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Vargr can Kick!

F

fraterm

SOC-1
Because initially I thought it as just an ill thought out unnecessarily arbitrary restriction (considering other the other species/races in traveller with digitigrade legs could kick just fine) thrown in by Loren Weissman because he didn't like Vargr or something when I was playing GURPS Traveller. Later I came to find out that it was actually canon, but practically meaningless in game, kicking something/brawling with someone in Traveller was such a limited occurrence anyway.

When I played CT in high school, everybody was human, because I didn't have any books with aliens in them at the time but I couldn't see it as anything more than just color.

Anyway, Vargr can kick, in my universe, and I don't plan on backing down from that difference. :) I mean, they have legs, they stand roughly upright, even when I am on my tip toes doing certain martial arts, a kick is quite possible (and indeed is thought to be aided) from that sort of foot and leg position. It was more physiologically explained with some pseudo reasoning in the OTU Alien Races treatment of the Vargr but I allow it anyway.
 
Welcome aboard fraterm :D

...finally ;) (long time lurker I see)

Good way to kick off posting here :)

And I agree, Vargr can kick, probably harder than a human. Ever been kicked by dog? There's more muscle per body mass in a dog's hind leg than a person's I think. They should be better jumpers too, and fleeter of foot (they are aren't they in some versions). Again for equal body mass/strength.
 
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Icosahedron said:
Yeah, right, you just go on giving the GM ideas - like he needs em! :mad: ;)

(Anti-Crisis PBP)
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:devil:

Just carry a stick.

Vargr give you problems, throw the stick. They can't help it. Before they can stop themselves they'll be chasing after it, and you can slip away. :D

Of course they'll just track you down again unless you cover your scent trail...
 
clamlegs.gif



Johnny Hart, February 18, 1931 – April 7, 2007.

RIP
 
The bone structure of a vargr as given in the CT alien module would stop the vargr from being able to kick forwards.

Nothing to stop a reverse kick, spinning kick etc.
 
Spinward Scout said:
They would kick backwards, wouldn't they? I mean, that's how my dog always kicked...
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Kinda.

Think of a Kangaroo[1] disembowelment kick, reach forward and up with the rear leg planting it arround the gut area of your opponent, dig your claws in and then "leap" with that leg bringing the tip of your foot (and claw) downwards with significant force.

Like a Savate stop kick rather then a Karate forward kick. The knee is never fully straightened, which could be the problem with Vargr kicking.

[1] Male Kangaroos fight over Harem this way. Same as Rams and Cattle headbutt. Male Kangaroos can get away with this as the structures that in a female roo become the pouch are in the male roo a greatly thickened and toughened stomach patch area.
 
Alien Module #3: Vargr does have a set of good anatomical drawings including detailed skeletal ones.

Judging by them, and common sense using animals with similar structure (like my German Shepherd on his hind legs) I would say that while a Vargr could kick forward it wouldn't be a very effective one except for the claws raking the target. And for that to be truly effective the Vargr would need to hold onto the target with his hands like large predators today do with their jaws and front claws so the Vargr would have the good balance and leverage to generate the power to do real damage.

Besides, he has such big teeth and claws why bother kicking?
 
I own Mongoose Traveller Core Rulebook, in which there's everything essential you need to play any Major race-characther, it doesn't say a word about that Vargr couldn't kick. it just tells that they get +1 to dexteriety throws and to atribute maximum etc. At the Hivers paragraph it tells same way with thick black text: "Hivers can see infra-red spectrum."

I bought Gurps Alien Races 1 though, cause I couldnt wait mongoose to publish Vargr sourcebook. There it says that they couldn't kick for their on-toes walking-style, but I follow basicly my corebook and take the extra backround stuff from Gurps book. If there would be people in my group who would own just the corebook, someone would want play Vargr and he or she would be like:

Huh? :oo: That's not fair! You are abusing your GM-power! :mad:"

By the way, which other races walk by that on-toes way?
 
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Vargr Drifter said:
I own Mongoose Traveller Core Rulebook, in which there's everything essential you need to play any Major race-characther...
Click to expand...


Vargr Drifter,

Well, that's patently untrue because as you say...

... it doesn't say a word about that Vargr couldn't kick.
Click to expand...

... meaning everything essential to play a Vargr isn't in MgT.

Given Mongoose's track record this should not be a surprise.

The Vargr have always been unable to kick in the same manner humans do because of the structure of their legs and not solely because Vargr are digitigrade and humans are plantigrade. Unlike humans, Vargr knees do not bend forward. While a digitigrade gait requires a different limb than the plantigrade gait does, some digitigrade animals like elephants do have knees that bend forward.

What MgT says on the matter is of no concern because Mongoose has screwed up again. Traveller canon, as derived from all real Traveller versions, has said the Vargr cannot kick like humans from the beginning.

At the Hivers paragraph it tells same way with thick black text: "Hivers can see infra-red spectrum."
Click to expand...

That's something Mongoose almost got right. The Hivers have three IR sensitive sensors equally space around their head limb and alternating with auditory sensors between adjacent eye stalks. As repeatedly described in real Traveller, these IR sensor patches provide limited vision into the IR spectrum and the sense separate from and not integrated into the Hivers' regular visual wavelength sense.

So, Hivers don't "see" the infra-red sepctrum. They have a limited IR sense instead.

I bought Gurps Alien Races 1 though...
Click to expand...

The Vargr descriptions in GT:AR1 are far more accurate than those in MgT.

There it says that they couldn't kick for their on-toes walking-style...
Click to expand...

Again, it's not just their digitigrade gait, but the type of leg structure a digitigrade gait usually requires.

... but I follow basicly my corebook and take the extra backround stuff from Gurps book.
Click to expand...

What you do in your TU need only be justified to you and you alone. You can change canon in any way you see fit.

If there would be people in my group who would own just the corebook, someone would want play Vargr and he or she would be like: Huh? :oo: That's not fair! You are abusing your GM-power! :mad:"
Click to expand...

Then all you need to be is "like": "Huh? :oo: Mongoose routinely screws up! They abuse their license power by ignoring thirty years of canonical information primarily through sloth and indolence. I'm the GM and I've chosen to correct Mongoose's shoddily researched materials. You need to realize that the Vargr have walked this way longer than you've most likely been alive." :mad:

If you take the time to explain to your players why something is so in your setting, they cannot complain. And in this case, your "change" from Mongoose's information is actually a correction.

By the way, which other races walk by that on-toes way?
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Droyne, Aslan, and several Minor Races, but it's not a digitigrade gait alone that prevents kicking like humans do. It's also the leg structure the digitigrade gait usually requires; the "knee" bends backwards, not forwards.


Regards,
Bill
 
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fraterm said:
Because initially I thought it as just an ill thought out unnecessarily arbitrary restriction (considering other the other species/races in traveller with digitigrade legs could kick just fine) thrown in by Loren Weissman because he didn't like Vargr or something when I was playing GURPS Traveller. Later I came to find out that it was actually canon, but practically meaningless in game, kicking something/brawling with someone in Traveller was such a limited occurrence anyway.
Click to expand...

I believe there's a line about Vargr kicks in the CT Alien Module. Memory is hazy. I think it's -1 attack. Or, maybe it's a line that they can't kick at all. Either way, I remember something about this, and I think I remember it from the Vargr AM.
 
Then all you need to be is "like": "Huh? Mongoose routinely screws up! They abuse their license power by ignoring thirty years of canonical information primarily through sloth and indolence. I'm the GM and I've chosen to correct Mongoose's shoddily researched materials. You need to realize that the Vargr have walked this way longer than you've most likely been alive." :mad:
Click to expand...

:rofl:


Aah, It's about leg So Gurps truly is more "orhtodox" to the original. Well I bought Mongoose cause I would have needed big pile of expensive books to get play so that I'm pleased, and I didn't know far future enterprises makes reprints. hmmm... I'm gonna get some of them someday! :D Your post gives me feeling that don't own those Little Black Books anymore by yourself Supplement Four. Am I right?

That Hiver thing, I'm not sure was it written like that or was it limited IR vision as you said and I must check that Gurps book again too, I think it just said about that digitigradeness... but ok, they can kick backwards, so that's not SO big problem.
 
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Hi All

IMTU I allow Vargr to leap twice as far as humans.

The aliens in the sci-fi movie 'The Arrival' had reverse bending knees, and could elude human pursuers with a standing leap into the trees, or up a fire-escape.

Regards
DX
 
Vargr, being digigrade, walk on their toes. Their knees bend forward, but the ankle does not ( just like humans ). Dogs can't kick forward because they are bent over. Humans can't kick effectively from that position either. If we assume that a vargr's hip and musculature in the waist/hip area is similar to human ( looks drawn that way ), then it stands to reason that they can kick forward, just not with the same appearance as human because of differing lengths of the thigh, shin and foot when compared to a human.

If its because of a Vargr's digigrade stance that it can't kick forward, it would mean that humans can't kick while standing on tippy-toe, or that Aslan can't kick either ( different bone structure?... they sure are drawn as having human-like legs and didgigrade stance )
It wold just look different.

An example of a digigrade animal that kicks forward is the kangaroo. Mechanically, its the same as a human kicking straight out from a standing position, hitting the target with the bottom of the foot.

The statement that "Vargr knees do not bend forward" is misleading.
 
If they can move their legs forward to walk then they can kick, simple as that.

If they can run forward then they must be able to lift their leg forward quite a way.

That's how I think about it.
 
one would think a vargr kick to forward would be comparatively similar to a human kick to the rear. i can kick my leg straight back only somewhat effectively but i can break bones in a snap kick forwards. errr... 20 years ago at least...:D
 
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