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Vargr Loyalty

L

Lexx

SOC-11
I just got gurps traveller, alien races 1 which detailed the vargr and talked of their reputation for switching loyalty very quickly.

After reading thru it, and seeing th examples of Vargr attitude, like "If I can smell my leader;s confidence, I need have no fear. If I can smell my leader's fear then I need a new leader!"

As I see it, the vargr aren't 'disloyal' or anything of the type, they value layalty highly, and as such only give it to those worthy of it.

If you're worthy, a vargr will follow you to hell. If you become unworthy, a vargr will not keep giving you his loyalty because it's too precious to waste on the unworthy.

At least that's how I see it. Vargr ARE loyal, as long as you're worth being loyal too. They do not cop the mindless, robotic attitude of, say, "My country right or wrong." which may often keep them from following a lost cause of bad leader down the toilet.

Not that bad an attitude, if you ask me.
 
I just got gurps traveller, alien races 1 which detailed the vargr and talked of their reputation for switching loyalty very quickly.

After reading thru it, and seeing th examples of Vargr attitude, like "If I can smell my leader;s confidence, I need have no fear. If I can smell my leader's fear then I need a new leader!"

As I see it, the vargr aren't 'disloyal' or anything of the type, they value layalty highly, and as such only give it to those worthy of it.

If you're worthy, a vargr will follow you to hell. If you become unworthy, a vargr will not keep giving you his loyalty because it's too precious to waste on the unworthy.

At least that's how I see it. Vargr ARE loyal, as long as you're worth being loyal too. They do not cop the mindless, robotic attitude of, say, "My country right or wrong." which may often keep them from following a lost cause of bad leader down the toilet.

Not that bad an attitude, if you ask me.
 
The problem with vargr is threefold:

one: they follow the most charismatic leader in their vicinity, or they strike out on their own, often taking others with them.

two: due to biologicl issues, charisma doesn't transmit well outside personal range.

three: abstractions have no charisma, only individuals do.

So, Vargr leader Rrorro on Aarrou sends fleet to neighboring Gvahoun. If admiral Horro is happy with him, he leads the assault. But if Rrorro has dressed him down recently, he MIGHT, instead, find out how much of teh senior staff of the fleet will follow him, and instead try to depose Rrorro, to further his own charisma. But then, he has the very same problem the next week.

Vargr bands tend to be stable, much like packs. extended orgaanizations become increasingly less stable.

A Vargr can't develop a strong attachment to his country, but can for a strong loyalty to a great leader. Proximity helps. Kicking your subordinates butts also helps, provided you keep them close. If you let them go off and stew, your influence upon their subordinates reduces from distance, AND their influence is upon said subordinates can be reinforced, especially if the dressing down was private, and they don't know. THAT, even in primates, is the foundation for mutiny.
 
The problem with vargr is threefold:

one: they follow the most charismatic leader in their vicinity, or they strike out on their own, often taking others with them.

two: due to biologicl issues, charisma doesn't transmit well outside personal range.

three: abstractions have no charisma, only individuals do.

So, Vargr leader Rrorro on Aarrou sends fleet to neighboring Gvahoun. If admiral Horro is happy with him, he leads the assault. But if Rrorro has dressed him down recently, he MIGHT, instead, find out how much of teh senior staff of the fleet will follow him, and instead try to depose Rrorro, to further his own charisma. But then, he has the very same problem the next week.

Vargr bands tend to be stable, much like packs. extended orgaanizations become increasingly less stable.

A Vargr can't develop a strong attachment to his country, but can for a strong loyalty to a great leader. Proximity helps. Kicking your subordinates butts also helps, provided you keep them close. If you let them go off and stew, your influence upon their subordinates reduces from distance, AND their influence is upon said subordinates can be reinforced, especially if the dressing down was private, and they don't know. THAT, even in primates, is the foundation for mutiny.
 
even the best leaders have bad days, months, or years. loyalty involves some notion of stability. followers who shop around daily for leaders who might give them more in any given moment are not loyal, they are mercenary, and admirals who go off mission because of a dressing-down are in fact disloyal.

stable loyalty is best achieved when one is loyal to ideas rather than personalities. are the vargr described as being loyal to ideas, or are they loyal only to personalities?
 
even the best leaders have bad days, months, or years. loyalty involves some notion of stability. followers who shop around daily for leaders who might give them more in any given moment are not loyal, they are mercenary, and admirals who go off mission because of a dressing-down are in fact disloyal.

stable loyalty is best achieved when one is loyal to ideas rather than personalities. are the vargr described as being loyal to ideas, or are they loyal only to personalities?
 
Vargr are, of course, every bit as smart as humans, engage in at least as wide a range of behaviours, and quite possibly a wider range.

Canon is inconsistent with respect to the Vargr. On the one hand, supposedly the Vargr can't establish large, stable interstellar states. On the other hand, the Vargr have established large, stable interstellar states.

We are told that Vargr _can't_ do certain things, and we are also told that they _do_ do them. Does this sound familiar? It should - it is the sound of a prejudice conflicting with reality.

In my opinion, the view of the Vargr presented in many sources is a _human_ view. In particular, it is the view of a human from a long established authoritarian state, who dismisses the history of its rivals as meaningless and formless chaos.

The Vargr have history. The Imperium prefers to think it doesn't - only continuity.

Here's a pro-Vargr view:
"The Vargr are survivors. They are adaptive, flexible, and willing to experiment. If an old way of doing things stops working, they will change it.

Humans, on the other hand, will hang on to the old ways, and die with them. They will hold on to discredited leaders and bad ideas, when Vargr will reject them.

Humans will accept the rule of huge monolithic tyrannies, while Vargr will reject them. Even the largest Vargr states are looser than their human counterparts.

And the "Vargr way" works... The Julian Protectorate is essentially a Vargr interstellar state that has been around for as long as the Imperium, and is of a broadly comparable size - large enough, at least, to defeat the Imperium in a war! And within the Imperium itself is the Domain of Antares - ruled by a Vargr!

Of course, in the end, humans and Vargr are natural allies and partners. Both the Imperium and the Julian Protectorate are multi-species empires, with humans and Vargr being the two most common species. Many other "Vargr" states have a similar mix of citizens. So, for that matter, does the Zhodani Consulate!

So instead of humans and Vargr having a contest over whose urine has the most charismatic odour, perhaps they should consider that they live together in, and jointly rule, the greater part of Known Space."

(The author of this extract is a member of the Sanctioned Grovellers' Corps of Archduke Brzk of Antares.)
 
Vargr are, of course, every bit as smart as humans, engage in at least as wide a range of behaviours, and quite possibly a wider range.

Canon is inconsistent with respect to the Vargr. On the one hand, supposedly the Vargr can't establish large, stable interstellar states. On the other hand, the Vargr have established large, stable interstellar states.

We are told that Vargr _can't_ do certain things, and we are also told that they _do_ do them. Does this sound familiar? It should - it is the sound of a prejudice conflicting with reality.

In my opinion, the view of the Vargr presented in many sources is a _human_ view. In particular, it is the view of a human from a long established authoritarian state, who dismisses the history of its rivals as meaningless and formless chaos.

The Vargr have history. The Imperium prefers to think it doesn't - only continuity.

Here's a pro-Vargr view:
"The Vargr are survivors. They are adaptive, flexible, and willing to experiment. If an old way of doing things stops working, they will change it.

Humans, on the other hand, will hang on to the old ways, and die with them. They will hold on to discredited leaders and bad ideas, when Vargr will reject them.

Humans will accept the rule of huge monolithic tyrannies, while Vargr will reject them. Even the largest Vargr states are looser than their human counterparts.

And the "Vargr way" works... The Julian Protectorate is essentially a Vargr interstellar state that has been around for as long as the Imperium, and is of a broadly comparable size - large enough, at least, to defeat the Imperium in a war! And within the Imperium itself is the Domain of Antares - ruled by a Vargr!

Of course, in the end, humans and Vargr are natural allies and partners. Both the Imperium and the Julian Protectorate are multi-species empires, with humans and Vargr being the two most common species. Many other "Vargr" states have a similar mix of citizens. So, for that matter, does the Zhodani Consulate!

So instead of humans and Vargr having a contest over whose urine has the most charismatic odour, perhaps they should consider that they live together in, and jointly rule, the greater part of Known Space."

(The author of this extract is a member of the Sanctioned Grovellers' Corps of Archduke Brzk of Antares.)
 
DOn't forget that a lot of the imperium is vilani in nature, and thus incapable of seeing anything good in a group who are't slaves to 'tradition", so they're going to view the vargr as mindless chaotic beasts because they don't do everything just exactly the way their grandfathers did....
 
DOn't forget that a lot of the imperium is vilani in nature, and thus incapable of seeing anything good in a group who are't slaves to 'tradition", so they're going to view the vargr as mindless chaotic beasts because they don't do everything just exactly the way their grandfathers did....
 
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