Vehicle Maker Confusion and Confustication!
- Thread starter david.wendelken
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
That gas was produced as a by-product of coke production. It depends on whether or not you count that as a petrochemical or not.
It was purposely produced for lighting. Chemically, can be the same. So, who cares?
david.wendelken
SOC-12
That makes sense. Yet we have a working example in the Hindenburg, a late 1930's vehicle, that could cruise at 125kph and with a max speed of 135kph.
Speed "2" in T5 is 10kph! That's quite a mismatch in capabilities between VehicleMaker and a known, real-life, workable LTA vehicle.
I read somewhere that a Traveller ton of liquid hydrogen volume takes up about 500 cubic feet, or an area about 7ft tall, 8 ft deep and 9ft wide.
The Hindenburg's 7,062,000 cubic feet of gasbag equates to a 14124 T vessel, or a bit over 141 Type S 100T scout ships in size.
That doesn't count the cupola size, which could carry 124 passengers and crew. I don't know how much cargo space there was.
LTA VehicleMaker rules say the cupola would be about 1/10th the size of the gasbag, or in this case, 1412.4T in volume. The real Hindenburg had a lift capacity of 511,500 lbs or about 255.75 tons of weight. That would have to have included the fuel tanks necessary for powering some thirsty TL5/6 diesel engines. A TL 10 fusion powerplant would weigh less than the fuel, plus have the added advantage of maintaining a near-consistent weight. That makes it easier to make an LTA vehicle work.
That's correct. My character is developing plans for upping the TL of a world. Off-planet tools and technicians would have to be imported to support the imported fusion plants. Part of that maintenance contract would be to train 3 times as many apprentices as the company actually needs. My character expects that as she imports additional fusion plants into the country, those apprentices will change jobs to other companies that want to use the fusion plants, too, or to locally operated fusion power maintenance companies. Either way, the ability to work with this ubiquitous modern power source is increased.
However, by building the rest of the vehicle locally, it will cost less and not tie up foreign currency reserves. More of it will be maintainable locally.
One of the important things to understand about TL on a planet is that it's an imperfect measurment to begin with, and an especially imperfect measurement for a planet that has access to "How To" materials from higher tech levels. My character doesn't have to wait for a DaVinci to be born in order to invent fusion power or how to process titanium. All she has to do is order some "books". Heck, with a bit of luck, she might get a bunch of what she needs from library sales at planets with higher techlevels really cheap!
Some "higher level" processes might not be possible with tools built at lower tech levels, but quite a few of them can be. For some purposes, those differences in manufacturing capability would nix the project. For others, they would make it bulkier and more expensive. For others, it wouldn't matter at all.
If I can process titanium ore and make lightweight struts for the LTA vehicle, it doesn't necessarily matter that the ore and the resultant metal isn't up to TL15 processing purity levels. It will still be way better than steel or wood.
For something like a silicon chip, yep, it might make the difference between success and failure, or just the huge price/volumne difference between transistors and radio tubes.
david.wendelken
SOC-12
Went and looked it up in T5:
Tech Level 6 is 1950s and early 1960s technology.
FusionPlus is a Tech Level 11 technology.
Tech Level 6 is 1950s and early 1960s technology.
FusionPlus is a Tech Level 11 technology.
This exactly.
Well it would be better to say that Earth/Terra was at TL6 in the 1950's. A lot of the technology actually in common use was from earlier tech levels but certain technologies like Nuclear Fission, Electronics (transistors) become standard, early and experimental version were available at lower TLs but TL6 is the "base" TL for them.
FusionPlus is available at TL11 and will not be available at TL7 or lower. Its worth noting for your scenario that the FusionPlus module is a sealed discreet unit that only needs refueling during annual maintenance and will power a Size 6 object for one year (a Hindenburg-alike will be Size 7). So its a good candidate for import and setting up a monopoly (I'm reminded of the Marconi Company from reading your business plan).
The bad news (or tasks for Travellers to overcome) is that the FusionPlus module only produces electrical power. This means that you need cabling/wiring and electric motors to transform the electrical output into motive power. Some of those technicians you're importing should be Electricians capable of wiring up a TL11 FusionPlus module into a TL5 or TL6 vehicle. If you're using hydrogen for lift there might be sparks
Looking forward to hearing how your campaign goes.
Some of those technicians you're importing should be Electricians capable of wiring up a TL11 FusionPlus module into a TL5 or TL6 vehicle. If you're using hydrogen for lift there might be sparks
Electrical output is electrical output.
Sure it is. But is it safe just to wire a TL11 FusionPlus module into a TL5/6 vehicle wiring loom? The F+ module is a powerful generator, a normal TL5/6 will not normally be equipped with the power management, surge protection and fuses that a TL11 vehicle would have. OP is designing his LTA vehicle from the start to use an F+ module but that means the TL6 power distribution will be different to what is considered standard for a TL6 vehicle that has a wet battery or generator as its standard power source.
Just looking at Generators and FusionPlus on p.624 F+ seems to be an order of magnitude more powerful.
Its not important but it does make an interesting bit of colour to the story of introducing these Fusion powered LTAs to a world.
Umm, sure they would. The generator has a range of output. It doesn't matter if it TL 4 or TL 15. Once you have the specs (we're talking a small fusion generator after all.) you just design the wiring and circuit to handle those ranges. This is REALLY simple electronics. There isn't TL 11 electricity and TL 5 electricity after all. Have you designed electronic circuits? At TL 5 there are multi-megawatt generators...
david.wendelken
SOC-12
If you're using hydrogen for lift there might be sparks
Definitely will be using Helium, not Hydrogen! The Hindenburg (1930's) was actually designed with the intention of using Helium. But the US Government wouldn't allow the sale of that much Helium to Nazi Germany, so it was changed to use Hydrogen.
My character, Imaah Chehesti, has recently been appointed as the Baroness of Byret/Mora (or will be once Marc sends out the corrections to the Kickstarter cards
). Imaah Chehesti was also the Imperial Marine General in charge of putting down an insurgency on the planet not many years earlier. A lot of the surviving insurgents probably hate her guts (even though she and her troops actually were very well disciplined and treated the population very properly). The corporate types who own Byret's current resource base also hate her because she put down the insurgency without supporting the property owners - she actually tricked a bunch of them into parting with their property for pennies on the Credit (and donated said property to fund the care and education of orphans on both sides of the conflict).
No way on earth would she introduce vehicles filled with millions of cubic feet full of flammable hydrogen gas!
One of the things that interested me about Byret/Mora is how little has been written about it in the entire history of the Traveller game. The original Spinward Marches booklet showed it was the homeworld of an alien race, the Larianz. But this incredibly small snippet is all I've ever found written about the race - until this very minute!
"Status Minor Race
Classification flyer
Size 1.2m
Weight 35kg
Homeworld Byret (Spinward Marches 2523)
Multi-world no
Canon no
Reference
The Larianz are descended from four-limbed flyers native to Byret. They stand approximately 1.2m tall, massing some 35kg on average. The upper limbs are large wings, which when folded are also used for ground locomotion (the Larianz effectively stand, and walk, on their "elbows"). The lower pair of limbs are modified for manipulation
"
However, while looking for the above quote at http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Larianz, I found this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=u0Vjh5vtL7kC&pg=RA4-PA17&lpg=RA4-PA17&dq=byret+mora++larianz&source=bl&ots=WlOfdC1x0Y&sig=Zuxtnu5e4FibJd_XnJIv2w7WAkM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4wSQUo_cBrTHsATX04HwBQ&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=byret%20mora%20%20larianz&f=false
Anyway, the Larianz are flyers and I thought they might make interesting flight crew members, not to mention guides to tourists entering an area via parachute or glider from the LTA vehicles I'm designing. Haven't read the blurb above, but I'm about to!
david.wendelken
SOC-12
Forgot to add that the Larianz disappeared from later surveys of the Spinward Marches, then appeared again. There has to be some fun to be had from that.
I'm definitely not saying electricity varies by tech level. In fact we're making the same point from different directions, that the lower TL system will have to be designed to take into account the characteristics of the higher TL equipment. I haven't designed circuits since university but I have had all the fuses on a light aircraft pop in flight
And yes at TL5 they have multi-megawatt generators, but they're not usually carried aboard airships. Weight and trim are very important considerations for airships. My original point was that integration of the FusionPlus makes a good strand to roleplay using Electronics and Engineer (Power Systems) skill checks to design and construct the protype.
Boo! Never reduce the potential for dramatic explosions. :rofl:
Airships and flight capable native intelligent life, that sounds great.
Baroness Chehesti (love the Marine reference there) might want to consider using one of those airships as a personal HQ and rapid response unit with so many former(?) insurgents hating her guts.
It's too simple of a task to even require a roll if the person is an engineer and has the output specs. But sure. You could have them RP building it. The smallest fusion pack isn't multi-mega watt btw.
david.wendelken
SOC-12
My idea was to use the electric power from the Fusion+ units to drive electric motors to power the propellers. (And for the cabin lights, instrumentation, etc.)
One of the problems the diesel powered airships had was they got lighter as the diesel fuel was used up. They had to bleed out hydrogen or helium in order to reduce buoyancy. Of course, that meant they had to pay for more hydrogen/helium when they refilled their diesel fuel tanks. A near constant weight fusion+ module completely sidesteps the issue.
As long as we don't toss waste products overboard as the passengers and crew eat their way thru the ship's stores, the onboard weight should remain fairly constant. I believe a mechanism to deal with smaller order of magnitude weight changes (without bleeding out gas) can be built into the airship. (The Hindenburg had planned to have something like that).
Good idea. It's a no brainer for even an electrician given that he has the "owners manual" for the Fusion+ unit. Would not require knowledge above TL 5.
If these were imported they could be used to replace hydrocarbon PP's in most TL 5 vehicles easily. Just have the company open up a repair center. Send you F+ unit and you send them a refurbished unit and repair the one they sent you.
david.wendelken
SOC-12
As a GM, I agree with you! As an experienced combat Marine, my character would add the proviso that dramatic explosions on the enemy are awesome.
She actually sympathised with the rebels and felt they had legitimate grievances. She was unable to get the local power structures to cut a reasonable deal and end the fighting in a peaceful manner.
She made sure that all her troops were polite both to the local populace and to captured insurgents. She scrupulously kept every promise she (or her soldiers) made to the locals and interpreted all such agreements in favor of the locals - after making them realize that she had other options. Insurgent casualties were actually quite low because, once they massed around the starport thinking her command was routing off planet, she was able to beat them in one big lop-sided fight. All the best insurgent positions had been pre-targeted and prepared for demolition. The news reports in the linked article didn't mention it, but many of the rebel positions were taken because they were hit by knockout gas. So, rebel positions were fairly light.
Her plan is to lay out a plan to improve living conditions on Byret for the local workers by funding off-world scholarships, improving on world education, setting up a low cost planetary satellite data and entertainment network (with free access to technical training materials), and making significant business investments to employ and train local workers. Her goal isn't so much to make money with those businesses (though she wants them to be competitive businesses for long term surviveability), it's to increase employment opportunities and technical training away from local, exploitive agri-businesses.
Her plan is to gather key ex-rebels together and explain her plan. To prove she's serious about improving their lot, she will offer ex-rebels positions on her staff and also offer half of the positions in her huscarles to local ex-rebels. Obviously, she'll do due diligence and some serious, heart-to-heart interviewing. But the locals will know if she doesn't keep her promises, they will have the ability to kill her without too much trouble.
She will offer 32 4 year off-world college scholarships plus a $100,000 on-planet small business grant upon graduation. Scholarship topics include Trade & Commerce, Industry, Agriculture, Environmental Science, Political Science, Art, Science, Law, Journalism, Military Academy, plus an Other category to allow for student creativity.
She will set up an annual planetary moot and randomly select individuals from each area to represent their area in the moot to be held on her estate. There will be 800 moot representatives out of a population of 8,000,000, or about 1 per 10,000 people.
Moot districts are designed via a geographic algorithm that takes into account the travel time/travel routes between moot areas as well as population disbursement. Moot attendees are picked at random from plantetary census rolls rather than elected. (She wants to avoid setting up a political class.) Chehesti wants regular citizens to give advice as to what they need to make their life better. Those selected to attend the moot receive an invitation letter, a pamphlet that explains how the moot will be organized, the parliamentary rules that will govern its deliberations, a letter to their employer requesting "for the good of the Imperium and of Byret" that the employer provide full cooperation and a postage paid oath of office/acceptance/rejection letter to sign and return (along with two photos of themselves). If the appointment is rejected, the appointee is requested to explain why they cannot fulfill their civic duty.
Those that accept their appointment to the moot receive a poster they can display on their door that identifies them as a moot representative, travel expense vouchers, and a moot "passport" that requests all and sundry to assist them in travelling to and from the moot.
So, her plan depends upon the rebels realizing that she is acting in their best interests so they'll have a lot of good reasons to make sure she stays alive, particularly from the local agri-business owners.
Her plan to deal with the local agri-business owners is to offer them good investment terms into the businesses she will be setting up. Some of the businesses will be designed to make the agri-businesses more profitable by reducing the transport cost to market or to improve the yield in an eco-sustainable way. So, as they lose money because they have to pay their workers more (and treat them better) or lose them to Chehesti's businesses, they'll make more money from Chehesti's businesses to compensate them.
Initial Businesses she sets up will include a Micro-Loan business so regular people can get small loans to enable them to set up a small side business or improve their current one. The communication/entertainment/education businesses already mentioned plus inexpensive devices to access the new network. A Convention center for the moot and for other industrial, tourism or social functions. Improvements in port facilities and bulk water/rail transport from the farms to the ports. Improvements in the Starport's ability to load bulk cargo. A set of workshops with advanced manufacturing tools that operate much the way a gym membership does. Citizens can join the workshop and be trained how to use the tools. They can then use the tools to make items for their own use for for resale. Schools can use it as an inexpensive trade school shop. (It's a way to get trained individuals for industry.) Fishing and mining. Boat, ship, rail and airship manufacturers, plus tool manufacturers and small, custom manufacturing shops. Metal processing and helium factories. An agricultural college to focus on agri-business improvements, plus tourism-oriented businesses like an ocean park, aquariums, airports, artisan districts, museums, an art college, natural parks.
She'll also be very careful to write the contracts so they will lose lots of money if she or her family or heirs are assassinated. It's always a good plan to be worth more alive than dead to your enemies...
david.wendelken
SOC-12
If you're wondering how a retired General can do all those investments on a paltry T5 Noble's income, she can't!
She's also just been appointed as the Vicountess of Regina.
Chehesti is a staunch ally of Duke Norris. She made a deal with Norris for him to provide key staff and advice to set up a trade network. He supplied the business contacts, the brokers, and the introductions. She supplied a modest amount of capital and used it to jump-start a speculative trade network between a number of planets in the Spinward Marches.
Profits are being reinvested into mega-corporation stock, estate improvements and on-planet business setup.
With Norris's assistance, getting a reliable positive revenue stream up and running was fairly easy. Without it, she wouldn't have the income to get the job done.
She's also just been appointed as the Vicountess of Regina.
Chehesti is a staunch ally of Duke Norris. She made a deal with Norris for him to provide key staff and advice to set up a trade network. He supplied the business contacts, the brokers, and the introductions. She supplied a modest amount of capital and used it to jump-start a speculative trade network between a number of planets in the Spinward Marches.
Profits are being reinvested into mega-corporation stock, estate improvements and on-planet business setup.
With Norris's assistance, getting a reliable positive revenue stream up and running was fairly easy. Without it, she wouldn't have the income to get the job done.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
As this discussion started off involving balloons and airships, I do have the Tentative Table of Organization and Equipment for US Army balloon and airship units as of 1925. Would anyone be interested in my converting them into something a bit more readable and posting them?
david.wendelken
SOC-12
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I will work on it then.
All, to add to your fuel possibilities, you might want to take a look at "blau gas" which was used by the Graf Zeppelin. The following quote is from Wikipedia.
Also, the USS Akron and Macon both had condensing units for the engine exhaust which condensed sufficient water from the exhaust to compensate for the weight of the burned fuel. The British in WW2 used a similar device in the Western Desert to condense water from engine exhaust in order to reduce the water consumption of units. The water condensed is not readily potable, but could be used as radiator water for desert vehicles.
All, to add to your fuel possibilities, you might want to take a look at "blau gas" which was used by the Graf Zeppelin. The following quote is from Wikipedia.
Also, the USS Akron and Macon both had condensing units for the engine exhaust which condensed sufficient water from the exhaust to compensate for the weight of the burned fuel. The British in WW2 used a similar device in the Western Desert to condense water from engine exhaust in order to reduce the water consumption of units. The water condensed is not readily potable, but could be used as radiator water for desert vehicles.
