Weapons, Ammo, Fuel and TLs

[Golan2072]

As far as I recall, alot of current-day (late TL7 to early TL8) weapons use ammonition which was invented and manufactured for decades if not more than a century (as early as TL5?), such as the 9mm parabellum/luger. New, almost-TL8 weapons such as the IMI Tavor TAR-21 use ammonition which was available for atleast 40 years, such as the 5.56 NATO rounds.

My conclusion is that ammonition (and possibly some spare parts?) can be manufactured in many cases in a TL lower than that of the weapon's introduction. This would have serious implications in the mixed-TL Traveller universe, in which there are many mid-tech (TLs 5-10) worlds and fewer high-tech ones (TL11+), as, for example, ammonition a TL7 assault rifle would be able to be produced in many more worlds, down to TL5. Am I correct?

Remember, in a Traveller universe, a weapon (or any other peice of equipment) which performs to higher-TL standards yet is maintainable/reloadable/refuelable on lower-TL worlds is a logistics advantage, as it shortens the supply lines.

On a related subject, what are the lowest TLs in which large quantities of fuel-grade ethanol, methane and hydrogen could be produced without extra-planetary assistance? And are refined petroleum-based fuels from different worlds (any world with a long history of organic, carbon-based life should have petroluem deposits) usable with the same internal combustion engine?

 

[parmasson]

On a related subject, what are the lowest TLs in which large quantities of fuel-grade ethanol, methane and hydrogen could be produced without extra-planetary assistance? And are refined petroleum-based fuels from different worlds (any world with a long history of organic, carbon-based life should have petroluem deposits) usable with the same internal combustion engine?

I would say Tech level 2-3 for ethanol because . . .
Alcohol production is distillation and that process has been with us for a long time. With simple instructions I think that Diesel fuel (bio-diesel?) can be produced from vegetable oils and grain alcohol. In this case I think that the cost would me much higher but quite doable. Don’t forget about the mass production of whale oil that occurs at TL-2&3.

At Tech level 4 alcohol production becomes a snap thanks to advanced steam engines. Petroleum products could be commonly available for the same reason. Hydrogen is “discovered” at TL-3 but I think that mass production would be out of the question. I would think that hydrogen and methane become commercially available at TL-4. High pressure pumps and vessels that can store gasses under high pressure both make their appearance on the market.

 

[parmasson]

My conclusion is that ammonition (and possibly some spare parts?) can be manufactured in many cases in a TL lower than that of the weapon's introduction. This would have serious implications in the mixed-TL Traveller universe, in which there are many mid-tech (TLs 5-10) worlds and fewer high-tech ones (TL11+), as, for example, ammonition a TL7 assault rifle would be able to be produced in many more worlds, down to TL5. Am I correct?

Yes but those replacement parts would not be as good as the originals. A TL8 precision engineered powdered metal gun part could be replaced by a TL5 iron or steel equivalent but it would be much more likely to break or rust. Frankenguns may be quite common on those worlds but I wonder how well they would hold up. Ammunition is less problematic. Drawn bass cartages are low tech disposable items that a TL5 world could produce. I would hazard a guess that gauss needles could be made at TL5 too.

 

[vegascat]

Gauss needles might be made at TL5, but the power packs could not. Caseless ammunition will be difficult for ACRs would be very difficult to make below TL8. As weapons grow more complex, the ammunition must be made to tighter tollerances to get full effect out of it. A computer aimed, gyrostabilized rifle will not have any useable accuracy if the bullets are not manufactured identically.

 

[Golan2072]

So, from what the three of you say, I draw the conclusion that Internal Combustion (up to MHD turbine if you're using Striker? or only to Gas Turbine?) vehicles produced at TLs 5-8 could be effectively refuelled on TL4+ worlds if they'll be based on either Ethanol, Methane or bio-diesel fuel.

And an Assault Rifle (TL7) would be a preferrable "colonial" weapon as it uses brass cartridges which could be made as early as TL5, as opposed to latter-era caseless ammo for ACRs.

 

[vegascat]

The ammount of ammunition expended in modern combat is measured in tons, not rounds.
If you know the conflict will last for a single engagement where the victory depends on that engagement then bring what ammo you will need for that engagement. Otherwise, be prepared to subsist on local manufacture. The same applies to fuel. Who can tell when your off planet supply lines will be cut, or by whom.

A soldier can exsist for weeks without food, days without water, seconds without ammo.

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

dont forget the TL-10 ACR can also fire the same ammo as the TL-7 Assualt Rifle of the same calaber, (source CT Book-4) although with some penilitys. and i think some rtplacement parts can be manafactured at TL-7.

Also concider that the AK-47was in part desigined to be manafactured in less than optuim condisions and infact there are examples of them beaing turnd out by people using TL-4 workshops but with a grasp of the TL-6-7 tech needed to make them.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

A good reason for using lasers and fusion-powered vehicles is that you don't need to worry about ammo and fuel.

Some kind of factory ship would be useful for producing ammo, fuel, spares, etc.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by 313:
dont forget the TL-10 ACR can also fire the same ammo as the TL-7 Assualt Rifle of the same calaber, (source CT Book-4) although with some penilitys.

It's not quite the same
The ACR is often used with locally produced 9mm slug ammunition, which uses the same damage and armour matrix as the 6mm assault rifle.

 

[parmasson]

"Some kind of factory ship would be useful for producing ammo, fuel, spares, etc."

A portable rear area then?
A 700kt lightly armed jump-2 ship complete with work force, multiple factories, smaller 2kt freighters, miners and the ability to produce anything from vat grown meat, to hull plates and ACR rounds.

I hear my HG book calling.

 

[vegascat]

quote:
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A portable rear area then?
A 700kt lightly armed jump-2 ship complete with work force, multiple factories, smaller 2kt freighters, miners and the ability to produce anything from vat grown meat, to hull plates and ACR rounds.

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A successful mercenary commander would love to get his hands on something like this, so would a pirate captain. Better put some effective weapons on it.

It would be most effective as a containerized kit consisting of a series of self contained shipping sized containers. This would be easily transportable by regular ships, could be made mobile in minimal time, could be configured as needed.

 

[parmasson]

Just thinking how this would work

So you find yourself on Menorb/Regina/SM C652998-7

Your 9mm ACR might not have too much trouble finding the right ammo
I propose the items will be available but at a slightly higher cost. Canon price modifiers can be found in JTAS #4 pg.6

I assume that the local government equips itself with higher tech stuff than can be produced locally just like developing countries that cannot produce F-16s but can buy them and use them for defense.
Since ACR ammo is superior to slugs I bet that that many locals would willing to pay for it and some trader is willing to ship it.

The government of Menorb will likely purchase some TL-10/11 SDBs and fighters for its own defense because TL-7spacecraft are useless.

My point is that unless the low tech planet you are on is under siege or out of contact with civilization for a long period of time private individuals and small merc. groups would not have to worry too much about higher tech ammo and supplies because chances are that the stuff is already there.

 

[Rossoneill]

Um arent 700KT ships a tad expensive for your normal merc unit to own .
If my merc outfit could afford a 700 Kt+ ship and all the manufacturing gear on it i would say its time to sell out ,split the cash and retire to a life of leisure and not being shot at anymore.

 

[parmasson]

Um arent 700KT ships a tad expensive for your normal merc unit to own .

just a tad (say MCr2,000 or so)

I was thinking of the Imperial Army or Navy using a portable space stating/factory when operating in low tech regions or outside the Imperium

Your merc unit could do the same thing on a smaller scale using a 200 ton free trader or far trader to act as a machine shop or ammo factory in remote areas of operation. Granted it is not as effective as floating city but something is better than nothing. If it were highly automated and staffed by a couple of robots to manage retooling you could do quite well.

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by Parmasson:
Yes but those replacement parts would not be as good as the originals. A TL8 precision engineered powdered metal gun part could be replaced by a TL5 iron or steel equivalent but it would be much more likely to break or rust. Frankenguns may be quite common on those worlds but I wonder how well they would hold up. [/QB]

Actually, one could argue quite the reverse. Looking at firearms today, versus those of 50-100 years ago, in many cases those earlier designs are much more durable. Older designs were often built rule of thumb and overengineered as opposed to modern design that are precisely engineered and nothing is made any stronger than necessary in the name of weight and cost reduction. Newer designs often feature castings and stamping because they are cheaper to produce than machined and forged parts.

I own a number of functional guns that are 100 years old or more. I wonder how many of these new wonder guns will still be shooting 100 years from now?

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by vegascat:
Gauss needles might be made at TL5, but the power packs could not. Caseless ammunition will be difficult for ACRs would be very difficult to make below TL8. As weapons grow more complex, the ammunition must be made to tighter tollerances to get full effect out of it. A computer aimed, gyrostabilized rifle will not have any useable accuracy if the bullets are not manufactured identically.

At TL6, you can make bullets that are so consistant that you can put 5 of them through the same hole, or close enough. Go to any benchrest match. And this kind of accuracy is totally meaningless in a military rifle, and is purely an artifice of the game system.

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by 313:
Also concider that the AK-47was in part desigined to be manafactured in less than optuim condisions and infact there are examples of them beaing turnd out by people using TL-4 workshops but with a grasp of the TL-6-7 tech needed to make them.

The AK, particularly in its later iterations was designed to be mass produced, not necessarily easy to make in primitive conditions. Much of the construction relies on stampings, which requires specialized dies and tools. Stamping is only a cost effective way to make parts if you are going to make a whole lot of them. The initial investment is big.

People didn't make AKs at the village forgebecause it's too hard and because the old Soviet union was giving them away by the boxcarload to anyone who was vaguely pro-communist. I have seen exactly one Panthan made AK - and it didn't work.

It's actually much easier to make an SKS with hand tools. Anything that uses complex stamping is a royal pain to try to duplicate, even with fairly advanced machinery (short of stamping dies and machines). For small runs, it's usually much cheaper to just machine the parts from stock.

Locked breach semi-autos are a real pain, sinvce they tend to blow up if you don't do everything right - not just make the part right, but use the right steel and the right heat treat.

Harrington and Richardson, a contractor for the M14 rifle and a fairly experienced gun firm, had a number of their rifles blow up becaus the wrong steel was used.

You can go down tech levels. But don't go down too far. And lower tech doesn;t mean less complex manufacturing techniques. Just because you can take something that made in a factory at TL7 and make it in a TL 5 factory , that doesn't mean you can make it in a TL 5 workshop.

For that matter, try making a TL5 Garand in a TL 8 workshop. Not going to happen. You need some serious and very specialized tools.

 

[vegascat]

The best source for weapons in the last couple hundred years has been a large ntion upgrading it's military with a newer weapon. Selling boatloads of weapons can defray costs and giving weapons away will create friends dependent on you for ammunition.
The usual weapon type produced by people without heavy manufacturing capability has been improvised bombs. Explosives are relatively easy to make, compaired to guns. The ingredients are hard to control due to legal and common uses such as fertilizer, fuels, or cleaning products.

 

[vegascat]

The best source for weapons in the last couple hundred years has been a large ntion upgrading it's military with a newer weapon. Selling boatloads of weapons can defray costs and giving weapons away will create friends dependent on you for ammunition.
The usual weapon type produced by people without heavy manufacturing capability has been improvised bombs. Explosives are relatively easy to make, compaired to guns. The ingredients are hard to control due to legal and common uses such as fertilizer, fuels, or cleaning products.

 

[Todg]

Absolutely, Vegascat.

Both Sam Cummings and Adnan Kashoggi made millions reselling surplus military gear. Doubtless there's plenty of money to be made in the Traveller universe by reselling arms.

You'll appreciate this quote from http://weapons.travellercentral.com, from a decsription of a particular Solomani issue rifle:

The Solomani State Industries flechette rifle represents a highly effective, low-tech low-cost alternative to the gauss rifle. The flechette rifle fires a 2mm fin stabilized dart at velocities in excess of 1500 meters per second. The weapon fire either single shots or 3-round burst at a rate of about 2000 rounds per minute. The weapons is composed of polymer and alloy components, with a 40 mm smoothbore carbon-fiber reinforced ceramic barrel.

No longer in general military service with Solomani forces, the Confederaton goverment and SolSec have provided millions of these rifles to sympathetic or anti-Imperial worlds. The unique nature of the ammunition requires sophisticated, large scale manufacturing in order to be cost effective, thus requiring client states to be reliant on the Confederation for resupply.