Vargr can Kick!

[DeusX]

one would think a vargr kick to forward would be comparatively similar to a human kick to the rear. i can kick my leg straight back only somewhat effectively but i can break bones in a snap kick forwards. errr... 20 years ago at least...

Great point, thanks SD. Yes, I had envisaged my Vagr ship-defense-Fu consisting of a sudden standing leap over the intruder's head with either a toe-claw rake to the eyes or a killing back-kick to the base of the skull (assuming human target, their Ship-Fu varies by target species & bodyform)
:smirk:

-----
IMTU Vargr Defensive Ship Fu is quite similar to Transhuman Space's Martian(low-gee) Kick-boxing/Savate/Caponeria(sp?), just with the leg moves reversed. E.g. instead of the human karate jumping, spinning, inside-outside axe kick to the top of the head to crack a vacsuit, they do a backflip, forward flick-flack and two-pawed double axe-kick to the armoured vacsuit NVG/optics, or an overhead leap and back-claw to tear helmet hoses and wiring.

So typically my Vargr pilot goes to the airlock while his partner engineer holds the engine room. When the first 2 pirates come on board, holding him at gun-point, he lets them escort him half-way to the bridge, before on his signal (double-blink) the she-wolf cuts the lights and drops the grav for 0.3s, just enough for guns to slip down while he leaps straight up into a pre-placed loose overhead hatch cover, and into the safety of the engineering spaces.

Rude intruders will have been blinded en route...Then he howls while moving
at full quadraped burst speed through the custom duct work to the concealed backup bridge, listening for his mate's answering howl over _all_ coms that she has control of the enemy ships external feeds and turrets (taken over via the docking tube. Then they kill all power, lights and vent the corridors, board the pirate ship and the fun really begins

Pirates in my Marches have a scary old urban legend about a 100ton ship called Lone Wolf or Ghost or Mary something....
-------
YMMV
DX

 

[Kawaresksenjajok]

I always felt that whoever came up with the statement 'Vargr can't kick', are either ignorant of physiology, or just plain naive.

If one is to really stick by this idea, then I would suggest they explain why ostriches can kick, and viciously so. True, the leg proportions are different, and Vargr aren't birds, but they do share the same basic leg structure.

 

[Whipsnade]

I always felt that whoever came up with the statement 'Vargr can't kick', are either ignorant of physiology, or just plain naive.

Kawaresksenjajok,

They were and are none of those actually. They were speaking with an unvoiced assumption, one that you're completely unaware of.

When they said "Vargr can't kick" what they were really saying is that "Vargr can kick like humans".

And they can't.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Kawaresksenjajok]

Kawaresksenjajok,

They were and are none of those actually. They were speaking with an unvoiced assumption, one that you're completely unaware of.

When they said "Vargr can't kick" what they were really saying is that "Vargr can kick like humans".

And they can't.


Regards,
Bill

Apparently I must be missing something, but then again, I don't pretend to speak for others, and can recognize confusion or bad rationale as well as anyone else.
I can speak of my experience with other players of Traveller, and many have expressed the idea that a Vargr could not kick effectively at all, and usually for reasons I have stated before. Although I don't think that's the issue here, but I'm seeing some familiar thought patterns regarding Vargr physiology.
To say Vargr can't kick like humans, is almost so vague, as to be meaningless. What kind of kicks are we talking about? What kind of kick could a human perform that could not be imitated by a Vargr in some form?

 

[Whipsnade]

To say Vargr can't kick like humans, is almost so vague, as to be meaningless.

Kawaresksenjajok,

So vague as to be meaningless? You can't look at a digigrade limb and imagine all the ways it can and cannot move?

What kind of kicks are we talking about?

I'm sure a knee to the groin will quickly illustrate what the Hobby has been talking about for decades.

What kind of kick could a human perform that could not be imitated by a Vargr in some form?

Watch a sporting event, MMA fight, or even a dance recital and then imagine people with legs like the Vargr making movements like those athletes, boxers, and dancers.


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

A Vargr's knee can't generate the force needed to effectively knee someon in the testes; the moment arm is too short. On the other paw, they shure can rend your belly by grabbing your shoulders and jumping.

Humans can generate a LOT of forward momentum, and have dense, bony, club-like feet.

A vargr probably CAN dribble a soccer ball with his feet, but I doubt he'd make a good distance or goal kicker. On the other hand, he'd be an ace rubgy front-liner...

 

[Whipsnade]

A Vargr's knee can't generate the force needed to effectively knee someon in the testes; the moment arm is too short.

Aramis,

Hence my suggestion that a human knee to his groin would quickly illustrate to Kawaresksenjajok what the Hobby has been saying for decades; humans and Vargr kick differently.

On the other paw, they shure can rend your belly by grabbing your shoulders and jumping.

Oh yes! Just look at what a kangaroo can do!

Humans can generate a LOT of forward momentum, and have dense, bony, club-like feet.

Different physiological structures mean different type of movement by different body parts which leads to different types of kicking.

A vargr probably CAN dribble a soccer ball with his feet, but I doubt he'd make a good distance or goal kicker. On the other hand, he'd be an ace rubgy front-liner...

Rugby would be a wonderful sport for the Vargr. I'd be surprised if they hadn't developed something very similar to it.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Kawaresksenjajok]

A Vargr's knee can't generate the force needed to effectively knee someon in the testes; the moment arm is too short. On the other paw, they shure can rend your belly by grabbing your shoulders and jumping.

This is just plain speculative, the movement arm may or may not be able to generate 'appropriate' force - either way, I'll let you be the guinea pig for that test. My advice - wear a cup.

I keep hearing about these rending claws that Vargr possess, and frankly I don't know any details about the matter except that we can assume they have fingernails and toenails like that of terran canines.
Vargr operate sensitive and complicated equipment and tools, they wear clothing, they wear vacc-suits; it would seem to me they would routinely manicure those nails down so they don't become a detriment. It's not like those things are designed to be weapons.

 

[rancke]

This is just plain speculative, the movement arm may or may not be able to generate 'appropriate' force - either way, I'll let you be the guinea pig for that test.

But if it may or may not be true, then it is true. The original description of the Vargr says so. If you want to contradict that, it's up to you to show that it can't possibly be true.


Hans

 

[Peter Schutze]

"it would seem to me they would routinely manicure those nails down "

just like human women keep their nails trimmed down rather than artificially exaggerating them ?

"Vargr operate sensitive and complicated equipment and tools"

if human females can operate in current society with "false nails", I'm sure any species that has claws etc naturally occuring would have adapted their technological society to cope with their existence. Traveller races are not the David Brin "uplift" races .... traveller "terran" races like the Vargr evolved and grew into their technology over millenia

 

[Kawaresksenjajok]

But if it may or may not be true, then it is true. The original description of the Vargr says so. If you want to contradict that, it's up to you to show that it can't possibly be true.
Hans

Actually, I think you have that in reverse. It's up to the 'original' description to convince us, if it doesn't, then sorry buddy, it's just plain wrong; to be ignored or revised. At least, in the spirit of IMTU in my way of thinking.

But I don't say this lightly, I've had plenty of issues with certain things about Traveller alien races that I felt needed 'fixing', but after some time mulling it over and reading other viewpoints, I revised my opinion. I don't like people radically rewriting material they find disagreeable anymore than those who hide behind their precious LBBs like some kind of holy writ. There's a pleasant middle ground between the two extremes and Vargr being able to 'knee' each other to the groin is far from one of those subjects.

 

[rancke]

Actually, I think you have that in reverse. It's up to the 'original' description to convince us, if it doesn't, then sorry buddy, it's just plain wrong; to be ignored or revised. At least, in the spirit of IMTU in my way of thinking.

No, I have it the right way round. You can do whatever you like in your own game universe, and you don't have to convince anyone that you're right. But if you want to convince me that Vargr can kick, you've got to provide a compelling and convincing argument. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that the original description is right.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

No, I have it the right way round. You can do whatever you like in your own game universe, and you don't have to convince anyone that you're right. But if you want to convince me that Vargr can kick, you've got to provide a compelling and convincing argument. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that the original description is right.

In YTU or the OTU, I'd have to agree with you, I suppose.
But in a non-YTU non-OTU, then instead of saying " it must be THIS way unless you can prove its impossible." ( and you've mentioned once before that an issue being proven impossible wouldn't necessarily convince you ), you should probably go with " It MUST be this way because I can prove this way is the only possible way with no other alternatives."

and if Vargr can't kick because of their digitgrade posture, then it follows that other upright creatures with the same posture can't kick either ( Ahem....Aslan can't kick then either, right? )

Of course Vargr can kick...just not the same way humans can kick.
Vargr-fu would be interesting to watch I bet.

 

[aramis]

Depends on your definition of what a kick is, Ishmael.

Humans don't kick effectively backwards. (Most of the "rear kicks" in martial arts are really side kicks with a rotation to bring the target in reach.) But tell that to Mr. Morrison, who took a heel to the crotch whilst having his hands reaching into the woman's pockets...

A Vargr certainly should be able to rake with the hind limbs. But the shown bone structure is quite gracile, and in bone, gracile=fragile. Gracile bone strengths are usually greatest longitudinally. Striking, as a human does, with the instep is likely to break a vargr's 30-40cm instep where a human's greater bone mass in only 15-20cm results in other complications.

But fundamentally, the most important distinction is that, for combat purposes, there is a difference between a punch and a kick, and a vargr has no attack of equivalent profile to the human kick.

 

[rancke]

In YTU or the OTU, I'd have to agree with you, I suppose.
But in a non-YTU non-OTU, then instead of saying " it must be THIS way unless you can prove its impossible." ( and you've mentioned once before that an issue being proven impossible wouldn't necessarily convince you ), you should probably go with " It MUST be this way because I can prove this way is the only possible way with no other alternatives."

If I had any interest in convincing anyone about what they should or should not do in their own TU, maybe I should (I must admit that I've sort of lost the thread of your argument). But I don't, so I'm going to stick with the OTU (For MTU, of course, I decide how a Vargr can or cannot kick... or if there are any Vargr to kick or not kick (there are and they can't ).

Of course Vargr can kick...just not the same way humans can kick.

And might not that difference conceivably be enough to justify the game rules about Vargr kicks? And maybe even justify the statement "Vargr can't kick [like Humans kick], which leads to the following modifiers to Vargr combat resolution..."?


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

And might not that difference conceivably be enough to justify the game rules about Vargr kicks? And maybe even justify the statement "Vargr can't kick [like Humans kick], which leads to the following modifiers to Vargr combat resolution..."?

It depends on the sources of the quote.
I use MT, and my main source for Vargr info is "Vilani & Vargr" by DGP.
MT doesn't go into specifics of hand-to-hand fighting such as kicks,punches, etc....its just brawling.
I could find no specific mention on how the "kick" issue affects anything.
A short sentence on Ancient mods to change the posture and changes to combat rules; brawling is replaced by infighting; a skill which takes the Vargr's natural weapons into affect...presumably the kicking too. Also, Vargr get a dm+1 to interrupt a character of lower charisma where non-Vargr are assumed to be lower charisma.

If I HAD to make up something in rules for a Vargr's kicking ( while using the OTU stuff ), I'd say it changes the direction of such attacks in games like Azhanti High Lightning where facing is an issue. Let Humans kick forward and to the side...Vargr only kick into the rear arc. The fact that they can use teeth and claws, plus have a high sprint movement should offset that more than enough for play balance.

but can Aslan kick?
( I think I'd treat them the same as I would Vargr for that )

 

[rust]

but can Aslan kick?

We definitely need a "kicking supplement" detailing the kicking abilities and
inabilities of all the major and some of the minor races (except dolphins, I
think).

 

[Ishmael]

rust

yes!
hey!
Droyne are depicted as being digitgrade so they can't kick either ( like humans )
and K'Kree are depicted with limbs like horses or bovines, so I guess they can't kick forward either

Humans sure are unique!

 

[Kawaresksenjajok]

No, I have it the right way round. You can do whatever you like in your own game universe, and you don't have to convince anyone that you're right. But if you want to convince me that Vargr can kick, you've got to provide a compelling and convincing argument. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that the original description is right.
Hans

I think you mistake my position as one trying to convince you of anything. I'm just suggesting a productive and, hopefully, objective view of whatever material comes before our eyes. Beyond that, it's up to the GM and players in what they feel comfortable to use in their game sessions.
If you want to use gender-role transferal to explain the male to female ratios in Aslan culture, and all concerned are fine with it, then more power to you.
That being my position, I really don't care to argue the matter further with flying-axe kicking Vargr.

 

[aramis]

You sure came across as trying to convince people, Kawaresksenjajok