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What is a Safari Ship?

In 1977 Starships, p. 13, the fire control equipment is adjacent to the bridge, yet on p.14, turrets consume internal tonnage for fire control equipment. (Would that limit the placement of turrets to being bridge-adjacent in ships designed using Starships ?)
In LBB2 the hardpoint or turret requires no tonnage, but the fire control requires one Dt per turret.
There is no conflict between p13 and p14:
LBB2'77, p13:
Fire control equipment is also considered to be adjacent to the bridge. Each installed turret (see turrets, below) requires one ton of displacement committed for the installation of fire control equipment. Because turrets may well not be initially installed, space is often held in reserve to allow for later acquisition and installation.
LBB2'77, p14:
An installed turret requires one ton of displacement for the installation of fire control equipment necessary for its operation (such displacement must be available when the turret is installed, though it may be taken from reserve or surplus tonnage, or from cargo hold tonnage).
Where-ever you place it, it's one Dt internally per turret.


In Lightning Class Cruisers, p. 5, the 60,000 ton Azhanti High Lightning-class is described as having “Integral fire control and program storage” in its Electronics section. If that applies to all ships that are designed using 1980 High Guard, then fire control equipment would not be a separate line item in such ship designs.
AHL is presumably a HG'79 design. HG'79 used the LBB2 convention of one internal Dt per turret for fire control.

HG'80 changed that to a variable tonnage per turret, unspecified where. It might very well be internal fire contol.
 
Do you consider the direct quotation of the relevant source material to be “indefensible lengths” for propounding a point of view?
The proof is in the pudding ... not the recipe.

You have quoted RAW.
I'm telling you that you have misinterpreted, by means of over interpretation, what you have quoted.

Or to put it another way ... :rolleyes:

L5koyUY.gif

if those quotations from 1980 High Guard had instead stated “the hull’s tonnage” and “tons of hull” rather than “the ship’s tonnage” and “tons of ship”, then there would be no doubt about its incorrectness.
In other words, you're quibbling about semantics and resting your entire Rules Lawyering interpretation on something that you ASSUME to be true ... rather than relying on something which is explicitly stated and demonstrated to be true.

To put it mildly, the authors of LBB5.80 did not have the benefit of our (decades of) experience on the subject of external loads ... and ALL of the implications that flow from allowing that. Because of that (fact), I would not expect the writers and editors of the LBB5.80 starship construction rules (back then) to be as exactingly PRECISE with their language and choice of words as I would expect them to be today (with the benefit of hindsight granted by topic discussions such as this one we're engaging in right now).

Additional to that point ... LBB A5, p13-14 (published in 1981, after LBB5.80 was updated in 1980) comprises the explicitly written and spelled out rules for fuel tankage (internal and external options) which were NOT published in LBB5.80. AT NO POINT during those 2 pages of RAW for "Other Types of Fuel Tankage" is there any word written in support of the assertion that you are making (combined overall tonnage is what counts for bridge and crew and etc. allocations) ... as opposed to the assertion that I and others have been making (craft hull tonnage at construction counts for bridge and crew and etc. allocations, because external loads are separate factors).

At no point does LBB A5, p13-14 even intimate or imply that if you add enough external fuel to your craft that you need to increase the size of your crew ... and this bit of RAW would most definitely have been the opportunity to do so IF your assertion were the correct interpretation.

LBB5.80 omits the proof that you are claiming.
LBB A5 also omits the proof that you are assuming to exist, in the very section where such a clarification in your favor ought to be found.

Your witness, Counselor. :cool:
It was what it was. If the tournament had had different “non-failing” rules, then the EURISKO program would have optimized for a squadron with different characteristics.

Absolutely. Lenat’s squadron was specifically designed for one purpose—to win a series of tactical battles by being the last squadron standing, rather than to win a war.
Which was my point exactly, so I'm glad we agree. 😁

The tournament was set up in such a way that once "victory" was achieved, the winning fleet(s) served no further purpose once the "score" was recorded ... which works FINE in a "wargaming" context, but is hopelessly naive when it comes to the concerns of an admiralty that needs to determine tactics, strategy, logistics and doctrine (that whole pesky "real war" stuff). The tournament was too heavily focused on a "one and done" type of approach to the problem.

To give you (and everyone else reading this thread) a sense of the distinction in defining the problem "differently" ... suppose that the tournament fleets were required to J3 into the star system where the (first) combat was to take place. Craft that "survive" that first encounter then need to J3 into the NEXT star system where the NEXT combat has to take place ... and so on and so on. In other words, fleets would be obliged to survive their preliminaries ... move to the quarter finals, then the semi-finals ... and then finally square off against whatever was left (on both sides) in the finals.

If your fleet needs to be able to J3 AFTER winning your first battle in order to reach the second battle ... suddenly, using drop tanks to achieve 1J3 no longer looks quite so promising, does it? Sure, you may win your first battle in a rout, but then if you can't MOVE to get to your second battle (in time to be relevant to the fight THERE) then your fleet "forfeits the match" in the second round, because you built a fleet with only a 1J3 capacity dependent upon drop tanks.

And YES ... I agree with you ... that if the tournament had been structured in such a way as to account for "movement and attrition" (craft that fall behind get LEFT BEHIND and don't get to join later battles) like you would see in an actual naval campaign theater in a shooting war, the EURISKO program would have had VERY different programming constraints and would have optimized for a fleet with dramatically different characteristics.

After all, when you can make "sustainability" of your fleet beyond the first battle something of a "dump stat" in the design of your fleet ... that's going to have some pretty massive implications on design, tactics, strategy and doctrine at the Trillion Credit Squadron level of decision and policy making.
 
Where-ever you place it, it's one Dt internally per turret.
LBB A1 The Kinunir was published in 1979 and if you look at the deck plans and interior details, you'll see that fire control for the laser batteries is neither adjacent to the bridge nor localized within the turrets themselves. There's actually a Boat Battery Gunnery (13) and Laser Supervision Section (14) pair of rooms detailed on C Deck, well separated from the locations of the actual triple laser turrets, meaning remote workstations for gunners and the laser battery supervising petty officer.

So even as early as the first published deck plans, the "location" for the fire control needed by turrets did not have to be AT the turret itself (per se) OR adjacent to the bridge (which the Kinunir as published in LBB A1 had 2 of ... the main bridge on B Deck and the auxiliary bridge on A Deck). No matter how you slice it, the fire control was not adjacent to either bridge in the published deck plans.

It's probably something that SOUNDED like a good idea at the time (back in 1977-), where you would want to have gunnery control "within shouting distance" of bridge command personnel ("fire phasers, Mr. Sulu!") ... but then as soon as you start drawing actual deck plans, it becomes something of a hindrance to the interior design of starships.
 
LBB A1 The Kinunir was published in 1979 and if you look at the deck plans and interior details, you'll see that fire control for the laser batteries is neither adjacent to the bridge nor localized within the turrets themselves. There's actually a Boat Battery Gunnery (13) and Laser Supervision Section (14) pair of rooms detailed on C Deck, well separated from the locations of the actual triple laser turrets, meaning remote workstations for gunners and the laser battery supervising petty officer.

So even as early as the first published deck plans, the "location" for the fire control needed by turrets did not have to be AT the turret itself (per se) OR adjacent to the bridge (which the Kinunir as published in LBB A1 had 2 of ... the main bridge on B Deck and the auxiliary bridge on A Deck). No matter how you slice it, the fire control was not adjacent to either bridge in the published deck plans.

It's probably something that SOUNDED like a good idea at the time (back in 1977-), where you would want to have gunnery control "within shouting distance" of bridge command personnel ("fire phasers, Mr. Sulu!") ... but then as soon as you start drawing actual deck plans, it becomes something of a hindrance to the interior design of starships.
If you look at real world warships, the primary (and secondary) fire control is not located with the weapons (although in WW2 there was a less capable fire control computer* located in the main battery turrets which can be used if the primary and secondary systems have been put out of action).

* they were electro-mechanical computers taking various inputs from (multiple) anenometers, barometers, hygrometers and range finders as well as inputs from crew for factors like gun type, charge strength etc. All of those combined to give the firing solution.
 
Gazelle should settle the intended interpretation.
If you look at real world warships, the primary (and secondary) fire control is not located with the weapons (although in WW2 there was a less capable fire control computer* located in the main battery turrets which can be used if the primary and secondary systems have been put out of action).

* they were electro-mechanical computers taking various inputs from (multiple) anenometers, barometers, hygrometers and range finders as well as inputs from crew for factors like gun type, charge strength etc. All of those combined to give the firing solution.
Given TL5 for computer Model/1, I like to think it’s electromechanical…
 
So even as early as the first published deck plans, the "location" for the fire control needed by turrets did not have to be AT the turret itself (per se) OR adjacent to the bridge (which the Kinunir as published in LBB A1 had 2 of ... the main bridge on B Deck and the auxiliary bridge on A Deck). No matter how you slice it, the fire control was not adjacent to either bridge in the published deck plans.
I interpret "Fire control equipment" to be something like fire control computers and targeting sensors. They are not workstations, in LBB2 the gunners are in the turrets by default. Fire Control can be anywhere, but perhaps more practical by the bridge, with similar equipment.

When we draw deck plans we can do more or less anything we like, if we are remotely within tonnage, by published example. CIC would be "bridge" to me even in a separate room, at least for larger ships.

I rather like the Kinunir deck plans, as they are not slavishly bound to one component = one room. The "bridge" is divided into several rooms, there are many different types of "staterooms", and so on. At a guess personnel spaces are vastly over-sized, but that is pretty common...
 
Dispersed local fire control would have more to do with minimizing loss of firepower, if some centralized systems or areas are damaged.
 
I interpret "Fire control equipment" to be something like fire control computers and targeting sensors. They are not workstations, in LBB2 the gunners are in the turrets by default.
Or at least that is what a lot of the art showed.... Though note when Traveller was written many navel weapon mounts were manned at the mount still. Note the standard 5 inch mount from when I was it the service, the loading crew were the deck below, with gunnery control being the CIC.
 
You have quoted RAW.
I’m telling you that you have misinterpreted, by means of over interpretation, what you have quoted.
I understand that that is what you are telling me.

I have inferred the meanings of the phrases “the ship’s tonnage” and “tons of ship” in the RAW.

If you can point to definitions of these two phrases in the RAW as they existed in July 1981 that confirm your interpretation of these phrases, please do; if you can’t, then my view is that your interpretation of these phrases is also based on inference.

you’re quibbling about semantics and resting your entire Rules Lawyering interpretation on something that you ASSUME to be true … rather than relying on something which is explicitly stated and demonstrated to be true.
Again, my interpretation is based on an inference of the meanings of two phrases. Please point me to where the meanings of “the ship’s tonnage” and “tons of ship” are explicitly stated in the RAW; the truth of those meanings can then be demonstrated.

To put it mildly, the authors of LBB5.80 did not have the benefit of our (decades of) experience on the subject of external loads … and ALL of the implications that flow from allowing that. Because of that (fact), I would not expect the writers and editors of the LBB5.80 starship construction rules (back then) to be as exactingly PRECISE with their language and choice of words as I would expect them to be today (with the benefit of hindsight granted by topic discussions such as this one we're engaging in right now).
The difference between “ship” and “hull” is not a matter of exact precision; it is a matter of clarity, which I would expect of the writers of such construction rules (as well as of editors if they have familiarity with the subject matter).

Additional to that point … LBB A5, p13–14 (published in 1981, after LBB5.80 was updated in 1980) comprises the explicitly written and spelled out rules for fuel tankage (internal and external options) which were NOT published in LBB5.80. AT NO POINT during those 2 pages of RAW for “Other Types of Fuel Tankage” is there any word written in support of the assertion that you are making (combined overall tonnage is what counts for bridge and crew and etc. allocations) … as opposed to the assertion that I and others have been making (craft hull tonnage at construction counts for bridge and crew and etc. allocations, because external loads are separate factors).
The only construction-oriented text that I see in that Fuel Tankage section is:
  • “All craft must be fitted with fuel tanks during the design and construction process.”;
  • The prices and construction times related to collapsible tanks, interior demountable tanks, exterior demountable tanks, and drop tanks.
I didn’t see any written word there in support of your assertion; applying your own argumentum ad absentiam to your assertion would thus invalidate it as well.

At no point does LBB A5, p13–14 even intimate or imply that if you add enough external fuel to your craft that you need to increase the size of your crew … and this bit of RAW would most definitely have been the opportunity to do so IF your assertion were the correct interpretation.
Another necessary precursor to this particular assertion is if the circumstance of adding 50% of a hull’s tonnage in drop tanks to a combat ship designed with 1980 High Guard rules had been considered while Trillion Credit Squadron was being written. Before Origins 1981, which GDW-designed ship had the largest proportion of external tank tonnage to hull tonnage, and what was that proportion? My view is that external tankage of such proportions were not previously considered by GDW, for the same reason that we agree about Lenat’s squadron—external fuel tankage is very vulnerable to battle damage, and taking that squadron on campaign would be suicidal.

Which was my point exactly, so I'm glad we agree. 😁
To my knowledge, on the topic of Lenat’s squadron going on campaign, our views were never divergent.
 
I have no idea when TCS was published, I had naively assumed it was before the tournament. As noted, using drop tanks in tournaments was banned as a result of Eurisko, but is not in the TCS book.
Inside of JTAS issue 9, there’s a full-page GDW ad that states

[…] At the five major summer conventions [in 1981], GDW will release over ten new games […]​

and lists twelve GDW products under it, the first of them being Trillion Credit Squadron. If it was called a “new game” there, then it was released at Origins (as well as the other four gaming conventions; the earliest of them was Michicon X, three weeks before Origins).

Since Lenat was creating “concepts” with ship-related data for his EURISKO program a month before Origins, that suggests that the tournament competitors at the five conventions all received either (1) a preprint version or (2) a printed copy, before the general release at the conventions, so that they had time to design their squadrons for the tournaments.
 
I didn’t see any written word there in support of your assertion; applying your own argumentum ad absentiam to your assertion would thus invalidate it as well.
So ... a strike for thee but not for me ... is that it?
Before Origins 1981, which GDW-designed ship had the largest proportion of external tank tonnage to hull tonnage, and what was that proportion? My view is that external tankage of such proportions were not previously considered by GDW
Near as I can surmise, the whole external demountable tanks/drop tanks notional idea was formulated during the LBB2 era, which meant a small ship universe was the sandbox to play with. To my knowledge, the only major OTU setting stuff that made use of drop tanks as an intentional design feature were the Gazelle class (which got injured in translation to LBB5) and the "mythical" J6 XBoats that never had any stats published for them (or the Tenders that would be obliged to support them). There may have been other starships that were given drop tanks in their designs in other published CT materials for general use, but I'm hard pressed to think of any others than just those two one and a half.

Point being, all signs point towards an ACS "augment" capability, rather than some kind of loophole/exploit just begging to be taken advantage of by BCS.

At best, the notion was "under cooked" and revealed a bit haphazardly in ways that ought to have been documented (and edited) MUCH better.
 
Another necessary precursor to this particular assertion is if the circumstance of adding 50% of a hull’s tonnage in drop tanks to a combat ship designed with 1980 High Guard rules had been considered while Trillion Credit Squadron was being written. Before Origins 1981, which GDW-designed ship had the largest proportion of external tank tonnage to hull tonnage, and what was that proportion? My view is that external tankage of such proportions were not previously considered by GDW, for the same reason that we agree about Lenat’s squadron ...
The JTAS#4 Gazelle-class credited to MWM was not exactly specified, but by the description it was warship with something like a 240 Dt hull with a 160 Dt tank, so about 67% added tank.

As previously discussed the Unicorn (Gazelle-class ported to HG'80) was in HG'80 itself; it was a 300 Dt ship with an added 100 Dt tank, so 33% added tank.

So, warships with large drop tanks were certainly considered, and featured, before '81.


... —external fuel tankage is very vulnerable to battle damage, and taking that squadron on campaign would be suicidal.
Before TCS was published there was no special vulnerability, so by HG alone it was just as safe as regular tanks.
 
To my knowledge, the only major OTU setting stuff that made use of drop tanks as an intentional design feature were the Gazelle class (which got injured in translation to LBB5) and the "mythical" J6 XBoats that never had any stats published for them (or the Tenders that would be obliged to support them).
The issues with the Gazelle seem to be from the LBB5'79 -> LBB5'80 conversion. It was designed in the context of a small-ship (LBB2) universe (as was the Kinunir), but was always a LBB5 design.
 
So … a strike for thee but not for me … is that it?
Not at all—my rejoinder explicitly included “as well”. If you’d like to relate it to a pithy saying, “what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander” would be a better fit.

At best, the [external fuel tankage] notion was “under cooked” and revealed a bit haphazardly in ways that ought to have been documented (and edited) MUCH better.
So it seems that we agree on the view that an expectation of clarity in rulesets—the combined efforts of ruleset writers and editors—is not unreasonable.
 
The JTAS#4 Gazelle-class credited to MWM was not exactly specified, but by the description it was warship with something like a 240 Dt hull with a 160 Dt tank, so about 67% added tank.

As previously discussed the Unicorn (Gazelle-class ported to HG’80) was in HG’80 itself; it was a 300 Dt ship with an added 100 Dt tank, so 33% added tank.

So, warships with large drop tanks were certainly considered, and featured, before ’81.

Before TCS was published there was no special vulnerability [of external fuel tankage to battle damage], so by HG alone it was just as safe as regular tanks.
And when it was published, its Rules and Rulings section determined that external fuel tankage was vulnerable to battle damage. (I presume that ship armoring was not applied to either external demountable tanks or drop tanks on armored ships, even before Trillion Credit Squadron was published.) Since it seems to have been generally released at the summer 1981 tournaments, I wonder if that vulnerability was applied during that tournament?

Regarding the exclusion of drop tanks in the 1983 tournament squadrons, it seems to have been one of the consequences of the Eurisko-class vs. its opponents’ squadrons in 1981 (I don’t know if Lenat’s 1982 squadron also depended upon them), which was described by Lenat in his 1983 Artificial Intelligence article:

Almost all the other entrants in the final tournament had fleets that consisted of about 20 ships, each with a huge spinal mount weapon, low armor, fairly high agility, and a large number of secondary energy weapons (laser-type weapons). This contrasted with EURISKO’s fleet in almost all ways. Most ships in our fleet did sprout one solitary laser among their 50 or so weapon batteries, but not because it was useful in combat—just to absorb damage from enemy fire (thanks to the somewhat unrealistic scheme by which damage is inflicted on ships which have been hit). After an exchange of fire, most of the enemy behemoths did indeed sink one of EURISKO’s ships, for a total loss of about 15 ships. In return, EURISKO’s 96 ships sank about 5 of the enemy. So just prior to the second exchange of fire, the enemy was down to 15 ships, and EURISKO 81. After a second round of fire, the numbers were 11 and 70. Two more exchanges brought the totals to 1 and 46, and one more round of fire wiped out the enemy. In this scenario—which was the most common one in all EURISKO’s battles during the tournament—there is no need at all to bring any of its specialty ships into the front lines at any time.​
The tournament was run in such a way that, after one player wins a battle, his fleet is completely reconstituted and repaired to its original state, in preparation for the next rung of the ladder. […] Its second opponent did some calculations and resigned without ever firing a shot. The subsequent opponents resigned during their first or second round of combat with this fleet. EURISKO’s few specialty ships remained unused until the final round of the tournament, battling for 1st versus 2nd place. That opponent also had ships with heavy armor, few large weapons, low agility, etc. He was lacking any fast ships or fast-ship-killers, though. The author simply pointed out to him that if EURISKO were losing then (according to the TCS rules) our side need put only our fast ship out [on] the front line, withdraw all the others and repair them, and—once they were finished repairing themselves—effectively start the battle all over again. This could go on ad infinitum, until such time as EURISKO appeared to be winning, and in that case we would let the battle continue to termination. The opponent did a few calculations and surrendered without fighting. Thus, while most of the tournament battles took 2–4 hours, most of those involving EURISKO took only a few minutes.​
The tournament directors were chagrined that a bizarre fleet such as this one captured the day, and a similar fleet (though not so extreme) took second place. The rules for future years’ TCS tournaments were changed to eliminate the design singularities which EURISKO found. For example, repairing of damaged ships was prohibited, so the utility of the unhittable ship became negligible.​
[…]​
When rules for the 1982 tournament were announced, EURISKO was set to work on finding a new fleet design. Although many of its best designs and design rules were now illegal or useless, most of the general heuristics it synthesized about the game were still valid. Using the ‘nearly-extreme’ heuristic, for instance, it quickly designed a ship with practically no defense, and that ship filled a key role in the final fleet. Coincidentally, just as the defensive ship made a difference in the 1981 final round, the offensive ships made a difference in the 1982 final round. In each case, their presence caused the opponent to resign without firing a shot. The bulwark of our 1981 fleet was a ship that was slow and heavily armored; the majority of ships in our 1982 fleet were very fast and completely unarmored. Just as most ‘experienced’ players jeered at the 1981 fleet because it had practically no large weapons, they jeered at the 1982 fleet because it was unarmored and it still had no large weapons, even though the rules changes had made them much cheaper.​
What EURISKO found were not fundamental rules for fleet and ship design; rather, it uncovered anomalies, fortuitous interactions among rules, unrealistic loopholes that hadn’t been foreseen by the designers of the TCS simulation system. There may be little of what EURISKO found that has application to real naval design; most of its findings pertained to the fine structure of the TCS rules, not to the real world. […]​
The fact that EURISKO’s discoveries were synergistic loopholes rather than genuine naval insights is not in itself bad, as our goal was to win the tournament, not break new ground in real warfare. In fact, the very unreality of the TCS rules—as any 100-page model of the real world is bound to be incomplete and have rough edges—promised to aid us in our task. Here was a search space that had not been explored much by human beings yet; most designers were applying analogues of rules that hold in real life, and that yielded them reasonable designs—fleets of the kind the TCS people anticipated. EURISKO was able to walk around in the space defined by the set of rules, somewhat awkwardly, but (thanks to its absence of common sense knowledge) with few preconceptions about what an optimal design might be. Perhaps we will know that the program has ‘arrived’ when it first fails to win the TCS tournament. This notion of a large, unexplored search space, not necessarily well-matched to our everyday comnon-sense intuitions, will come up again and again in the following pages. It appears to characterize those domains for which automated discovery (of both concepts and heuristics) is currently most viable.​
The rules will indeed change for July, 1983, including the elimination of drop-tanks (fuel tanks that can be jettisoned; this improves the speed of a ship but may strand it after the battle) and other changes that will force a complete redesign. We look forward to the new challenge.​
 
And when it was published, its Rules and Rulings section determined that external fuel tankage was vulnerable to battle damage. (I presume that ship armoring was not applied to either external demountable tanks or drop tanks on armored ships, even before Trillion Credit Squadron was published.) Since it seems to have been generally released at the summer 1981 tournaments, I wonder if that vulnerability was applied during that tournament?
It's irrelevant to the Eurisko fleet, as they have no intention of keeping the tanks but eject them immediately.

If the vulnerability was used, it was presumably announced beforehand and taken into consideration by Lenat's program.


Regarding the exclusion of drop tanks in the 1983 tournament squadrons, it seems to have been one of the consequences of the Eurisko-class vs. its opponents’ squadrons in 1981 (I don’t know if Lenat’s 1982 squadron also depended upon them), which was described by Lenat in his 1983 Artificial Intelligence article:
Yes, presumably. If we can use drop tanks like Eurisko it becomes more or less mandatory for TCS Tournament (and Tournament only).


Reading from the vague descriptions, I would guess the 1982 would be based on something like this:
Code:
BL-G146GG3-043300-440E3-0     MCr 10 159       7 500 Dton    Ag=6
BL-K1439G3-043300-440E3-0     MCr 10 159      12 500 Dton
bearing     1     11 1Z                          Crew=166
batteries   1     11 1Z                             TL=13
(Z=62)    Cargo=94 Fuel=1237 EP=1237 Agility=3 DropT=5000
Code:
Dual Occupancy                                       94    12 698
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             G          7 500        
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                      900
Scoops              Streamlined                                 8
                                                               
Drop Tanks          5 000 Dton                                  5
Total tonnage       12 500 Dton                                
                                                               
Jump Drive                             4    1       625     2 500
Manoeuvre D                            6    1     1 275       638
Power Plant                           16    1     2 474     7 422
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4     1 237        
Purifier                                    1       156         1
                                                               
Bridge                                      1       150        38
Computer            m/7fib             G    1        18       100
                                                               
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                          162       324        41
                                                               
Cargo                                                94        
                                                               
Spinal              Meson E            E    1     1 000       800
Triple Turret       Missile            3   62        62       140
Triple Turret       Beam               4    1         1         3
Single Turret       Fusion             4    1         2         2
Triple Turret       Sand               4    1         1         1
                                                               
Nuclear Damper                         3    1        20        45
Meson Screen                           3    1        45        55
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 12 698,20        Sum:        94    12 698
Class Cost          MCr  2 666,62       Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 10 158,56                              
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    10
Passengers            Mid     0         166       Engineers    44
                      Low     0                     Gunners    89
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service    23
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0
Minimalistic light, fast meson sled. The drop tanks makes it a self-propelled battle rider (just like Eurisko).
Add a few lighter ships, and you have a fleet that is faster and more numerous than the enemy, thereby controlling range.
Keep the battle at Short range to give an advantage to your mesons and a disadvantage to enemy missiles?

Edit: Oops! From the quoted article: "... they jeered at the 1982 fleet because it was unarmored and it still had no large weapons ...", so no spinals...
 
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The tournament was run in such a way that, after one player wins a battle, his fleet is completely reconstituted and repaired to its original state, in preparation for the next rung of the ladder.
Aha. :sneaky:
So my surmise was true. The tournament rules involved a "push button to reset fleet" after every battle.

This is "good" from a tactical standpoint, since allowing "fresh fleets" to duke it out highlighted the design choices that went into each fleet. It's also "bad" from a strategic standpoint, since doing that means that all a fleet has to do is win ONE battle (repeatedly) at full strength, without needing to bother with sustainability over multiple combats. When you can make sustainability your "dump stat" ... weird things happen.
The tournament directors were chagrined that a bizarre fleet such as this one captured the day, and a similar fleet (though not so extreme) took second place.
That outcome basically highlighted that the setup of the tournament was flawed.
The fleets were "legal" under the rules of the wargame ... so it was the rules of the wargame that created the conditions for that outcome.
The rules for future years’ TCS tournaments were changed to eliminate the design singularities which EURISKO found.
No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. 😅
And as every GM and Referee knows ... Players are CRAFTY BAH'STIDZ ... 😳

Just as an aside, that whole "finding design singularities" is basically what *I* do with my character/vehicle/starship designs, regardless of game system. I'm always on the lookout for synergies that can yield unexpected advantages when combined creatively.
What EURISKO found were not fundamental rules for fleet and ship design; rather, it uncovered anomalies, fortuitous interactions among rules, unrealistic loopholes that hadn’t been foreseen by the designers of the TCS simulation system. There may be little of what EURISKO found that has application to real naval design; most of its findings pertained to the fine structure of the TCS rules, not to the real world.
Exactly.
It found the anomalies in the "simulation" and proceeded to exploit them.
Essentially, EURISKO was doing "red team" work highlighting weak points and flaws within the structure of the rules.
The fact that EURISKO’s discoveries were synergistic loopholes rather than genuine naval insights is not in itself bad, as our goal was to win the tournament, not break new ground in real warfare. In fact, the very unreality of the TCS rules—as any 100-page model of the real world is bound to be incomplete and have rough edges—promised to aid us in our task.
YUP. 😋
Here was a search space that had not been explored much by human beings yet; most designers were applying analogues of rules that hold in real life, and that yielded them reasonable designs—fleets of the kind the TCS people anticipated.
This kind of thing basically involves "conceptual exploration" of regions of thought that have not yet been surveyed (and argued into submission). It's the kind of thing that I do (a LOT) where I take the Conventional Wisdom™ concerning "how things ought to be done" ... and seek out new paradigms of possibility. Most of the time, it's not an effort to "break" a gaming rules system (although I have been consulted on how to do EXACTLY THAT more than once), but more an effort to find a "new island of stability" in the rules following a different paradigm (some assembly required).

My first example of doing this (which got recognized by the community) was actually with Diablo II (in late 2000), where I developed and codified the Speedazon build. Up until that point, the Conventional Wisdom™ had ossified into believing that the superior strategy was to use the biggest, slowest, heaviest hitting per shot bow or crossbow weapon you could find (what I called the "Goth Chick" build, so named for the Gothic Bow which was the latest tier of weapon that hit the hardest at the time). With enough equipment, you could effectively be shooting "sledgehammers" that would POP most opposition in just a few shots (which saved on ammo).

Then I came along with the conceptual framework (and math to back it up) postulating that it was possible to trade damage per hit for rate of fire and still achieve the same throughput in terms of damage per second (at the expense of a quicker ammo burn). ON PAPER, it worked ... but no one was willing to toss their hard earned gear overboard ON A THEORY that hadn't been proven yet in actual combat in the game.

So I joined Battle.net, started playing (softcore) online and began working on my proof of concept.
When other Players actually SAW what I was doing (and how FAST I could do it) ... I started getting converts to the new paradigm I'd advanced.

It ultimately wound up becoming something of a "revolutionary movement" in Diablo II ... and part of the backlash to the "Barbazon Invasion of 1.04" that started shortly after, since all of the former Barbarian Players naturally flocked to the "Goth Chick" playstyle ... rather than the "Fast Blonde" playstyle of the Speedazon.

The potential had been there all along, from the beginning ... but someone needed to understand all of the options and "explore" the conceptual space of what was POSSIBLE in order to find that particular confluence of factors that yielded an almost entirely new way to play, which was more demanding (and thrilling, in my opinion), where REACTION SPEED could become the difference in survival and safety.

I've basically gone on to do similar things in other games ... such as City of Heroes (powers and enhancements build choices) and Vanilla World of Warcraft (talent builds) ... where I find unexplored synergies and work out the advantages they offer when combined together into a holistic unified whole.

My most recent "hobby horses" of this type of endeavor have been regenerative biome life support and external load towing enabling containerized transport in Traveller ... but I'm assuming you knew that already if you've read my posts in these forums. 😅
 
True, but demountable tanks are fitted internally (replacing cargo) and take a few days to remove.
Fun fact.
It is perfectly "rules legal" to build a starship with ZERO tons of internal fuel tankage ... and then include a large enough Cargo Hold that you can then fill up with Internal Demountable Fuel Tanks that would equal (and/or exceed) the fuel tankage required for "normal" internal fuel tanks.

You'll PAY for the privilege of doing that (Cr0 per ton for integral fuel tanks, Cr1000 per ton for demountable tanks) ... but there are going to be edge cases where doing so is potentially advantageous. If you need more than 1000 tons of fuel, for example ... you might want to switch to demountable fuel tanks, or use a mix of both.

So if your ship needed 2000 tons of fuel, you could have a 1000 ton integral fuel tank (Cr0 per ton) and a 1000 ton Cargo Hold (Cr0 per ton) loaded with 100x 10 ton Internal Demountable Fuel Tanks (Cr1000 per ton = MCr1).

Why do that? :unsure:
Well ... :rolleyes:

When you take a fuel hit during battle, you lose fuel in 1% increments (minimum 10 tons).
If your integral fuel tank holds 2000 tons of fuel, each 1% fuel hit loses 20 tons of fuel.
But if your integral fuel tank holds 1000 tons of fuel, each 1% fuel hit loses ... 10 tons of fuel ... and you've got a containerized reserve of ANOTHER 1000 tons of fuel, in increments of 10 tons each, occupying your cargo hold.

So instead of needing 100x 1% fuel hits to purge 100% of your fuel load (2000 tons in an integral fuel tank) ... instead you need 200x 1% fuel hits to purge 100% of your fuel load (1000 tons in an integral fuel tank, 1000 tons in an internal demountable fuel tanks in your cargo hold). :sneaky:
Price tag for this little trick?
+MCr1
Do it during starship construction and you'll never notice the difference (except when it counts!).



So there are WAYS to finesse things to your advantage which are not (yet) commonly accepted standard practice in the starship design space. :sneaky:
 
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