Victoria/Lanth

[Timerover51]

While working on another idea that I had, I got out my collection of the Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society to look over the article on the planet Victoria in the Lanth subsector of the Spinward Marches. (Note: Journal #2 was the first item of Traveller material that I ever purchased.) Looking over it again after a long while and then looking at the information in the Traveller Wiki leads to a bit of confusion over its exact characteristics.

The Journal article was written by Marc Miller, which in my view, makes it the primary source of information on the planet, over-riding any other data. He gives it a UPP of X697770-4, which agrees with the Spinward Marches supplement. He then states:

Victoria is a moderate-sized planet measuring 11,000 kilometers (8000 miles) in diameter at the equator; equatorial circumfurence(sic) is 34,400 kilometers.

Now, a size 6 world is approximately 6000 miles/9600 kilometers in diameter, a size 7 world is about 7000 miles/11,200 kilometers, and a size 8 world is about 8000 miles/12,900 kilometers in diameter. The given circumference of 34,400 kilometers matches a world of 10,950 kilometers, so just under 11,000 kilometers. Out of the three sizes, I am leaning towards assuming a diameter of 7,000 miles is correct, as that is what the circumference is based on.

So, my first question is, what size is Victoria?

Second question is, what is the Tech level?

The article and the Spinward Marches supplement (copyright 1979) both give it a Tech Level of 4. The planet inhabitants are using lighter-than-air airships for transportation, which would be Tech Level 4 based on LBB 3, Worlds and Adventures, The Traveller Book and Starter Traveller. However, the Traveller Map has it listed at Tech Level 2, which would put it in the 1400-1700 equivalent Earth-development period, which does not match the airship use at all. The Traveller Wiki also gives it a Tech Level of 2, but the sources cited do not include the JTAS article.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Wiki is always the first source to discard if you are looking for Canon answers. Assume the published UWP is correct unless you decide that there are Ancient shenanigans going on. Fooling sensors in orbit would be child's play...

 

[rancke]

Not all canon is equally good. Leaving aside the paramount concern expressed in my sig, if you have mutually contradictory canonical statements, some of them must be wrong, even if TPTB prefers to ignore the problem (as has happened in the past). The real problem comes when someone other than TPTB is forced to make a choice, because none of us has the authority to point at one statement or the other and say "I hereby declare this bit of canon null and void!!" All we can say for sure is that two mutually contradictory statements can't both be true in the same universe; we can't say for sure which one it is (though we sometimes forget that and state our preferred version as the truth ).

(Note that for individually self-contradictory statements we can say that they can't be true.)

It's usually said that the most recent version is the current canon, but that only applies if the change is deliberate; if it's a mistake the original statement is still the current canon and someone submits an errata to Don.

Next, I personally feel that text trumps UWPs. If there is an actual writeup of a place (and there's no specific reason to disregard it (e.g. it stinks on ice, there's copyright issues, the contradictory canon is itself a writeup and it's better)) then it seems to me to be a real pity to lose a perfectly useable piece of setting material.

In the case of Victoria/Lanth, I would go with the facts as they are set forth in the description and adjust the UWP to match. I suggest submitting it to Don as errata.


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

TheT5 Second Survey data at Traveller Map, and the Traveller Wiki articles also marked as updated (all of the Spinward Marches has been updated) are "canon".

The World Building Handbook (for MegaTraveller) and the updated version for TNE both broke technology levels into more discrete elements. See Technology level comparison chart for examples. And it allowed the level of individual technologies to vary from the world's baseline by 1 to 3 levels (depending upon specificity).

I've never had problems with individual aspects of technology varying from stated normal of the world. For example, having dirigibles and flying craft on a TL2 world. Victoria doesn't have sailing ships because they have no access to large bodies of water. And not a lot of space for road building either.

 

[rancke]

TheT5 Second Survey data at Traveller Map, and the Traveller Wiki articles also marked as updated (all of the Spinward Marches has been updated) are "canon".

It could still be a mistake. I mean, why would Marc Miller want to change Victoria's high common tech level from 4 to 2? And just how does an interdicted world with a TL of 2 (or 4 for that matter) get a class D starport, indicating the social ramifications of maintaining a starport and the ability to perform minor repairs on starships?

The World Building Handbook (for MegaTraveller) and the updated version for TNE both broke technology levels into more discrete elements. See Technology level comparison chart for examples. And it allowed the level of individual technologies to vary from the world's baseline by 1 to 3 levels (depending upon specificity).

But why change a TL4 society into a TL2 society with a two level advance in air tech? Is there a problem with Victorianites being equipped with TL4 implements instead of TL2?

I've never had problems with individual aspects of technology varying from stated normal of the world.

Me neither. But in this particular case I see nothing to be gained from contradicting previously published material. I believe that if it's not broken, it's a mistake to change it.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

I believe that if it's not broken, it's a mistake to change it.
Hans

And I feel that Marc* has the philosophy that "If I didn't break it the first time, I'll get around to it sooner or later."

* "What's the use of being Emperor of my own Universe if I have to follow my own rules"

 

[tjoneslo]

The Journal article was written by Marc Miller, which in my view, makes it the primary source of information on the planet, over-riding any other data. He gives it a UPP of X697770-4, which agrees with the Spinward Marches supplement. He then states:

So, my first question is, what size is Victoria?

Use the UWP, consistent across all the sources, which states size is 6, or 6000 miles in diameter. The article text is incorrect.

 

[Timerover51]

TheT5 Second Survey data at Traveller Map, and the Traveller Wiki articles also marked as updated (all of the Spinward Marches has been updated) are "canon".

The World Building Handbook (for MegaTraveller) and the updated version for TNE both broke technology levels into more discrete elements. See Technology level comparison chart for examples. And it allowed the level of individual technologies to vary from the world's baseline by 1 to 3 levels (depending upon specificity).

As I have neither the World Building Handbook for MegaTraveller or the one for TNE, I go with what I have in hard copy, which is the Classic series of books. I am not a fan of MegaTraveller, for many reasons, and really dislike the TNE rules, so I guess that I am not inclined apply their systems to the Classic rules that I am working off of.

I've never had problems with individual aspects of technology varying from stated normal of the world. For example, having dirigibles and flying craft on a TL2 world. Victoria doesn't have sailing ships because they have no access to large bodies of water. And not a lot of space for road building either.

In the article, some of the mesas are described as being 100 kilometers by 100 kilometers in size, and 10,000 square kilometers is about the size of the Earth island of Cyprus. Roadways on Cyprus, according to the 2012 CIA World Fact Book, total 14,671 km. As the canyons between the mesas are described as being between 500 meters and 2000 meters wide, and the Carboxyl taint requires a week to reduce dexterity by 1, movement by land between the mesas appears distinctly possible. As the planet was originally settled by sub-light human colony ships, it would appear reasonable that Earth farm and transport animals would have been brought along and be present. Horse-powered railroads using wooden track would appear to be quite conceivable.

As for ocean travel, given the slow acting of the Carboxyl taint, short voyages appear to be quite possible for characters with high natural dexterity, as long as the seaport has ready access to a mesa. As you have settlements on two continents, Huxley and Maxwell, with two distinct areas of settlement on Huxley, some form of ocean transport crossing the relatively narrow strait between the two continents appears quite reasonable, if not mandatory, to cover the period prior to the use of airships.

Edit Note: I also do not have any of the GURPS books of any sort.

 

[tjoneslo]

As I have neither the World Building Handbook for MegaTraveller or the one for TNE, I go with what I have in hard copy, which is the Classic series of books. I am not a fan of MegaTraveller, for many reasons, and really dislike the TNE rules, so I guess that I am not inclined apply their systems to the Classic rules that I am working off of.

If you are inclined to hunt down books you would want to find Grand Survey and Grand Census, which are later combined (and updated for MT) in World Builder's Handbook.

I don't have access to the original article.

Does the article make reference to the metal eating phage, or otherwise explain the restriction on importing metal items?

GT: Behind the Claw article on Victoria makes reference to a hydrogen filled balloon plant large enough to make small transports. Is this from the original article?

 

[rancke]

Does the article make reference to the metal eating phage, or otherwise explain the restriction on importing metal items?

There is no metal eating phage. Victoria is just metal-poor. The UWP would seem to explain the restriction: Victoria is interdicted.

GT: Behind the Claw article on Victoria makes reference to a hydrogen filled balloon plant large enough to make small transports. Is this from the original article?

Yes.


Hans

 

[tjoneslo]

GT: Behind the Claw article on Victoria makes reference to a hydrogen filled balloon plant large enough to make small transports. Is this from the original article?

Yes.

So there is the aerial natural equivalent to logs for making dugout canoes. The usual infrastructure requirements and scientific discoveries for developing balloon and dirigibles has been short circuited. And there is an environmental impetus to use it.

I think the biggest reason for the TL-4 to TL-2 drop is the repeated metal-poor world references. Maintaining a TL-4 technology requires a fair amount of easy access to metal. TL-4 assumes steam engines, trains (on steel rails), Ironclad ships, metal armor, guns, etc. How Victoria maintains TL-4 with no easy access to metal is a much harder on the disbelief suspenders than a TL-2 world with access to a natural hydrogen balloon plant having simple dirigibles.

 

[rancke]

I think the biggest reason for the TL-4 to TL-2 drop is the repeated metal-poor world references. Maintaining a TL-4 technology requires a fair amount of easy access to metal. TL-4 assumes steam engines, trains (on steel rails), Ironclad ships, metal armor, guns, etc. How Victoria maintains TL-4 with no easy access to metal is a much harder on the disbelief suspenders than a TL-2 world with access to a natural hydrogen balloon plant having simple dirigibles.

You don't need to implement all features of a TL X society to be TL X.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

I think the biggest reason for the TL-4 to TL-2 drop is the repeated metal-poor world references. Maintaining a TL-4 technology requires a fair amount of easy access to metal. TL-4 assumes steam engines, trains (on steel rails), Ironclad ships, metal armor, guns, etc. How Victoria maintains TL-4 with no easy access to metal is a much harder on the disbelief suspenders than a TL-2 world with access to a natural hydrogen balloon plant having simple dirigibles.

I'm curious. If Maintaining a TL-4 technology requires a fair amount of easy access to metal. And, as you postulate, the LACK of those metals lowers the TL, the question becomes "How did the planet RISE to the higher TL in the first place?

 

[rancke]

I'm curious. If Maintaining a TL-4 technology requires a fair amount of easy access to metal. And, as you postulate, the LACK of those metals lowers the TL, the question becomes "How did the planet RISE to the higher TL in the first place?

Thomas is arguing in favor of retconning Victoria's tech level from 4 to 2 in 1105. That it never was TL 4. (It must have been interstellar tech at some point in the past but regressed technologically to 0 and slowly advanced to TL 2 where it stuck for lack of metal).

I think that you can have self-propelled vehicles with less metal than we historically used for railroad rails and locomotives. There probably won't be railroads.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Thomas is arguing in favor of retconning Victoria's tech level from 4 to 2 in 1105. That it never was TL 4. (It must have been interstellar tech at some point in the past but regressed technologically to 0 and slowly advanced to TL 2 where it stuck for lack of metal).

I think that you can have self-propelled vehicles with less metal than we historically used for railroad rails and locomotives. There probably won't be railroads.
Hans

Probably not railroads in the current sense. But, monorails would work very well. For reinforced concrete metals are not required, just a strong enough substitute. Bamboo is often used in Asian countries with excellent results. Addition of Psyllium to wet concrete drastically improves it's strength.

Supposing a "grade beam" construction, with minimal moment inducing spans, essentially no shear with properly placed foundations and due to continual lateral support next to no torsional problems, this would work very well.

Pneumatic tires, as used at Disney World's monorail, would work well. Tires can be made in most primitive conditions should the need arise. (See the African campaign of German General Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck. His forces made their own rubber tires while continuing to evade British forces for years.) The current PSI loads for over-the-road-trucks (Lorries) could be used.

Also the monorail beams would require far less reinforcement material than a comparable highway.

As for power, I could see even a TL 4 society using overhead or third rail electricity for motive power. (conceivably at lower common TLs)

Admittedly, I haven't even looked at the world under discussion, just proffering some available low tech solutions. I'd think that if a society could power a dirigible against wind currents there would be the ability to propel land transport of the above nature.

If the knowledge was given to, or remembered by, the world, it should be able to implement the above in short order.

 

[rancke]

The big question is, I think, not how much metal it takes to maintain a TL 4 society but how much it takes to maintain a Tl 5 society. Is it more than you need for TL 4? If it is, Victoria can have enough metal for TL 4 but not enough for TL 5. And a world that doesn't have enough metal to maintain a TL of 5 can be said to be metal-poor, can't it?


Hans

 

[Vladika]

The big question is, I think, not how much metal it takes to maintain a TL 4 society but how much it takes to maintain a Tl 5 society. Is it more than you need for TL 4? If it is, Victoria can have enough metal for TL 4 but not enough for TL 5. And a world that doesn't have enough metal to maintain a TL of 5 can be said to be metal-poor, can't it?
Hans

I agree entirely. Like we both know current Earth technologies, and current usages of the same, are NOT all that are available. A case in point is light rail and monorail, particularly in the US New England corridor. (as well as in MANY urban areas). It is both economical and feasible, but, the powers that be aren't going to allow it to happen for the foreseeable future. Same can be said for local and moderate distance mass transit. The ground between divided highways are already public domain, but... Current economic powers aren't going to allow the "Upstarts" to play.

Without attempting to tread on the "political" end of things, I feel some regulation is essential, but, when it is stifled by 'that isn't the way we do things', it has gone beyond any legitimate purpose.

Having now read the Wiki Victoria/Lanth I can see no reason to not have that world progress using alternative technologies that would be available to it. The RED ZONE and current interdiction practices do however suggest something more is going on there.

 

[Timerover51]

The big question is, I think, not how much metal it takes to maintain a TL 4 society but how much it takes to maintain a Tl 5 society. Is it more than you need for TL 4? If it is, Victoria can have enough metal for TL 4 but not enough for TL 5. And a world that doesn't have enough metal to maintain a TL of 5 can be said to be metal-poor, can't it?


Hans

It will take a lot more metal to maintain a TL 5 society, as for that you almost have to have steam power or internal combustion machines. However, I can see maintain TL 4 with minimum amounts of metal. Some railroads in the South during the Civil War were still using wooden rails with metal straps over them (for more information see The Railroads of the Confederacy by Black}. As for an initial metal source, the article states:

Victoria was probably settled by sublight colonial ships in the early pre-lmperium era, around 1450 PI.

If sublight ships, they would be fairly substantial and carry a large amount of resources for a colony, and would be an immediate source of metal. I would have to do some research as to how difficult it would be to extract aluminum from ores using early chemistry.

Having now read the Wiki Victoria/Lanth I can see no reason to not have that world progress using alternative technologies that would be available to it. The RED ZONE and current interdiction practices do however suggest something more is going on there.

There is a major Ancient site on Victoria's moon, Albert. The site includes the controls for bringing three asteroids of unknown size and composition into either orbit of Victoria or to crash them into the planet as metal sources. As such, the Imperium wishes to conceal the fact of the bases existence. That is one reason why I argue in another thread that Grandfather was not nearly as thorough as claimed when it came to destruction of Ancient sites.

 

[Vladika]

Some railroads in the South during the Civil War were still using wooden rails with metal straps over them (for more information see The Railroads of the Confederacy by Black.

These certainly were in use BUT highly dangerous. The metal rail often came loose from the wooden rail and pierced the floorboards of passenger cars. When this happened, they were called "snake heads" and killed or maimed whole carloads of riders as well as wrecking trains.

When used, these roads, of necessity, must use lower speeds than the motive power would otherwise pull. Engines of that time were pretty primitive and inefficient too. Trains, on a zero grade, could rarely pull even twenty of the small capacity boxcars of the day. Eight to Ten cars were a good average.

Fuel, mostly wood, was loaded every 10-12 miles, at times less. Water every 20-30 miles.

Still, you work with what you've got.

 

[rancke]

It will take a lot more metal to maintain a TL 5 society, as for that you almost have to have steam power or internal combustion machines. However, I can see maintain TL 4 with minimum amounts of metal.

The sort of alternate technology that you would find on a world like Victoria and the costs of what would be ordinary metal implements on other worlds is just the kind of detail I would love to be able to provide my players, but have far too little knowledge on the subject to make up myself. I wish SJG would publish GURPS Alter-Tech some day. Or that Mongoose would publish a sourcebook about alternate technology.


Hans