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What Tier 4 countries could rise to Tier 3?

Stop the presses - over in Starships and Trade, you state "There are two nations that managed to gain an extra zero in the ECS, resulting in nearly 30 fold population growth, which is plainly ridiculous."


So why is it that you get to revise canon when you want, and no one else is allowed an opinion on the matter?

I have much better things do to than argue this. I doubt anyone else is reading this thread anyway, and I won't be checking it again.
 
Yes, but most other nations don't have a line about the owning nation not launching a ship until 40 years after them (although Nigeria has a clear writeup stating it has never built a starship).

Canada doesn't really need a large spacefleet, with an offworld population of a few thousand (about 2,500 on Godfrey*, 2,000 on Doris**, 300 on Achilles, and maybe a few dozen can/dome outposts at DM+19 5116 and DM +15 4733***) it's really unnecessary. Indeed, the CA notes Canada is too poor to mount a full colonial effort and handed over exploitation to a few Corporations, and the population is mainly a small body of corporate workers (for Acadian Light Metals, North West and Interstellar, Maple Leaf DiversiChem, and Mendlesohn Fibre-Composites) whose main business is exporting Petroleum to the outer Chinese Arm. The population isn't permanent, and pulls a tour of duty for a few years and come home rich.

The Yorks do fine, as will the three spaceplanes on Doris for personnel lifts


* "Canadian", in fact Solar Shipping, a Canadian registered concern.
** Yes, in the CA the population is roughly 2,000.
*** They're now completely pointless, the Hudson and the 2 Yorks don't need refuelling there
 
Stop the presses - over in Starships and Trade, you state "There are two nations that managed to gain an extra zero in the ECS, resulting in nearly 30 fold population growth, which is plainly ridiculous."


So why is it that you get to revise canon when you want, and no one else is allowed an opinion on the matter?

I have much better things do to than argue this. I doubt anyone else is reading this thread anyway, and I won't be checking it again.

Typo errors, especially numbers not fitting the text, is one thing (adding a zero is the most common error in typing out long numbers, hence why SI is so useful).

I've no dramas if you want to revise IYC universe...
 
>I have much better things do to than argue this. I doubt anyone else is reading this thread anyway, and I won't be checking it again

Im reading it but I hate these kind of petty nitpicking arguments so usually skip over them. this time however Im sufficiently annoyed to drop in my 2c

>which is plainly ridiculous

yep, everything is ridiculous after a major (if slow) nuke throwing contest like twighlight 2000 was supposed to be ..... I mean everyone knows people only emigrate in waves following natural disasters .... of course they'd sit and glow following a manmade nuclear tragedy rather than move to (potentailly) relatively undamaged environments ..... our theoretical survivors wouldnt want to upset extrapolations of populations based on pre-nuke levels !

lets see .... after 200 years Australia's population has gone from an estimated 300K aborigines to about 20 million .... a ridiculous increase but not 30x ...... New Zealand has gone from about 100K to nearly 5 million .... a 50 fold increase .....also patently ridiculous in an era (1800>) where several other nations were competing for the same pool of european migrants ..... canada with its longer history probably has similar figures for a 300+ year span but I cant be bothered finding estimates for their native population
 
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>I have much better things do to than argue this. I doubt anyone else is reading this thread anyway, and I won't be checking it again

Im reading it but I hate these kind of petty nitpicking arguments so usually skip over them. this time however Im sufficiently annoyed to drop in my 2c

>which is plainly ridiculous

yep, everything is ridiculous after a major (if slow) nuke throwing contest like twighlight 2000 was supposed to be ..... I mean everyone knows people only emigrate in waves following natural disasters .... of course they'd sit and glow following a manmade nuclear tragedy rather than move to (potentailly) relatively undamaged environments ..... our theoretical survivors wouldnt want to upset extrapolations of populations based on pre-nuke levels !

lets see .... after 200 years Australia's population has gone from an estimated 300K aborigines to about 20 million .... a ridiculous increase but not 30x ...... New Zealand has gone from about 100K to nearly 5 million .... a 50 fold increase .....also patently ridiculous in an era (1800>) where several other nations were competing for the same pool of european migrants ..... canada with its longer history probably has similar figures for a 300+ year span but I cant be bothered finding estimates for their native population

Well, those aren't population increases, they're movements. The question is largely one of load carrying. The question there would be the number and timing of the settlers. If you look at the British Isles, the population in Roman times was 1m, rising to 3-5m during the high medieval period, dropping back to a million by the 16th century, rising back, reach 15m around the time of Napoleon, 30m by the time of Victoria and is currently about 65m, and projected to stabilise at 75m, mostly by emigration as the "natives" are actually declining at 20% per generation at the moment (Italy's population is halving per generation). Canada is declining at about the same rate ISTR.

The two nations in question are Manchuria (ca 150m -> 2.919b) and Central Asia (12m -> 120m), incidently, two of the most nuked regions of the TW.
 
>Well, those aren't population increases, they're movements.

A nitpicking, symantics victory to you.

I dont recall the distinction being made anywhere in any 2300 publication.

>Manchuria (ca 150m -> 2.919b) and Central Asia (12m -> 120m),
>nearly 30 fold population growth

Neither of which is more than 20x ..... a nitpicking, symantics victory to me.

>two of the most nuked regions of the TW
I'd also dispute either of these winning over many european countries and personally have doubts compared to the USA but havent looked in a long time so I'll accept your opinion.

Anyway we are a long way from the intended topic.
 
Most Tier 4 nations tend to be somewhat stagnant. It is as much a lack of drive as a lack of resources. The French Peace contributed a great deal to this. Off-world contact, trade, and emigration was typically through French channels, and most smaller nations were content with this. A few weren't, and aren't and have found their own way out. Like Indonesia. Like Iran seems to be doing. Some nations are Tier 3 solely through the charity of other nations, in particular Canton and the Inca Republic. The Inca Republic should be something more like a Tier 5 nation, if such a things existed. The government of the republic benefits enormously from foreign investment, not just in the Beanstalk project but in a number of other ventures, that, if performed by a individual or cotporation, would be called 'schemes'.

As for the argument about orbital yards and production capability, almost all Tier 3 nations have some capability to construct starship hulls. Most starships are purchased from foreign yards, but the capability to construct a ship is a measure, along with supporting off-world colonies, for inclusion as a Tier 3 nation. Texas, for instance, has a yard that can only construct cutters and other small craft, but it refits all foreign purchased vessels to meet the Texan's requirements. This refit is part of the contract under which Texas purchases these ships, as a means of retaining some independent military capacity.

As for Canada, I don't recall the 2290 production bit. SotFA seems to indicate otherwise. 2320AD: Canada has had a domestic ship-building capability since the 2240s, mostly commercial hulls. These initial designs used foreign-produced stutterwarps, and even to this day the highest-performance drives on Canadian military vessels are sourced from British yards. The Slaver War was both Canadian and Manchurian warships, with Canada using Canadian-made Tribal-class ships (now retired), which were licensed-built variants of the British Warrior-class.

For 2320AD, this is canon. For 2300AD, not so much.
 
The Slaver War was both Canadian and Manchurian warships

Well, the Slaver War had no real space combat, the Manchurian ships that entered the system simply swatted everything. There is then a ground war lasting several years, apparently limited to the Xiang world, fought mainly by Manchuria again. A war which apparently, they "lost" as the Sung still maintain Xiang as slaves (as per NARL in Ch27).
 
Well, the Slaver War had no real space combat, the Manchurian ships that entered the system simply swatted everything. There is then a ground war lasting several years, apparently limited to the Xiang world, fought mainly by Manchuria again. A war which apparently, they "lost" as the Sung still maintain Xiang as slaves (as per NARL in Ch27).

I think you misread that bit. "Their most notable operation until recently was their successful mobilizations or world opinion to free the Xiang slaves from the Sung." The Sung no longer maintain the Xiang as slaves. It doesn't say that anywhere, or even imply it.
 
I think you misread that bit. "Their most notable operation until recently was their successful mobilizations or world opinion to free the Xiang slaves from the Sung." The Sung no longer maintain the Xiang as slaves. It doesn't say that anywhere, or even imply it.

It also says they are still trying to get the Xiang "slaves" freed as of 2300. NARL might have been successful in causing the Slaver War, it seems the war didn't do well though.
 
Or rather, the NARL doesn't think it is right for any Xiang to work for any Sung. The Xiang and Sung involved might actually view their relation as a freely made deal, but to NARL it is colonial oppression. They think the Xiang should go back to living their "authentic" stone-age life and avoid being polluted by Sung goods.
 
Or rather, the NARL doesn't think it is right for any Xiang to work for any Sung. The Xiang and Sung involved might actually view their relation as a freely made deal, but to NARL it is colonial oppression. They think the Xiang should go back to living their "authentic" stone-age life and avoid being polluted by Sung goods.

OT, but interesting as this is, I've shifted it to a new thread. Hope you don't mind.
 
Venezuela is the next "American" country to jump to the Tier 3, I saw a Venezuela stronger than the Inca Republic. I also wonder the status of the Caribbean islands, why Cuba left the Mexican federation??, Jamaica and Dominicana Republic status??, does the lesser Antilles Federation exist??
 
Venezuela is the next "American" country to jump to the Tier 3, I saw a Venezuela stronger than the Inca Republic. I also wonder the status of the Caribbean islands, why Cuba left the Mexican federation??, Jamaica and Dominicana Republic status??, does the lesser Antilles Federation exist??

Discussion on gENIE from back when GDW were active says the British and the French are in possession of the Caribbean islands. Ben Levy wrote up something different about 10 years later which is online.
 
Yea, I remember Levy's Caribbean Federation, the capital was located in Barbados. According to Ben, Cuba was an American associate state, Dominicana Rep was Mexican territory if I remember well, but all those was non-cannon, also the Dutch hold their Caribbean islands according to etranger's Venezuelan articles.
 
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