remotes in areas that look suitable for a surface outpost. A relatively clear area with access to water (for purification into fuel and life support) would be a concern, followed by the biological safety of the area- no large motile lifeforms, no noticeable toxins, no dangerous biological traces.

6. Finally, after all that, you move the wheeled probes away from the landing zone and send down a lander. Then start exposing cell cultures and lab animals to the environment under tight biological controls. If that looks good use the remotes to start bringing in specimens to the lander, again under full biosecurity. Finally, send someone out in a full P-suit to collect samples. Slow, careful, and cautious is the way to go.

7. Once the relative safety of the landing zone is assured unload a fuel cracker and your survey rover. Start spiralling outward from your landing site collecting samples.

8. Set up a small, unsealed hab unit for terrestrial lab animals, maintaining full biological isolation for humans. Provide the test animals with known-safe food and monitor any developments. After an appropriate time, move samples of native animal life into the hab with an appropriate food supply. If nothing biological jumps from one to the other expose the terrestrial animals to native foodstuffs. See if they'll eat the native food and how they react to it. Repeat for a full native year.

9. Call a staff meeting and decide who gets to be the first human to breathe native air. Heh.

All of this is based on the idea that the mothership brings everything it needs except fuel and water for the entire duration of the survey. Volitiles can always be harvested from a lifeless asteroid and are nice to have, but the party shouldn't plan on having any re-supply beyond that.

 

[Tellon]

I would guess that a STL, Tech A survey would already have a pretty good idea of the system's layout courtesy of wide-baseline telescopes in the home system. Presumably the survey mission itself is intended to evaluate the suitability of an already identified garden world as well as identify any potential resources elsewhere in the system..

True -- still having to design the "telescope" & robotic probes the survey would use. Having to use Hubble as my template ... (not a bad template ..lol)

1. During approach the ship will launch a number of unmanned drones to further refine system details using networked sensors. Time-stamped data from the probes will be beamed back to the mothership for analysis using interferometry.

2. During final approach and deceleration into the system the mothership will be heading for the garden world while probes are sent swinging around the fringes and to any interesting planets. The course of the probes would be dependant on their power source- long duration remotes could be careening around the sytem for decades, constantly sending new data to the mothership.

3. Mothership goes into orbit around the target garden world and begins mapping with any available sensors. Launching a constellation of cheap can-sats would provide full coverage of the target planet as well as allowing networked communication with probes elsewhere in the system. With a full sensor suite including ground-penetrating radar a pretty detailed model of the target could be built up in a month or two. Additional probes can handle mapping of any moons in orbit.

4. With the geological and meteorological survey well underway it's time to *carefully* begin surveying the planet's ecology and biology by remote. I think the best tool for this would be aerial probes with a payload suspended under a fusion powered hot air balloon. They could drift around the planet for months or years collecting airborne particulate samples and touching down anywhere that looked interesting for a closer look.

5. Once the aerial probes have deemed the surface at least relatively safe it's time to drop some wheeled remotes in areas that look suitable for a surface outpost. A relatively clear area with access to water (for purification into fuel and life support) would be a concern, followed by the biological safety of the area- no large motile lifeforms, no noticeable toxins, no dangerous biological traces.

6. Finally, after all that, you move the wheeled probes away from the landing zone and send down a lander. Then start exposing cell cultures and lab animals to the environment under tight biological controls. If that looks good use the remotes to start bringing in specimens to the lander, again under full biosecurity. Finally, send someone out in a full P-suit to collect samples. Slow, careful, and cautious is the way to go.

7. Once the relative safety of the landing zone is assured unload a fuel cracker and your survey rover. Start spiralling outward from your landing site collecting samples.

8. Set up a small, unsealed hab unit for terrestrial lab animals, maintaining full biological isolation for humans. Provide the test animals with known-safe food and monitor any developments. After an appropriate time, move samples of native animal life into the hab with an appropriate food supply. If nothing biological jumps from one to the other expose the terrestrial animals to native foodstuffs. See if they'll eat the native food and how they react to it. Repeat for a full native year.

9. Call a staff meeting and decide who gets to be the first human to breathe native air. Heh.

All of this is based on the idea that the mothership brings everything it needs except fuel and water for the entire duration of the survey. Volitiles can always be harvested from a lifeless asteroid and are nice to have, but the party shouldn't plan on having any re-supply beyond that.

Awesome stuff and nice details -- Thx for the info -- Obviously with loads of survey-bots, it will help immensely -- now a job to design them .. lol

at least Hard-Times and Vampire Fleets and several really well made player additions/houserules/mods will make for some cool bots.

 

[Morninman]

Awesome stuff and nice details -- Thx for the info -- Obviously with loads of survey-bots, it will help immensely -- now a job to design them .. lol

at least Hard-Times and Vampire Fleets and several really well made player additions/houserules/mods will make for some cool bots.

I've always wanted to run a colonization campaign, so I've given a little thought to how it would be done. As the above points out I think a lot of the initial survey work will be mind-numbingly boring, at least from a player perspective, because of the need for biological security.

On the other hand, If YTU has a well-developed spacer culture I suspect terrestrial colonization will be a lot easier. While the survey crew is busy on the garden world there could be an entirely separate development effort going on in open space. The home system's telescopes would probably be capable of identifying the presence of any moons or asteroids in the target system, and observations on the way in could identify the best sites for space industries.

Using that approach the mothership would target a small moon or large asteroid for resource extraction while the smaller survey ship(s) peels off for the garden world. By the time the biosphere go/no go decision for the planet is made the spacers could be well on their way to having a self-supporting habitat up and running.

And if the planet's biosphere isn't compatible with colonization they'll have plenty of rocks ready for the sterilization and re-cultivation phase. Heh.