Well whats it like?

[Baltech Budapest]

It's still only a 'first impressions' review as most of the ones I've seen seem to be.

I think it could be quite some time before we see a detailed review, and rightly so. I wouldn't expect to see a full review of a 656 page book for several weeks.

 

[Vladika]

Traveller 5 First Impressions article?

I read the review and while it made salient points, the author has no claim to stellar brilliance. An example:

It had its drawback for me too. It constantly tested my math skills, causing me to regret sleeping through the section on vectors in math class. It had a less than elegant way of dealing with how various weapons and various armor types interacted — it was a table, and a fairly big one that wasn’t easy to memorize.

Give me a break! Traveller uses a graphic vector system that, IMNSHO, a moron could use with no trouble. It requires almost no thought. Paper, pencil, and a ruled straight edge...

I haven't read anything by a member of CotI that would remotely indicate to me that this boards members would have the slightest problem with it.

Math, my God! If your math skills are that bad stick with "52 pickup".:devil:

 

[HG_B]

Look at the third paragraph,

The 3rd paragraph was about his 1st experience with the ORIGINAL Traveller. NOT T5...

 

[Baltech Budapest]

I think in fairness to the guy, I think he was just looking for something to write in his blog.
It really echos most other (non-CotI) reviews in that it is a quick 'flick through the pages' kind of review.

Having said that, even if I was to read a 10 page in depth review I would still make up my own mind.

 

[Dragoner]

The 3rd paragraph was about his 1st experience with the ORIGINAL Traveller. NOT T5...

Yes, exactly.

 

[atpollard]

The 3rd paragraph was about his 1st experience with the ORIGINAL Traveller. NOT T5...

Yes, exactly.

Referring to Classic Traveller:
"It had its drawback for me too. It constantly tested my math skills, causing me to regret sleeping through the section on vectors in math class. It had a less than elegant way of dealing with how various weapons and various armor types interacted — it was a table, and a fairly big one that wasn’t easy to memorize."

I hate to say this, but I completely agree with that assessment of both Vector Combat and Weapon vs Armor tables in Classic Traveller.

While I never had trouble with the vector system, I never enjoyed it in actual use. I would have greatly preferred something closer to Car Wars movement (with the little turning template). Absent that, the Range Bands combat system was my second choice.

Weapon vs Armor tables made it harder to add new weapons to the game and slowed down combat a little compared to some other combat mechanics. Mongoose had the option to restore the Weapon vs Armor tables in Mongoose Traveller but chose a different mechanic instead, so they must also have felt that there was a better way to do it.

If this is 'flame bait' territory, I don't see it, myself.

 

[Dragoner]

Not just that, but the dig at the playtesters as well. I'm pretty sure if a new person on their first post posted that review, it would not endear them to anyone's hearts. yvmv

Trav fans are a wild bunch.

 

[atpollard]

I'm pretty sure if a new person on their first post posted that review, it would not endear them to anyone's hearts. yvmv

Actually, no.
On this point I suspect that you are correct.
His review was not something to win friends and influence people who already like Traveller, especially those who like T5.

 

[heckj]

There seem to be more people in this category than those that actually have had time to go through the final book and play test it.

A lot of the Kickstarter copies have gone out, but the "cold equations" and some vacation time for Marc mean that plenty more are still yet to go out. If the rates that Marc reported continue when he's back from vacation, then I'm hoping all the books ordered originally will be in folks hands by the second week or June or so. I'm totally guessing that date based on Marc's kickstarter update #49 a few weeks ago and some probably incorrect assumptions about shipping.

 

[Ebon2013]

I'm still at the 'first impression' stage. My opinion might change as I go through the book in a more detailed fashion.

My first impression is, sadly, that I tossed $75 down a rat hole.

If I were not an old grognard that knew Traveller backwards and forwards, I'd be hopelessly lost in even trying to figure out what I had in my hands. The book, in terms of any other modern RPG book, is a total disaster. There's literally nothing appealing or engaging about it until the very end. It's an editing nightmare; if you'd tossed random chapters into the air and then bound them as they fell it might not be as bad as what's there. As a technical manual for old-time fans, it's passable. For anyone else, it's unsellable in it's current condition.

There is virtually no setting information at all, and what does exist seems to have been chosen purely at random. Thank goodness I already know what a Darrian or a Vargr is, because this book would never tell me. What are the Spinward Marches? If I was a newbie I'd have to glean a few bits from pages separated by hundreds of other pages to even figure out what and where they are. No alien rules beyond the weird inclusion of all that silly random alternate stat mess in the chargen rules, no illustrations beyond some primitive doodles, nothing.

There's a few good things in here (such as the design philosophy), especially for the long-time fan, but not enough to justify the book we have.

I'll see if my opinion changes as I continue to look at it.

 

[kilandra]

My impression as someone who had only heard of Traveller is that the system contains many interesting and innovative mechanics and could have been a great system and may in time be just that.

And now for the but...

The layout is painful to navigate, the lack of clear references to other sections is maddening, the error count is frightening, the size of the book is plain intimidating and most of all the complete lack of setting details is probably the most upsetting part.

I personally think that the book should have been split up into several smaller books that specialize on the more complex rules. A more comprehensive section on the setting would be invaluable (I think I may have to invent the Archdukes as they don't seem to have names and as for the other major races, well they are a complete mystery so I guess I just sort of randomly assign some characteristics and make up some random story for them). Some of the tables you need are not located in the section that explains them and are only in the benchmark or Master mod table (Often guess work as to which). The Master Mod table is actually what has most stumped me - it is epic, unexplained, inordinately complex and almost unnavigable.

That being said I really like some of the mechanics in the book which is why I joined the efforts to help with the errata, in the hopes that at some point a revised edition would be released that I can use to run a game because I believe from reading almost the entire book (I haven't worked my way though the chapter on star ship creation yet) that the system has potential. So I eagerly await each iteration of the errata and hope that once the initial deliveries are done that Mark has time to look into reorganizing and reprinting the book in a revised format.

 

[nats]

Thanks for your replies, and that review you stated was a good partial review of the book IMO and I have since check over a few more reviews on other forums etc. Seems the book is quite low on quality of production and high on quantity - just like Mongoose in fact IMO. I hate the way that Mongoose books are badly edited and almost completely illustration free.

I just want something simple to play games with my kids, I'm not into complexity.

I will watch developments though - check it out when it comes to a bookstore near me and maybe buy it if I feel like needing an alternative to CT. Its a dilemma - I love CT, but CT is old and quite basic. I prefer the way MgT plays especially chargen and tasks, and love how it brought all of the old CT rules together and up to date, but I hate the production values, waffle and over-complexity of Mongoose Traveller.

Still looking for a Traveller game I can enjoy playing, really.

 

[robject]

In my opinion, Books 1-3 work fine if you want simple and for-your-kids, and the price is right. Then, later, when you need the advanced tools, snag a copy of T5.

 

[Baltech Budapest]

In my opinion, Books 1-3 work fine if you want simple and for-your-kids, and the price is right. Then, later, when you need the advanced tools, snag a copy of T5.

Totally agree.
I use CT books 1-3 with my kids. Hardly ever use any of the other books or supplements. It's perfect for what I need and the kids love it.

I know what to expect with T5 and I intend to slowly grow into it and eventually use what I need in order to play it with my kids.

CharGen, task resolution and combat is all I will be using for starters. Everything else will come in time.

My general feeling with T5, and indeed all complex systems is that I would rather have too much information than not enough as I can always learn the added advanced rules.

 

[sfchbryan]

I have been rummaging through the monolith for a couple of weeks now. My initial impressions....

The core rules are a tool-box. What you use will be based on your style of play (if you are actually playing a campaign). If you are not actually engaged in a Traveller campaign, there is a lot here to amuse you.

If you are a gearhead - your prayers have been answered. If you are not a lot of this is, well, worthless. I am a role-player, not a roll-player, therefore vast swaths of the core rules are useless, for me.

If you loved T4 - T5 builds on that. If you like Classic Traveller, Megatraveller, or god forbid, TNE - a lot of this will be jarringly unfamiliar, and won't make a lot of sense at first.

In my opinion, the level of granularity that Marc added is just more paperwork for things that will only be used once, if at all. The KISS principle isn't something that Marc appears to believe in.

Too many of these rules if "provided to the players" will send them running for the doors.

On the other hand, if you are a shitty GM with no imagination and an inability to think on your feet, you do have a solution for almost any problem (as long as you don't mind constantly flipping through the monolith to find it, because there is no index).

I see a lot of clever solutions to problems I have never once asked or had a member of any group ask in the past 30+ years of playing Traveller. Perhaps I have been playing Traveller the wrong way all this time.

The Flux concept - I play Traveller, not Yahtzee - not to mention that it gives the player too much information.

Genetics - what problem does this solve? If I want characteristics to dominate over skills, I'd play D&D. This is what actually drew me away from D&D to Traveller.

The Senses - see genetics.

Gunmaker, Blademaker, Armormaker, etc. I suspect that 75% of this will be used once, if at all. On the other hand, which 25% is used will vary from group to group. In my case, the first 3 won't be used at all - Thingmaker, perhaps. As a role-player, it doesn't matter 1 whit if I shoot someone with a rifle with a 5.56mm or a 7.62mm, they are going down.

The artwork. 70's line art doesn't cut it. The sad part is a number of the folks who made art for Traveller back in the day are heavily engaged in making 3d art - go visit the Traveller groups over at deviantart.com You will see several familiar names.

If you are not familiar with Traveller, don't bother. One of the book's core assumptions is that you are intimately familiar with Traveller and it's past.

T5 is NOT designed to bring new players to the fold. Much like Total War (the remake of Fire in the East) it appears to be geared to long time gearheads. I am sure the sewing circle is happy that their vision won out, I am ambivalent about it. I would have preferred seeing a simple, clean game system that would entice new people to the game system, as opposed to a placating a bunch of whiny grognards. I haven't seen anything that T5 does better than CT or MT - more complexity, but not better playability.

I figure most people will add the rules they like to their preferred game engine and ignore the other 500 pages (which 100 or so pages will be different for every group, depending on playing style).

There are several sections that are definitely going to move into my version of the MT rules, but T5 as a whole, meh.

 

[Original_Carl]

Warning: I'm serious T5 cheerleader and defender, but I believe if you really love something, you have to love it warts-and-all. This post is almost all about the warts.

Having been in the "Beta" group for T5, I feel a lot of guilt when I read these reviews. I ran a T5 beta game for 6 months and marked up the PDFs with what I thought would be helpful comments and corrections. I submitted very few of these. I have no excuse for this. I was lazy. When I'd get out here to CotI and get on the Beta forums, I didn't want to put in the hours required to convert my notes to posts. I had the opportunity to make this game better and I squandered it to play computer games and work on my own campaign. There's my mea culpa.

If I had to characterize the BBB in one word, it would be, "unfinished." This book is a late-stage draft, at best.

SFCHBRYAN is spot-on. This is not a book for someone who has never played Traveller. I'll go further. This is not a book for someone who's new to roleplaying. This is not a book for someone who's never Refereed a game. This book, at best, is a toolbox of ideas for assembling your own RPG from the bits you like -- if you have a lot of experience with both Traveller and role playing games. If you're looking for a something that you can dig into and start playing with your friends on Saturday night, this is not the product for you. I would suggest Mongoose for that, but buy the pocket edition core rules.

The organization of the BBB leaves a lot to be desired. The lack of a detailed TOC, TOF, TOT and index makes the book almost useless as a reference tool at a game table. If you want to use it like that, I suggest you buy a pack of post-its and make your own section markers.

The text needs editing. In many places it is confusing and conflicts with itself. There are many errors of all types: grammatical, typographical, layout, game system, etc.

The art is uneven, at best. Some of it is good. A lot of it is not. I'm going to stop there because I think that if you judge the quality of a game by its art, you're shallow. D&D (since about 1983) has super-terrific-awesome art. The stuff from 3.0 forward is mind-numbingly beautiful. It's so beautiful that you're inclined to think that that game is a lot better than it actually is. D&D is a terribly shallow game system in some really beautiful clothes. I will take crappy art over a crappy game any day. I know artists. I can have them draw me something nice if I want it.

In many ways T5 demonstrates the biggest problems with the RPG hobby and why that hobby will never be as mainstream as something like video games. It's a big, complicated book that's not well-written containing very complex ideas that aren't well-explained or justified. In places where there should be a lot of words, there are few. In places where a few words would suffice, there are a lot. It is exclusive, by which I mean it excludes those who cannot penetrate these flaws to access the truly brilliant stuff that lies between its covers. It is inaccessible, by which I mean that someone who doesn't have a lot of past experience with the game isn't going to be able to use it.

If you can get through these flaws, and you're determined, you'll find a set of tools that are so powerful that you could literally make any RPG campaign you could imagine. You can design any race, creature, vehicle, gun or "thing" you could ever desire. You could build an entire galaxy from the cosmic dust upward and populate it with aliens and creatures so bizarre that even Wayne Barlowe would be impressed. Any sci-fi book or movie you've ever read or seen can be brought to life with the tools contained in that Big Black Monolith called T5. The problem is that to do that, you have to slog through over 600 pages of poorly-organized and referenced ideas.

I am really hoping for a second edition of this book that addresses these problems. Again, I think the systems are amazing. The vision of T5 is incredible. I have and will continue to really enjoy designing and running games using this system, but I'm embarrassed to show this book to my friends and I cannot recommend it to someone who is anything less than a hardcore Traveller fan.

 

[LordRhys]

I am really hoping for a second edition of this book that addresses these problems. Again, I think the systems are amazing. The vision of T5 is incredible. I have and will continue to really enjoy designing and running games using this system, but I'm embarrassed to show this book to my friends and I cannot recommend it to someone who is anything less than a hardcore Traveller fan.

Even a Player's Book that concentrated on Character Generation (With more Races) and the game rules that players actually need (With Better Explanations) would be really helpful.

 

[Elianka]

Arrgh!



After reading most of the forums and threads I could find on various sites including COTI for the grand finally!

I have more doubts and worries o: than ever with my pledge.

I guess will know really somewhere around Mid June !

Éli,
:devil:

 

[rancke]

After reading most of the forums and threads I could find on various sites including COTI for the grand finally!

I have more doubts and worries o: than ever with my pledge.

I guess will know really somewhere around Mid June !

Éli,
:devil:

Did the four emoticon limit get upped?

It did! It did! It did! :rofl:

I wonder what the limit is now? <tries a whole string>. Ah! 10 it is. Much better.


Hans

 

[Original_Carl]

Even a Player's Book that concentrated on Character Generation (With more Races) and the game rules that players actually need (With Better Explanations) would be really helpful.

Agreed. A proper player's guide could address nearly every shortcoming I and others have called out.