What was wrong with CT?

[womble]

Dynamo sed:

The Strength of an elephant in classic Traveller

Probably somewhere around J or K in hex.

Why would yo need to roll that in character creation?

As far as range goes a 2-12 limit is pretty wide and varied when you compare it to a general population. If you must go over that level,... do it its not like Hex stops at E.

J or K is not hex. Hex stops at F if you want to keep all stats single digit, which is one of the setting-settings that makes Traveller different.

The game is (or, at least, should not in my opinion) be just about character generation.

You're right, 11 (or even 16) rating levels for human capability isn't too granular. A lot of popular and fun game systems make do with 5 or 6.

I think the problem is that there's no *definition* of what a point extra of, e.g. strength actually represents. Is "J" (properly 12h or 13h, depending on whether you include 'i') "As much stronger than F and 11 is than 7" at which point you're looking at an elephant's strength being far higher, or is each point a doubling of lift capacity? Or are we looking at "10 = pony, 11 = horse, 12 = bear, 13 = elephant" type explicit progression.

 

[Scarecrow]

The Hexadecimal system used to drive me nuts. To this day I can't get my head round it.

Also characters being killed during charcater creation. I never understood the point.

It's a bit dated now too but that's to be expected really.

Other than that CT is my favourite version - mainly because ship design was nice and simple - the way it ought to be =)

Crow

 

[Dynamo]

J or K is not hex. Hex stops at F if you want to keep all stats single digit, which is one of the setting-settings that makes Traveller different.

Well yes, if you only have books 0-3 you are correct. You also can't have any ship over 1000 tons either. If you work with it and other CT cannon (like high guard where the Tonnage code goes up from 0 to Y) its not a stretch for a stat to go up to J or K.
As for Character Death
PG 10 Book 1 Survival - Optional Rule If the referee or player so indicates prior to character generation then a failure of a survival roll can be converted to an injury the character is not dead but instead is injured, and leaves the service (after recovery) having served only two years of the four year term.

 

[FlightCommanderSolitude]

Strictly speaking, hex only goes up to F; 16 is 10. Traveller's single-digit system can't really be called hex. The distinction is all pedantic hoo-ha of course.



As for character creation, including the UPP and the possibility of death/injury during the process, I still think CT has the most interesting method for generating characters. I like the UPP; I like term sequence; I even like the survival roll, I just wish it wasn't so harsh for scouts!

 

[Dynamo]

Well ok, I admit that, but rules wise.. just adjust it up if you need to.

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by womble:
I think the problem is that there's no *definition* of what a point extra of, e.g. strength actually represents. Is "J" (properly 12h or 13h, depending on whether you include 'i') "As much stronger than F and 11 is than 7" at which point you're looking at an elephant's strength being far higher, or is each point a doubling of lift capacity? Or are we looking at "10 = pony, 11 = horse, 12 = bear, 13 = elephant" type explicit progression.

Actually MT (at least) does explicitly tie Str characteristic to carrying/lifting capacity in a linear fashion (Str x 1kg = unencumbered load, Str x 10kg = max. carrying capacity, Str x 20kg = max. lift -- or something like that), and I think CT did so as well, but it was always presented as more rule-of-thumb than hard-and-fast measurement and I suspect most players tended to ignore it.

Aside: it's because of measurements like this (and other examples such as End limiting non-fatiguing melee blows and/or hours without sleep, Int+Edu as total skill-points cap, Soc determining cost of living, etc.) based on full characteristic values that I don't mind dividing characteristic/5 to determine task DMs -- characteristics are used for much more than just determining tasks, and while Str 7 vs Str 6 might not help you any on a task it does give other (non-task) benefits.

 

[Gallowglass]

Originally posted by T. Foster:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by womble:
I think the problem is that there's no *definition* of what a point extra of, e.g. strength actually represents. Is "J" (properly 12h or 13h, depending on whether you include 'i') "As much stronger than F and 11 is than 7" at which point you're looking at an elephant's strength being far higher, or is each point a doubling of lift capacity? Or are we looking at "10 = pony, 11 = horse, 12 = bear, 13 = elephant" type explicit progression.

Actually MT (at least) does explicitly tie Str characteristic to carrying/lifting capacity in a linear fashion (Str x 1kg = unencumbered load, Str x 10kg = max. carrying capacity, Str x 20kg = max. lift -- or something like that), and I think CT did so as well, but it was always presented as more rule-of-thumb than hard-and-fast measurement and I suspect most players tended to ignore it.

Aside: it's because of measurements like this (and other examples such as End limiting non-fatiguing melee blows and/or hours without sleep, Int+Edu as total skill-points cap, Soc determining cost of living, etc.) based on full characteristic values that I don't mind dividing characteristic/5 to determine task DMs -- characteristics are used for much more than just determining tasks, and while Str 7 vs Str 6 might not help you any on a task it does give other (non-task) benefits. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm at work, but didn't the definitions of loads / carrying capacity in CT: Traveller Book/Starter Traveller if not LBB's - I was re-reading my copy of teh Traveller Book recently and I'm sure I remember something about that ("The Use of Characteristics" or something)...

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

In the discussion of character generation detail and the death of characters, I believe it was game balance for the lethality of staying in too long.

If you stayed in a long time (continued generating a character) the resulting character was very formitable. The two things that balanced this were the chance of death and the effects of aging. It gave the player a choice of having a good character alive or trying to push it and have an excellent character with the inherant danger of destroying them.

Scouts...com'on! a good chance of getting a scout courior free and paid for to travel around the known and unknown stars with that could refuel anywhere. That's worth taking a risk for!

Character generation is a game within a game and risking the odds for higher payoffs is always part of a good game.

Lord Iron Wolf

 

[Ron]

Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf:
[...]
Character generation is a game within a game and risking the odds for higher payoffs is always part of a good game.

Lord Iron Wolf

Yeah! You nailed it.

 

[Traveller]

Originally posted by womble:
J or K is not hex. Hex stops at F if you want to keep all stats single digit, which is one of the setting-settings that makes Traveller different.

From Alien Module 1: Aslan, page 9 (emphasis by me)
Characteristics should be recorded in modified hexadecimal notation (where digits above 9 are written as letters) in the same manner as basic Traveller. Hexadecimal notation is modified because normally hexadecimal notation reaches only to F (15). It is modified to allow inclusion of G (16).

Marc already knew that G wasn't true hexadecimal, as shown in the quote above (Aslan was partly written by him). But what difference does the modification to hexadecimal notation make? One of the things that provides the biggest charm for Traveller is its unique method of noting the attributes.

Originally posted by FlightCommanderSolitude:
Strictly speaking, hex only goes up to F; 16 is 10. Traveller's single-digit system can't really be called hex. The distinction is all pedantic hoo-ha of course.

As the quote I tossed out shows, Marc called it "modified", so he knew. I do agree though with your assessment about the distinction.

Originally posted by Dynamo:
Well ok, I admit that, but rules wise.. just adjust it up if you need to.

Marc did in fact adjust the scale for the aliens, so I don't see any reason why it can't be done for the critters.

Now, in regards to what is wrong with LBB Traveller, the answer is very simple: they revised it.

Don't misunderstand me please. Revisions are a necessary evil in this business, but when the revisions make the basic product far more difficult to play than the original it makes one wonder whether it was a good idea to revise at all. Owning the first four editions of Traveller gives one a new perspective on things. It seems that the amount of errata in each of them increases proportionately to its edition. And some of the gaffes make portions of the games unplayable.

To me, the endless cycles of revision and errata are what's wrong with Traveller. Let's hope that T5 gets it right this time so the cycle can be broken.

 

[Traveller]

Originally posted by Takei:
Bloody Hell he's made it even shorter! Last time I looked at Andy's CT Ultra-Lite it was 2.5 pages. Giving my age away here, but I remember reading Andy's articles in White Dwarf and his writing has always been good.

I got bored and changed the look of his Classic Traveller Ultralite rules for my personal copy. It's down to 1 statement size (5.5" x 8.5") piece of paper perfect to fit into a LBB.

I have it stored on one of my webspaces (link not provided to avoid copyright issues).

 

[Bill Coffin]

Personally, I don't think there's much wrong with Classic Traveller at all. The only thing I really have an issue with is the game's layout; the rules are often scattered over a wide area and that causes excess page-flipping. But once you get used ot that, it's not such a big deal.

Sure, CT has some wonky rules -- what sticks out to me the most is how personal combat, vehicular combat and starship combat don't click together at all. But you know what? We always just came up with a patch on the fly that worked out just fine. That's what works best about CT, really, that it engenders a freewheeling, do-it-yourself spirit that gives you full license to modify rules, make up world info, and expand on any part of the game. Other games may say you can do that, but they don't really mean it. If they did, then they wouldn't dedicate half the book and all of the supplements to overdeveloping the game setting and promoting some big storyline you're supposed to get in step with.

CT just lays out a bunch of rules and ideas, pats you on the shoulder and says, "go play." That, my friends, is why I still like playing with this game 20+ years later. And any game that can remain fun for me this long proves to me that while it might have its blemishes, they are not so bad that they prevent the game from doing the job it was designed for, and doing it admirably.

 

[kaladorn]

The one thing missing from CT was consistency. I mean that there were a lot of numbers to keep track of (7+ for this, 8+ for that, etc). The one thing MT provided that was a significant upgrade was an easy and consistent task system (though perhaps separating task levels by 2-3 might have been better than 4). This made defining tasks easy and you didn't have to remember exactly what you needed to roll, just think about the task.

CT + Adv Career Resolution + Tasks. That's about what I play now.

T.

 

[Takei]

Originally posted by Strephon Alkhalikoi:
I got bored and changed the look of his Classic Traveller Ultralite rules for my personal copy. It's down to 1 statement size (5.5" x 8.5") piece of paper perfect to fit into a LBB.

I have it stored on one of my webspaces (link not provided to avoid copyright issues).

Very CT I must say

Could possibly mail me the link?
bendallseatyahoodotcodotuk

 

[Traveller]

It's not just the size, but the layout as well.

You've got mail (assuming of course I got your email addy right).

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Scarecrow:
The Hexadecimal system used to drive me nuts. To this day I can't get my head round it.

Crow, I've seen the rendering on your website, OUTSTANDING. And yet almost every fancy graphics package has colour handling using #00-FF... quite clearly hex. Something just seems wrong here... ?

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf:
If you stayed in a long time (continued generating a character) the resulting character was very formitable. The two things that balanced this were the chance of death and the effects of aging.

Now there is an axe to grind. Aging.... I've been looking at it and haven't done the statistical analysis (argh), but I think most characters with a 7 UPP wouln't last to 80, 90, 120 etc. I thought those with Vilani blood were supposed to be long lived? You wouldn't know it with the aging rolls in CT/MT. By the time you get to 50, you're quite likely to be in bad shape. By the time you hit 60 or 65, you might well be on death's door.

Does this reflect the lifespans the game seem to suggest?

And for anagathics, do you really mean to tell me that my 08 Admiral is going to have trouble finding them, or my First Minister, or better yet, my senior Doctor? Hmmmm.

I understand the curb these are supposed to represent on characters, but they don't mesh too well with some of the background.

 

[Traveller]

I can understand your thoughts regarding the play balance mechanics not meshing well with the background, but at the time of its writing, Basic Traveller (Books 1-3) had NO background material. When Mercenary was released, we had our first hints of the Imperium, a trend which continued in the subsequent books, several of the supplements, and the adventures. Basic Traveller when it was written was intended to be setting independent. Deluxe Traveller, when released, tossed in The Imperial Fringe and a map of the Spinward Marches, which effectively cemented the Imperium's position as the default Traveller setting. But even the presence of a default setting doesn't preclude anyone from using their own settings if they take the time to create them. This applies whether you have Basic, Deluxe, The Traveller Book, or Starter.

 

[jchurchill]

Fantasy worlds are easy to create,

Huh?

anyone can fall back upon our own medieval period, especially with all the support material, movies, and live recreation events,

Oh, you mean bad fantasy settings.
===============================================
snort, snort, snicker, snicker.......

touche.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

It's kinda funny to note that there's this thread here that's asking 'What was wrong with CT?' and at the same time there's another thread on the CT board asking 'why do we love CT?'.

I wonder if the same things crop up on both boards