volume for man portible weapons on vehicles
- Thread starter slyen2002
- Start date
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Hi slyen2,
I looked at this a while back and went with a straight kg = vl based on noting that the LMG in both sections (pg. 200 and pg. 247) are identical for TL, cost, damage, rof, and range. The only difference is one is 5.5kg and the other is 5.5vl.
Of course despite this and a couple other revelations* in digging around the book I'm not convinced this is correct but it works well enough.
* for example:
1 - The lowberth in the vehicle and ship sections cost the same and presumably function the same the difference is the first is rated as 500vl and the other is 0.5 Tons. This would lead me to think that 1000vl = 1 Ton. The official conversion though is 1400vl = 1 Ton.
2 - Compare the vehicle Heavy Beam Laser and Heavy Pulse Laser to the ship Beam Laser and Pulse Laser. The TL, costs and damage (adjusted for size) are the same. The difference is the vehicle ones are 1000vl (each) while the ship ones fit in 1 Ton (up to three in a turret). See the similarity?
I get the feeling some of the components were copied into the vehicle section using a straight 1000vl = 1000kg = 1 Ton. How simple and easy it would all be if that was the real way to do it. And how consistant. I'm tempted to just believe that is the case and ignore anyone (even Hunter) who says otherwise
But then there'd be so much I'd have to check and correct
I looked at this a while back and went with a straight kg = vl based on noting that the LMG in both sections (pg. 200 and pg. 247) are identical for TL, cost, damage, rof, and range. The only difference is one is 5.5kg and the other is 5.5vl.
Of course despite this and a couple other revelations* in digging around the book I'm not convinced this is correct but it works well enough.
* for example:
1 - The lowberth in the vehicle and ship sections cost the same and presumably function the same the difference is the first is rated as 500vl and the other is 0.5 Tons. This would lead me to think that 1000vl = 1 Ton. The official conversion though is 1400vl = 1 Ton.
2 - Compare the vehicle Heavy Beam Laser and Heavy Pulse Laser to the ship Beam Laser and Pulse Laser. The TL, costs and damage (adjusted for size) are the same. The difference is the vehicle ones are 1000vl (each) while the ship ones fit in 1 Ton (up to three in a turret). See the similarity?
I get the feeling some of the components were copied into the vehicle section using a straight 1000vl = 1000kg = 1 Ton. How simple and easy it would all be if that was the real way to do it. And how consistant. I'm tempted to just believe that is the case and ignore anyone (even Hunter) who says otherwise
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
A little off slyen2's original topic (my reply that is) but...
Casey </font>[/QUOTE]Quite
Especially the way I like my lowberths, as a self contained mobile grav supported unit with independant powersupply. So add those support features to the vehicle lowberth (or rather build a small vehicle of 700vl with those features and the 500vl lowberth) and you have your, er, my tu version. It's much like the old magazine article described them for MT.
In mtu you can haul lowberths and emergency lowberths (old article mentioned they were just oversized for cattle) in the cargo hold, just not for passengers (not legally
). For (paying) passengers you need a dedicated room big enough for your rated capacity.
When the ship is built you "buy" your rated capacity of lowberths. Then each time you get a low passage it may be fresh (a live person approaches you and you install them in the lowberth) or frozen (you accept a lowberth with an occupant and swap it out for one of your empties). And at the other end your popsicle may be defrosted by you if they have arrived at their destination or kept frozen if they are going further. They may travel on with another ship if you are not still going thier way in which case the port will transfer an empty lowberth from the warehouse to fill your slot, your choice of charged up(1) for Cr100, or dead(2) for free.
(1) so you can use it anytime it has the charge pack of meds and cryos good for one cycle, minimal power sustains it indefinitly
(2) so you need to load a charge pack before you can use it
I should also note that half of that volume (vl or tons) is the actual lowberth while the other half is empty space for access and such, so that kinda fits the vehicle vl conversion used in the TA's
...For the lowberth differences it's possible [handwaving] those are two different versions or a ship needs some extra room/precautions [/handwaving].
Casey </font>[/QUOTE]Quite
In mtu you can haul lowberths and emergency lowberths (old article mentioned they were just oversized for cattle) in the cargo hold, just not for passengers (not legally
). For (paying) passengers you need a dedicated room big enough for your rated capacity.When the ship is built you "buy" your rated capacity of lowberths. Then each time you get a low passage it may be fresh (a live person approaches you and you install them in the lowberth) or frozen (you accept a lowberth with an occupant and swap it out for one of your empties). And at the other end your popsicle may be defrosted by you if they have arrived at their destination or kept frozen if they are going further. They may travel on with another ship if you are not still going thier way in which case the port will transfer an empty lowberth from the warehouse to fill your slot, your choice of charged up(1) for Cr100, or dead(2) for free.
(1) so you can use it anytime it has the charge pack of meds and cryos good for one cycle, minimal power sustains it indefinitly
(2) so you need to load a charge pack before you can use it
I should also note that half of that volume (vl or tons) is the actual lowberth while the other half is empty space for access and such, so that kinda fits the vehicle vl conversion used in the TA's
Tekrat04
SOC-11
You guys are confusing volume and weight.
They are not the same.
1 vl does not equal 1 kg.
The low berth does not mass 0.5 tons, It displaces 0.5 ton of liquid hydrogen. In other words it take up 7 cubic meters (m3). It does not weigh 0.5 ton.
The equation: 1 dton = 1400 vl has nothing to do with mass. It's strictly about volume.
1 dton = 1400 vl = 14 m3
This means that 1 vl takes up 0.01 m3 or 10 liters.
1 vl does not equal 1 kg.
The low berth does not mass 0.5 tons, It displaces 0.5 ton of liquid hydrogen. In other words it take up 7 cubic meters (m3). It does not weigh 0.5 ton.
The equation: 1 dton = 1400 vl has nothing to do with mass. It's strictly about volume.
1 dton = 1400 vl = 14 m3
This means that 1 vl takes up 0.01 m3 or 10 liters.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
No no, not at all Tekrat04. I don't think any of us are confused and know the two are not the same but the relationship is right there and works (or should if we are to infer any consistency in the rules) as an easy way to add other man portable weapons to the vehicle design rules.
Perhaps to be clear I should have used dTons but you'll note even the book doesn't, it's a given that when speaking ship design it's volume not mass.
Perhaps to be clear I should have used dTons but you'll note even the book doesn't, it's a given that when speaking ship design it's volume not mass.
Tekrat04
SOC-11
If there was a relationship between vl and kg it would be called density. The problem is that density varies to much from object to object to make that assumption.
A quick example using 2 items I have on hand here, my Oxford English minidictionary and a 2 liter plastic jug.
The Oxford minidictionary measures 8 by 12 by 3.5 cm and weigh 150 g. This gives it a volume of 0.336 liters and a density of 0.446 kg/l.
The 2 liter plastic jug has a dimention of 10 by 10 by 26 cm and weigh empty 60 g. The volume needed to store that jug within another container is 2.6 liter. Empty this gives it a density of 0.023 kg/l. If it contained 2l of water the density would go up to 0.792 kg/l. If we were to replace the water with gasoline then the density would go down to 0.7 kg/l.
A vl according to THB is 10 liters. If you make the assumption that 1 vl = 1 kg, then you would get a density of 0.1 kg/l.
Now tell me honestly does that jives with the example listed above?
I get what you're saying Tekrat04 and have had basic science classes
but p. 253 of the THB, Vehicle Structural Integrity chart has a column heading that says weight or volume. There's also a similar heading on the equipment SI chart on p.210. Also the vehicle Traveller Aides state: "A vehicle’s loaded weight in kg is equal to its size in vls. To get an empty weight, subtract 100kg for each passenger and 1kg for each 1vl of cargo", i.e. 1kg = 1vl.
It looks to be an abstraction for game purposes.
Casey
It looks to be an abstraction for game purposes.
Casey
Tekrat04
SOC-11
I would not go by thoes charts. If you read the text for the equipment SI it says that SI is based on weight(p.211). In the vehicle section (p.252-253) according to the text SI is based on volume. There is a contradiction here. Every other charts keep the two as separate entities. At the begining of the Design Sequence (p.223) in the description of units weight and volume are clearly listed as two completely separate item.Originally posted by Casey:
I get what you're saying Tekrat04 and have had basic science classesbut p. 253 of the THB, Vehicle Structural Integrity chart has a column heading that says weight or volume. There's also a similar heading on the equipment SI chart on p.210. Also the vehicle Traveller Aides state: "A vehicle’s loaded weight in kg is equal to its size in vls. To get an empty weight, subtract 100kg for each passenger and 1kg for each 1vl of cargo", i.e. 1kg = 1vl.
It looks to be an abstraction for game purposes.
Casey
As for the TA the author decided to change the rules and the editor let him get away with it. The end result is just more confusion.
I think i may just do it 1kg=1vl for simplicity's sake on my part.
i realize that is very unrealistic but i am not very good at science* and it would just take to much time on my part to try and figure it out. however this brings about a question:
would a black globe stop a mass driver and if so what would the effects be?
Like i said i am not very good at science, escpeically at physics or chemistry but i can see (in somewhat limited terms) how thing are supposed to work. besides im much better at biology the physical sciences (well at least thats how my school classsifies them as)
* note i am not good in most things either, however i am good at using computer software and playing games when not coming up with new ideas for thins like the "jump on to your oppent's head, bounce off and land on both feet behind" techneqiue which only works 25% of the time.
i realize that is very unrealistic but i am not very good at science* and it would just take to much time on my part to try and figure it out. however this brings about a question:
would a black globe stop a mass driver and if so what would the effects be?
Like i said i am not very good at science, escpeically at physics or chemistry but i can see (in somewhat limited terms) how thing are supposed to work. besides im much better at biology the physical sciences (well at least thats how my school classsifies them as)
* note i am not good in most things either, however i am good at using computer software and playing games when not coming up with new ideas for thins like the "jump on to your oppent's head, bounce off and land on both feet behind" techneqiue which only works 25% of the time.
I just checked both versions of FF&S. FF&S2 states: "Weapon volume (for installation in a vehicle) is 1 liter per kilogram of weapon mass (1 cubic meter per metric ton)." FF&S1 adds for installation or transportation. Page 99 of FF&S1 and page 40 of FF&S2.
TNE used liters as the basic unit for volume, T20 uses vl. For purposes of the game 1kg = 1 vl or if you must 1kg = 1/10 vl should work. As shown below however T20 looks to assume a 1:1 density relationship.
I'll note you've yet to respond to a T20 LMG weighing 5.5 kg on page 200 and taking up 5.5 vl on p. 247. So in T20 man-portable weapons have a density of 1kg per 1vl. If you disagree perhaps coming up with an alternative equation would be more productive?
Casey
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I have thought for a long time now that the vl scale itself is broken.
The way it is used within the book confirms this.
The LMG example shows that 1vl=1kg, no doubt, but 1vl=10litres, again no doubt.
Does an LMG have a density of 0.1kg/l? I doubt it.
Is it 1kg/l? More reasonable.
Then there's the matter of a human in battle dress. 100vl for the human operator? That's 100kg mass in 1000litres, again for a density of 0.1kg/l.
I think that somewhere along the line 1vl was interpreted as 1litre
The way it is used within the book confirms this.
The LMG example shows that 1vl=1kg, no doubt, but 1vl=10litres, again no doubt.
Does an LMG have a density of 0.1kg/l? I doubt it.
Is it 1kg/l? More reasonable.
Then there's the matter of a human in battle dress. 100vl for the human operator? That's 100kg mass in 1000litres, again for a density of 0.1kg/l.
I think that somewhere along the line 1vl was interpreted as 1litre
