Wanderer: Oar and Sail

[aramis]

1. blue ghost originally brings up the waka, a TL 1 quasi-lateen.
1.a. wilful misattribution is rude and/or dishonest. I assume it wasn't wilful, and am proceeding upon that assumption.
2. rotary helix turbines can be used to sail straight into the wind. (Scientific American & Popular science both have had articles.)
2.a. they are considered a form of sail whem mounted on a ship.
2.b. they can be used to drive a screw, or to power the vertical rotors of a rotorship
2.c. the water resistance allows for harnesing wind to sail into forward-forward-side (FPF & FSF) points on rotorships without in water drives, while Lateen rigs usually are described as only hitting the quarters (PF & SF), while square has troubles much past side-side-forward points (SSF & PPF).
3. horizontal sails can be set to drive any of a variety of reciprocation systems by use of airfoil collapse methods at apex. these can be used to drive screws, flippers, or paddlewheels.

Many consider wind power to wet drive modes not to be sailing. But the do get right-of-way over motorcraft.

Rotorships are modern, but are doable with much lower tech. Age of steam, or maybe 1700's. The correct modes of rigging could make them doable in lower TLs, possibly even Roman.

Rotary Helix drives, also modern, really require at least age of steam mechanical efficiency.

In both cases, the tech side is pretty straightforward, but the theory was derived from aircraft aerodynamic studies.

Rising Wing systems can be done at TL 2... but they are horrible conversions of wind to motive power. And require sufficient wind, but not too much.

 

[atpollard]

Since we are discussing personal experience sailing, let me contribute...

I have been day sailing a fair number of times (more than ten, less than a hundred) and hope some day to tack into the wind without putting the boat in irons.

Having said that, I would respectfully request that the appeals to vast personal experience be kept to a minimum. It is straying dangerously close to an appeal to authority and, frankly, is something of a wet blanket on any discussion.

 

[Vladika]

1. blue ghost originally brings up the waka, a TL 1 quasi-lateen.
1.a. wilful misattribution is rude and/or dishonest. I assume it wasn't wilful, and am proceeding upon that assumption.
2. rotary helix turbines can be used to sail straight into the wind. (Scientific American & Popular science both have had articles.)
2.a. they are considered a form of sail whem mounted on a ship.
2.b. they can be used to drive a screw, or to power the vertical rotors of a rotorship
2.c. the water resistance allows for harnesing wind to sail into forward-forward-side (FPF & FSF) points on rotorships without in water drives, while Lateen rigs usually are described as only hitting the quarters (PF & SF), while square has troubles much past side-side-forward points (SSF & PPF).
3. horizontal sails can be set to drive any of a variety of reciprocation systems by use of airfoil collapse methods at apex. these can be used to drive screws, flippers, or paddlewheels.

Many consider wind power to wet drive modes not to be sailing. But the do get right-of-way over motorcraft.

Rotorships are modern, but are doable with much lower tech. Age of steam, or maybe 1700's. The correct modes of rigging could make them doable in lower TLs, possibly even Roman.

Rotary Helix drives, also modern, really require at least age of steam mechanical efficiency.

In both cases, the tech side is pretty straightforward, but the theory was derived from aircraft aerodynamic studies.

Rising Wing systems can be done at TL 2... but they are horrible conversions of wind to motive power. And require sufficient wind, but not too much.

No, it wasn't willful.

Still your claim for the the waka doesn't hold true.

Aside from that, moving to the Magnus Effect, it is hardly a fair comparison to your claim for the waka and it's sails, or any other triangle sail you either named or care to name.

As for the Magnus, it DOES NOT "sail" directly into the wind. It can however turn a propulsion screw to achieve that end result. That transfers to mechanical propulsion.

Following completion of its trials, the Buckau set out on her first voyage in February 1925, from Danzig to Scotland across the North Sea. The rotors did not give the slightest cause for concern in even the stormiest weather, and the rotor ship could tack (sail into the wind) at 20-30 degrees, while the vessel with its original sail rig could not tack closer than 45 degrees to the wind.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotor_ship

I'm well versed in the Magnus Effect for both sail and tugboat propulsion and station keeping for drilling rigs and salvage barges etc.

BTW, you still continue to fail to provide any verifiable source for these claims.

"Scientific American & Popular science both have had articles" is quite true, but, neither made any claim for sailing directly into the wind.

As an aside a mine clearing barge pulled by an helicopter has right-away though not sailing. Good luck seeing it at night from a small boat though. (Experience sailing in Hampton Roads near the Norfolk Naval Bases.)

 

[Timerover51]

I think that Robject is looking more for historic vessels from prior to about 1500, which sort of limits things to square rig verses fore-and-aft rigs.

In Jack Coggins book, Ships and Seamen of the American Revolution, there is a diagram comparing the ability of square-rigged ships and fore-and-aft rigged ships to sail into the wind. Square-rigged ships are shown sailing 2 points, or 22.5 degrees into the wind, with fore-and-aft rigged ships shown as sailing 4 points, or 45 degree into the wind.

I will get out my copy of Howard Chapelle's book, The Search for Speed Under Sail, and see if he has any additional information. That book covers American sailing ships, both on the ocean and the Great Lakes, from 1700 to 1855. While later than what Robject is looking for, it still will give a good idea of what is possible.

 

[Piper]

The bit on sailing ships in Mercator is nice and short. So what I'm aiming for is a ship description that will get my group of player characters from one port to the next, in this sort of manner...

You might want to take a look at some of the web resources covering the Kyrenia II. Sounds like the type of ship you're looking for.

http://kyrenia-collection.org/resources/PDF_Files/Great-Moments-Tzalas-reduced.pdf

and a rather lengthy youtube video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QF_ANWcEWY

For warships, the Olympias might be worth a gander:

http://www.trireme.org/

 

[Vladika]

Square-rigged ships are shown sailing 2 points, or 22.5 degrees into the wind, with fore-and-aft rigged ships shown as sailing 4 points, or 45 degree into the wind

That goes exactly with my claim for a vessel with a square sail doing better than a beam reach (0 deg) but less than a close reach (30 deg).

 

[robject]

Updated the OP with the beginning of the ship design rules.

 

[Jame]

Updated the OP with the beginning of the ship design rules.

When you are done with this, I would like to challenge you to use this for a game (play-by-post or by-email as I would like to participate).
An entirely new campaign would likely be best, though in the setting you have already.

 

[tim_manley]

This exchange is why I like this forum and keep coming back to it after being absent for a while.

I enjoy the technical depth y'all can provide.

I have been working on a Wanderer game of my own on and off for quite a long time. I think it's funny we both came up with Wanderer but then, Traveller to Wanderer is an easy jump.

I didn't know Mercator existed and have just read that guy's site and downloaded it. I'll have to take a read, looks very interesting.

I have been running my 16 year old and his friends in a Pathfinder game for almost 2 years now. I have finally gotten them to agree to have me run them in a one-shot traveller game. And I've talked about the character generation system since it is so unique. They're game once I finish my fantasy version (work + kids = 0 time).

I'd love to see your full system and would even playtest it for you if you like.

 

[robject]

When you are done with this, I would like to challenge you to use this for a game (play-by-post or by-email as I would like to participate).

@Jame: as always, I appreciate your feedback and offers to playtest! I enjoyed your participation on our earlier Wanderer sessions.

Once I feel I have a month's worth of free time, I'll get the gang back together and we can run a dozen sessions here on COTI again.

This exchange is why I like this forum and keep coming back to it after being absent for a while.

[...]

(work + kids = 0 time).

I'd love to see your full system and would even playtest it for you if you like.

@Tim: Of course, and of course.

 

[Timerover51]

Are you carrying this forward into what would be called the Golden Age of Piracy circa 1680 to 1720? If so, I have some data on what the ships traveling from Spain to the New World and back would be armed with and some probable cargoes.

 

[robject]

Are you carrying this forward into what would be called the Golden Age of Piracy circa 1680 to 1720? If so, I have some data on what the ships traveling from Spain to the New World and back would be armed with and some probable cargoes.

Probably not, unless it is easy to do. As I mentioned earlier, these are not wargaming rules. I leave that to people interested in wargaming.

 

[FreeTrav]

If you got it from Freelance Traveller, it's legitimate there, too, though Paul might have done some revision since the version that was published with that issue of the magazine.