Weapon v. Armor Competition

[Sneaky Git]

Is it me.. or does armor seem just a "tad" generous? I mean, honestly, shouldn't a TL-12 Gauss Rifle, (T20 p203) "The ultimate development of the slug thrower," have a better chance of dropping an armored opponent?

TL-12 Gauss Rifle firing controlled 4-round bursts = 4d12 damage.

Against even a moderately-armored opponent (TL-7 Flak ) you're only doing 1 d12 of damage. Here's my problem with this.. I've just hit you with multiple rounds from the best slug thrower ever and, if you're just an average Joe (assume an 11 CON), I have a 1 in 6 chance of killing you? And we don't even want to consider a TL-appropriate Combat Armor..

Where's the love?

Sure, you could make all of your rounds SLAP (saboted, light armor-piercing), as some have already noted.. but the costs are prohibitive (cost is x10 for each +1 AP and another x10 for HE... we're talking thousands of credits for a single magazine.

I know that IMTU I can do whatever I want.. that's not the point. I'm just questioning T20 canon. Although wepaon damage has remained pretty true to CT, penetration has all but dropped out of the picture. Why was this?

 

[DrSkull]

Don't forget the Stamina side of the equation. THe dude is also going to take an average of 28 points of Stamina. That is going to leave a 5th level marines unconscious on the ground, ready to be finished off.

 

[apoc527]

Originally posted by DrSkull:
Don't forget the Stamina side of the equation. THe dude is also going to take an average of 28 points of Stamina. That is going to leave a 5th level marines unconscious on the ground, ready to be finished off.

Not that we really need to get into another argument about T20 game mechanics, but I find the inclusion of Stamina to almost be silly. I mean...first of all, if you are wearing combat armor and some mook hits you a few times with his pistol, you are NOT going to care. Not even a little bit (unless he hits you in the eye, but we're assuming it's bouncing *harmlessly* off your TL13 armor plating)- I don't understand why you take Stamina damage. This means that no matter what armor you are wearing, you can be knocked out by a pistol! I also don't understand how one gets "knocked out" by a laser beam anyway. The problem with Stamina is that it tries to be Hit Pointish at the same time it tries to be Vitalityish. You can't have both abstractions at the same time. Then it all starts to REALLY break down (IMO).

Back to the original poster's gauss rifle example. That is one of my largest gripes with T20- penetration seems to have dropped to nil for almost all weapons. Armor seems WAY too good because of this. I think I'm just going to give all weapons a "Natural AP" bonus because that's what they should really have. A gauss rifle of TL12 (the best slugthrower ever firing high density darts!) should ALWAYS penetrate anything less than full combat armor if you ask me.

Now then, DEFENDING the current game mechanics, I will say this- if you do the armor calculations BEFORE rolling, you DO mess with the rules slightly. Don't forget, you are supposed to take away the LOWEST dice first, meaning that you are always left subtracting damage from the highest die. I'm not quite sure on the math about how this messes with probability calculations, but it's going to be far more likely that the guy ends up taking 10-12 lifeblood than 0-3 lifeblood.

In case that's not clear, let's your example of the flak jacket (AR3, I'm assuming)-

If you roll damage and get 5, 8, 1, 11, then the you take away the 5, 8, 1, and he takes 11 full lifeblood damage (and as DrSkull points out, 25 Stamina). So, in the end, I'm not sure how "broken" it really is. Don't get me started on single shots though...while gauss rifles still have more penetrating ability simply because they get two chances to get a high die roll, they still don't penetrate quite like I think they should (note that my experience with Traveller is limited to GURPS...which is definitely coloring my opinion somewhat).

 

[DrSkull]

The thing is, if you are wearing armor and someone hits you with an axe, the armor will prevent you from getting cut (Lifeblood damage) but it will still feel like you were hit with a baseball bat (Stamina damage).

People in kevlar armor who are shot by bullets get bruised up and knocked down, but they don't die. I think Stamina/Lifeblood models this quite nicely.

 

[Sneaky Git]

Originally posted by DrSkull:
The thing is, if you are wearing armor and someone hits you with an axe, the armor will prevent you from getting cut (Lifeblood damage) but it will still feel like you were hit with a baseball bat (Stamina damage).

People in kevlar armor who are shot by bullets get bruised up and knocked down, but they don't die. I think Stamina/Lifeblood models this quite nicely.

Kevlar is a wonderful thing, to be sure. As far as protection from relatively low velocity projectiles (i.e. pistol rounds, buckshot, shell fragments, etc.), Kevlar is King. It was designed to stop these types of projectiles and does so admirably well.

It is true that a pistol will leave a nasty bruise... It will not, however, necessarily knock you down...or kill you. It won't, in fact, render you combat ineffective. So, that's one "dodgey" element to the Stamina/Lifeblood and armor issue.

Combat armor (or any similar "hard" armor -- kevlar is "soft") throws this even further out of whack. Even less energy should bypass a rigid armor than a flexible one. One could assume, therefore, that a rigid armor would preclude you from taking the same amount of stamina damage as you would if you were sporting a spiffy kevlar vest...that's why some law enforcement agencies and the military use hard ceramic inserts to reinforce the vests currently in use.

Regardless of the above, however, Kevlar begins to have problems with higher velocity projectiles. Serious problems. High velocity rifle rounds (900+ m/s) do what they are supposed to. They defeat personal body armor at reasonable ranges. They go through kevlar...ruining the wearer's day. And here is the crux of one of my problems: high velocity rounds should penetrate armor far more easily than low velocity ones.

 

[gardclan]

One solution that you might try would be to apply a damage bonus to the dice. In the case of the gauss rifle (2d12, or 2-24 pts) could be switched to 2d10+4 (6-24 pts). This shifts up the damage probability somewhat, but also reserves the +4 for penetration damage alone (i.e., its not associated with a die for DR purposes).

Using the above example, rolling out the dice for the 4 round burst (+2 dice in the damage pool), with results of 5, 8, 1, & 10 (since the 11 is no longer possible). The lower dice drop, leaving the 10 + 4, which results in 14 possible lifeblood damage. Cloth armor further reduces this by the 3 remaining AR to a total of 11. This is just about enough to put most average characters near the edge death.

Interpretation: the first three rounds chewed up the armor, and the last one hit home.

The single slug would have 2d10+4 damage, assuming rolls of 5, and 6 (average), this nets 15 stamina and (6+4-5=5) 5 lifeblood damage.

Interpretation: the round penetrated, but lost some energy on the way through the armor.

Another possible solution is to regard the damage bonus for the concentrated burst to be "sets of base damage", instead of the (as written) bonus dice. Under this solution, your 4 round burst (+2 to hit or +2 dice sets) generates 6d12 damage (2d12 for each set, one set to start with, two extra sets).

Assuming average rolls for the two extra dice from your example, (5, 8, 1, 11, 6, & 7), you now drop the lowest five dice (AR=6) and one point from the last die, for a lifeblood damage of 10 and stamina of 38. Not quite as nasty as the die bonus method, but much heavier on the stamina damage.

Also, with low level characters you stand the risk of zeroing out the stamina and rolling that damage over into lifeblood as well. (I.e, if the poor target only had 30 stamina to begin with, you just dumped an extra 8 into the lifeblood for a total of 18... pretty much dead.)

YMMV.

 

[apoc527]

I agree with Mr. Git here. I don't dispute that you should take Stamina damage when wearing "Soft" armor, but I *DO* dispute it when wearing "Hard" armor. It's not that big a deal to quickly go through and say which armor is hard and which is soft and then to just allow Hard armor to subtract from Stamina damage in the same manner it subtracts from Lifeblood damage. This will go a long way towards fixing this irritating little problem. At least someone in combat armor isn't in danger of getting knocked out by 5 rounds from an autopistol (the critical hit can still happen, and that's fine by me). How about this-

From T20Lite (since my T20 book is at home), the follow armor is considered "Hard" and its AR is applied to any Stamina damage the character takes as well-

Hostile Environment Suit, Combat Armor (Full Plate would count as well). I'd also rule that AP effects (even natural ones that I propose below) never affect Stamina reduction. In other words, armor always gets its full AR for Stamina damage if "Hard").

As for the higher velocity weapons, I'm not sure what the answer is. You can't have them just deal higher base damage, because that would make them deadlier than they really are (penetration doesn't always equate with stopping power or killing ability). Hence, the answer is rather obvious- "base AP" values for all weapons chambered in a rifle round or for all gauss weapons (and Lasers and plasma weapons, if I have my way in my group).

I wouldn't even bother with TL calculations. If we just do this, for example-

Rifles only-
Damage.....Base AP
1d8..........1
1d10.........2
1d12/2d8.....3 <--Gauss Pistol
2d10.........4
2d12.........5 <--Gauss Rifle/MG

This is more like it! Then, real AP ammunition just stacks onto this. What do you think Sneaky Git?

 

[apoc527]

Originally posted by Darth Sillyus:

Also, with low level characters you stand the risk of zeroing out the stamina and rolling that damage over into lifeblood as well. (I.e, if the poor target only had 30 stamina to begin with, you just dumped an extra 8 into the lifeblood for a total of 18... pretty much dead.)

YMMV.

I'm fairly sure that Stamina damage never transfers over to Lifeblood damage, even when Stamina is 0. I could be wrong about that, and if I am, then why have the AR system for Lifeblood subtraction at all? For that reason, I'<wait> ...just found it in T20Lite. Ouch. I didn't realize that. Hehehehehe. Joy!

Ok, then in that case, I'm gonna say that your alternate autofire attack is REALLY deadly. I think they really did mean just add a number of dice of damage, not "sets" of dice and hence an autofiring gauss rifle does 4d12, not 6d12. However, see my previous post about penetration. It should give approximately the same result as your 2d10+4 damage idea, but without the increased effectiveness against unarmored personnel. And I do think stuff will overpenetrate, and not do as much to unarmored people.

I just realized something else too. This means that lasers and plasma/fusion guns just became really scary again. If extra Stamina damage goes directly to Lifeblood, then the 9d20 of a FGMP-15 is, well, quite deadly to anyone in anything less than Battledress. Speaking of battledress, do you take Stamina damage in it?

 

[Vanguard]

Another part of armor that people have so far neglected to mention is that armor reduces the the chances to hit. This makes armor even more effective.

When I run a game of T20, I'll probably be changing a few things:

1: Armor doesn't add to AC.
2: Defense bonuses by class (check out the Grim n' Gritty D20 combat rules at http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/srd/sleepingimperium/downloads.htm to get an idea of what I'm talking about, though I probably won't use those rules exactly) (The psi and martial arts rules from that page are pretty nice too)
3: Armor gives damage reduction dice rather than actually reducing dice directly. By having the defender roll a fixed die size for his armor, you're reflecting the fact that armor is more effective against less powerful projectiles. To extend the previous examples:

Attacker hits target with Gauss rifle and rolls damage of 5, 8, 1, 11 (25 total)
defender rolls 3d6 for armor: 2, 5, 4 (11 total)

defender takes lifeblood damage of 14 (25-11) and full 25 Stamina damage.

This would let you have armor absorb lighter armor better and make high-power rounds more deadly. You could also scale armor value by TL by changing its base dice (Early experimental Cloth might only be with d4/point, whereas TL 16 SuperCloth might be d8)

 

[Sneaky Git]

Originally posted by apoc527:
Rifles only-
Damage.....Base AP
1d8..........1
1d10.........2
1d12/2d8.....3 <--Gauss Pistol
2d10.........4
2d12.........5 <--Gauss Rifle/MG

Hmm.. this certainly takes steps towards addressing the problem. I might have to give it a try.

Originally posted by Darth Sillyus:
One solution that you might try would be to apply a damage bonus to the dice. In the case of the gauss rifle (2d12, or 2-24 pts) could be switched to 2d10+4 (6-24 pts). This shifts up the damage probability somewhat, but also reserves the +4 for penetration damage alone (i.e., its not associated with a die for DR purposes).

This could work too. Nice.

Originally posted by apoc527:
I just realized something else too. This means that lasers and plasma/fusion guns just became really scary again. If extra Stamina damage goes directly to Lifeblood, then the 9d20 of a FGMP-15 is, well, quite deadly to anyone in anything less than Battledress. Speaking of battledress, do you take Stamina damage in it?

I would say no to this. Battledress should protect its wearer from all but the most high velocity of rounds. Applying stamina damage seems a bit counterintuitive.

I might also consider using the "No Hit Points Combat Rules" found at The Sleeping Imperium

Thanks for the responses!

 

[apoc527]

Actually, I've just come to a revelation. Since I hadn't realized that Stamina damage went to Lifeblood after all your Stamina was gone, I was calculating things very incorrectly.

This leads me to an entirely new line of thought- perhaps T20 is *too* deadly. I was doing some calculations in my head, and I've determined that a 5th level Marine in TL14 Combat Armor (AR8) is going to be DEAD DEAD DEAD after taking 2 4 round bursts from a gauss rifle. How, you might ask?

Simple! 4d12 damage vs AR8 two times will produce about 6-7 points of Lifeblood damage. THEN, you have to deal with Stamina damage (now I realize what DrSkull was trying to tell me...). This is, on average, 52 points of Stamina damage. A 5th level marine is going to have about 35 Stamina, assuming a Con of 12 (so he's down to ~6 Lifeblood at this point). This means (over two 4-round bursts) he'll take an excess of 17 Stamina, dropping him to -11 Lifeblood from the second burst. So, as you can see, basic, unmodified T20 is extremely deadly. I begin to question the purpose of Lifeblood now, but that's ok.

Note that if you use my system and allow the standard AR reduction for Stamina damage for Hard armor, then you get the same final result (dead marine), but you get it slightly differently. His Stamina is not going to ever come into it, as he'll still have positive Stamina at the end of the two 4-round bursts. However, he'll have effectively taken 2d12 damage directly to Lifeblood, and those d12' are *likely* to be 8-12s instead of 1-2's. So, on average, he's taking about 14-16 Lifeblood. Not quite as "DEAD" as the unmodified T20 rules, but still dying.

So, now I'm no longer sure if I'll mess with it at all. It's really, REALLY deadly. Heh. Heh. Hehehehehehehehe!

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Vanguard:

<snip>
You could also scale armor value by TL by changing its base dice (Early experimental Cloth might only be with d4/point, whereas TL 16 SuperCloth might be d8)

That's an interesting idea, mind if i borrow it? <yoink> never mind

You could even use it for partial armor (half dressed in a hurry for example), less than perfect armor (several holes from high power rounds in a previous encounter) or improvised armor (a sheet of steel hung on rope, hidden under your poncho of course and that btw is a good, if hollywood, example of stamina damage dealt by a non-penetrating (i.e. all dice absorbed) high power round to hard armor, go rent "A Fistful of Dollars" if you haven't seen it.)

 

[apoc527]

Originally posted by Sneaky Git:
[QBI would say no to this. Battledress should protect its wearer from all but the most high velocity of rounds. Applying stamina damage seems a bit counterintuitive.

[QB]

I would agree. In fact, I'm certain you don't take Stamina damage while in Battledress. It's considered a vehicle after all. Battledress is cool that way.

Still, I'm now seriously considering doing NOTHING at all to T20's rules. If I did anything, I would probably go with my Natural AP idea instead of the direct adds to damage. My main problem with converting stuff from 2d12 to 2d10+4 is that you start doing too much damage to unarmored people. That and you take away the chance of getting a grazing hit (rolling 1+1=2) and that's never good. I usually find that adding directly to damage doesn't have the intended effect. With my AP system, the weapons aren't any *more* effective against unarmored people, but have increased capabilities against armored foes. I've also decided that if I do use the AP system, I'm going to slightly reinterpret Stamina and allow ALL armor some sort of defense against Stamina damage. How's this for starters-

Soft Armor: AR reduction in Stamina damage (DR style, NOT standard T20 rules).

Hard Armor: ARx3 reduction in Stamina damage (once again, DR style).

This would give Cloth armor a "DR" of 6 against stamina damage and TL14 Combat Armor a "DR" of 24 against stamina damage. Anyway, that's just an idea.

 

[Vanguard]

Yoink all you want, all I ask is for credit where it's due.

It definitly needs some tweaking, as I'm not sure what to use for the "base" die, though d6 or d8 sound about right. I'm at work, so a detailed analysis of this system as compared to the standard system and current T20 weapon damage rules is left as an exercise for the reader.

 

[apoc527]

Ok, I've made my decision (for now). In my game (feel free to yoink this for your own games), I'm going to use the following House Rules-

I'm going to utilize my aforementioned Natural AP rules. I'll probably adjust them a bit, but I don't plan on giving pistols/SMGs/Snub guns a Nat AP rating. I'll definitely give lasers and *probably* plasma guns some kind of AP rating based on their TL. I'll post it all later in this very thread.

Secondly, I'm also going to use my idea about the "DR" vs Stamina damage for armor. Straight AR for Soft armor and ARx3 for Hard armor. Now that I realize Stamina damage eventually flows over into Lifeblood (which I don't plan on changing), it's possible to "beat" a Combat Armored marine to death with a snub pistol firing ball ammo. This, to me, is not the intention of the Stamina/Lifeblood system. Armor in Traveller is good, and unless you are being hit with a very high powered weapon or a hail of bullets, you are probably going to come away relatively unscathed. I understand the intent of the Stamina system, and this is why I'm leaving Soft armor not completely immune to pistol ammo.

AP ammunition can still be purchased, but since it is now so expensive, it will probably not be used by everyone. That's ok, and realize that even an another -1 to armor is going to be fairly significant, stacked with most rifles already impressive ability to penetrate armor.

In the case of a critical hit, the character's armor is ignored and he takes Stamina damage as per the normal rules.

 

[Secrect Cow Level]

If you want rigid armor to protect better against weapons fire than soft armor, why not say that attcks only inflict half damage against rigid armor? Thus an attack that inflicts 24 Stamia against soft armor (like cloth) only does 12 Stamia against rigid armor (like combat armor or a flak jacket). This quick, simple rule also makes pistol whipping someone in combat armor harder than it is in the offical rules.

 

[gardclan]

The method I'm curently using (after one session so far) is as follows:

1. Stamina/lifeblood rules unmodified.
2. Critical hits DO NOT ignore armor, but the damage multiplier is applied to the damage pool instead of the result (2d6 w/ x2 crit becomes 4d6)
3. Rigid armor reduces stamina damage and lifeblood damage equally.
4. Battledress (being a vehicle) eliminates all stamina damage from small arms fire UNLESS lifeblood damage is taken from a hit... then revert to #1 above.

 

[apoc527]

Originally posted by Darth Sillyus:
The method I'm curently using (after one session so far) is as follows:

1. Stamina/lifeblood rules unmodified.
<snip>
4. Battledress (being a vehicle) eliminates all stamina damage from small arms fire UNLESS lifeblood damage is taken from a hit... then revert to #1 above.

That's clever. That means that a single hit from a plasma gun will probably vaporize a trooper in one hit.

I'm still confused on one thing, that nobody seems able to agree upon. When battledress takes damage, does it go to SI or the wearer?

Let's do an example- I have two Imperial marines who just got ticked at each other for no reason. They both shoot one another with their FGMP-15's. This is 9d20 damage each vs AR 15. So, on average (figuring good chance of rolling 18-20), they each will take 12 Lifeblood OR the armor takes 12 SI. Now, if we use Darth Sillyus's rules and assume they take Lifeblood, they ALSO take something like 95 Stamina damage, meaning they just died really bad (but the armor might not be super destroyed either.).

Anyone know?

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning apoc527,

Below the body of the post is my take on the question.

Originally posted by apoc527:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Darth Sillyus:
The method I'm curently using (after one session so far) is as follows:

1. Stamina/lifeblood rules unmodified.
<snip>
4. Battledress (being a vehicle) eliminates all stamina damage from small arms fire UNLESS lifeblood damage is taken from a hit... then revert to #1 above.

That's clever. That means that a single hit from a plasma gun will probably vaporize a trooper in one hit.

I'm still confused on one thing, that nobody seems able to agree upon. When battledress takes damage, does it go to SI or the wearer?

Let's do an example- I have two Imperial marines who just got ticked at each other for no reason. They both shoot one another with their FGMP-15's. This is 9d20 damage each vs AR 15. So, on average (figuring good chance of rolling 18-20), they each will take 12 Lifeblood OR the armor takes 12 SI. Now, if we use Darth Sillyus's rules and assume they take Lifeblood, they ALSO take something like 95 Stamina damage, meaning they just died really bad (but the armor might not be super destroyed either.).

Anyone know?</font>[/QUOTE]My take is that the armor SI would take the brunt of the hit, with the body Lifeblood taking anything not stopped by the armor. The only time, based on CT through G:T, is if a Meson Gun is used, then the body would take the damage if the meson gun beams are properly focused.

 

[lightsenshi]

I have tweeked these rules a bit to make them a bit less deadly. In my experience the average goon, lifeblood 10 and stanima 20, lasts about 2 or 3 combat rounds.

During combat we subtract dice before rolling. Also, we subtract from both lifeblood and stamina damage.