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Uplifted Apes

Why wouldn't the Simians seek shelter among the Hivers?


Ran,

Let's see...

The Simians would be escaping from the Solomani, the race who uplifted them to sentience and nearly exterminated them out of hand as a failed lab experiments, to live among the Hivers, a race who manipulate every minor race in their Federation so that they can better fit into whatever sociological box the Hivers have chosen for them.

Sounds better to me. ;)

Imagine you're a lab rat. Does it matter if the fellow in the white coat has two arms or six tentacles?

It seems they would desire a buffer between themselves and their oppressors...

Trading one master for another? Sure, why not?

To the Hivers, they would be just one more Terran primate living inside their borders.

Yup, just another Terran primate living inside their borders that any starfish with an M in front of their name or who wants an M in front of their name can play with.

This way too, there is no Simian homeworld subject to potential pogroms by genetic purists, abuses by slavers and bounty hunters, or even squatters looking to jump claim on a colony site.

You really need to read about the Hivers, really.

IMHO, the Hivers offer them something the Solomani don't, a place at the table.

A place at the kiddie table.

Escaping to the Wild Wild Rim of the Confederation is easier and can potentially give the Simians control over their own destiny.

First, while they were nearly exterminated and now are studiously ignored, S&A doesn't even hint at pogroms, bounty hunters, or any of that. The best way to describe official Sollie policy towards the Simians is "benign neglect". Second, the Simians already have Sollie allies. The reform movement in particular is striving to make the truth behind the Gene Wars known and has enlisted the Simians themselves in that effort.

Because the Simians are already part of Sollie society, albeit on the margins, and because they already have sympathizers within the Confederation, "escaping" to a safer place within the Confederation is much more easier and can produce greater results than starting from "zero" within the Heirate, Imperium, or Federation.


Regards,
Bill
 
I can see why it would have to be after the Solomani Autonomous Region turned itself into the Solomani Confederation in 871. But why does it have to be after the Rim War?


Hans,

Why would the Sollies fight a civil war while planning for the war with the Imperium?

Dig out S&A and read the section. Yes, you can and most likely will argue that the Gene Wars could have possibly occurred anytime after 871, but there's a decided tone to the section that places the events after the Confederation had achieved de facto independence.


Regards,
Bill
 
The Simians would be escaping from the Solomani, the race who uplifted them to sentience and nearly exterminated them out of hand as a failed lab experiments, to live among the Hivers, a race who manipulate every minor race in their Federation so that they can better fit into whatever sociological box the Hivers have chosen for them.
But how much do most outsiders know about Hiver manipulation?


Hans
 
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Why would the Sollies fight a civil war while planning for the war with the Imperium?
Why would you think they had a choice? It doesn't sound like something anyone planned for.

Dig out S&A and read the section. Yes, you can and most likely will argue that the Gene Wars could have possibly occurred anytime after 871, but there's a decided tone to the section that places the events after the Confederation had achieved de facto independence.
But that's presumably if I want to be fair and evenhanded in my interpretation of the text. Whereas what I want is to interpret it to allow a decent number of generations to let my Pongs build up a decent population. Nothing excessive, but at least into the millions or tens of millions. Hundreds of thousands might do in a pinch.


Hans
 
Whereas what I want is to interpret it to allow a decent number of generations to let my Pongs build up a decent population. Nothing excessive, but at least into the millions or tens of millions. Hundreds of thousands might do in a pinch.


Hans,

It's an OTU/MTU thing then. :)

You need a big population so you can fashion a Pong "homeworld". Hence the earlier date, the inclusion of chimps and gorillas, and the ability of a researcher to manage to ship himself, his assistants, and his data across the Confederation and into the Imperium. (He must have embezzled quite a tidy sum!) There should be no problem with any of that.

When I read the S&A section, relatively large numbers of Simians and concentrations of relatively numbers of Simians don't seem to be the case in the OTU. The Sollie government is said to routinely oppress them and present them to the Confederation at large as little more than terrorists. To my mind, that suggests Simian "ghettos" and "reservations", not substantial Simian populations on various Sollie worlds.


Regards,
Bill
 
It's an OTU/MTU thing then. :)
Only if I can't fit it into the OTU somehow. you know I like to stay inside the OTU lines when I color MTU. ;)

(Always provided the OTU lines make sense, of course.)
You need a big population so you can fashion a Pong "homeworld". Hence the earlier date, the inclusion of chimps and gorillas, and the ability of a researcher to manage to ship himself, his assistants, and his data across the Confederation and into the Imperium. (He must have embezzled quite a tidy sum!) There should be no problem with any of that.
I'm not going to argue that it's plausible, just that it's possible. And worth the cost in belief-suspension to swallow. Come on, don't you feel that a world with a population of, say 30% each of the three species and 10% other races (mostly humans) sounds like an interesting place to visit?

When I read the S&A section, relatively large numbers of Simians and concentrations of relatively numbers of Simians don't seem to be the case in the OTU. The Sollie government is said to routinely oppress them and present them to the Confederation at large as little more than terrorists. To my mind, that suggests Simian "ghettos" and "reservations", not substantial Simian populations on various Sollie worlds.
I don't disagree at all. But I'm not talking about a peacefully established Confederation-sponsored world any more. Now I'm talking about one single world nutured by Imperial protection. Whoever wrote that section you read (don't forget this is viewpoint writing) either didn't know about it or didn't consider it relevant enough to be worth mentining.


Hans
 
But how much do most outsiders know about Hiver manipulation?


Hans,

The "in voice" sections of S&A certainly rail against Hiver manipulations. That section of the book is presented as excerpts from Sons of Earth: A Study of the Solomani People by Professor Albirto Majuan of Inerra/Aldabaran.

There are references in CT's Hiver AM with regards to Federation relations with the Confederation. The Solomani seemingly take exception to how the Hivers treat human minors within the Federation. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! ;)

There's also a piece of color text somewhere in either CT or MT in which a Solomani describes his actions in ground combat during a Federation-Confederation border skirmish. He's quite disgusted by the mix of minor races his unit is facing and even more disgusted by the inclusion of humans in that enemy unit. I remember the narrator describing one of the Federation minor races as resembling a furry tyrannosaur.


Regards,
Bill
 
Come on, don't you feel that a world with a population of, say 30% each of the three species and 10% other races (mostly humans) sounds like an interesting place to visit?


Hans,

Very much so.

The fun begins when we need to add chimps and gorillas to the canonical orangs and gibbons and when we get them out of the Confederation and into the Imperium somehow.

Perhaps one or more of the labs is overrun during the Rim War and the Imperium sees the propaganda coup they've been handed?


Regards,
Bill
 
rancke said:
Come on, don't you feel that a world with a population of, say 30% each of the three species and 10% other races (mostly humans) sounds like an interesting place to visit?
The fun begins when we need to add chimps and gorillas to the canonical orangs and gibbons and when we get them out of the Confederation and into the Imperium somehow.

Perhaps one or more of the labs is overrun during the Rim War and the Imperium sees the propaganda coup they've been handed?
Well, I'm not wedded to the Mad Doctor and his epic flight to the safety of the Imperium with his orang lab assistants carefully taking care of the gestation chambers filled with chimps and gorillas, but I do think the story has the advantages of explaining why there are no mention of chimps and gorillas elsewhere and of ditching the gibbons (I must repeat that for me part of the charm lies in having those three species and no substitutes[*]. I mean, gibbons?!? )

[*] I'm already wondering if I can get away with giving the setting writeup the title "Planet of the Apes" or if I'll have to call it "Planet of the <Something Else>[**]"

[**] And, if so, what?​


Hans
 
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So what would be the lifespan of uplifted orangs, chimps, and gorillas, and what would be span of a generation? Would the scientists who uplifted them have tinkered with lifespan and length of maturation?

Would they have tinkered with size, maybe making the chimps bigger and the gorillas smaller?


Hans
 
Hans,

As for the gibbons angle, the original pre-Interstellar Wars project was aimed at developing "quaddies" for zero-gee uses. Gibbons and orangs make more sense than chimps and gorillas from that perspective because they're more arboreal in daily life.


Regards,
Bill
 
As for the gibbons angle, the original pre-Interstellar Wars project was aimed at developing "quaddies" for zero-gee uses. Gibbons and orangs make more sense than chimps and gorillas from that perspective because they're more arboreal in daily life.
Somehow we don't seem to have the same rapport we usually do, Bill. I'm not exploring the logical ramifications of the existing canon; I'm exploring the question "What's fun and how do we get it?" IMO gorillas and chimps are fun and gibbons are not.


Hans
 
Somehow we don't seem to have the same rapport we usually do, Bill. I'm not exploring the logical ramifications of the existing canon; I'm exploring the question "What's fun and how do we get it?" IMO gorillas and chimps are fun and gibbons are not.


Hans,

I got that part and I too think chimps and gorillas are more fun than gibbons.

While it was addressed to you, my last post was aimed more at others reading this thread. I was "pre-emptively" answering a question I believed would arise.

So, what about the project or part of the project being "captured" by the Imperium before or during the Rim War? The Imperium was reintegrating those Solomani Sphere worlds which requested it prior to the war, that's one of the war's proximate causes.

Arglebargle-IX gets incorporated or occupied and old Dr. Zaius reveals the project to Imperial authorities. They immediately realize the propaganda coup they've been handed. Trumpeting about how the Confederation is breeding slave races, they quickly relocate the project to a safer entire world or continent on a safer world, dump in a MCr or two, and import thousands of staffers. Jump forward a few centuries, and the Pong "Monk-archy" is a going concern with a million of so citizens who delight in tweaking the Sollies every chance they get.


Regards,
Bill
 
Well, Bill, if you dislike my suggestion about the Flight of the Research Director so much, why don't we just ignore the origin and have a look at what we can agree on? Somehow a group of uplifted chimps, gorillas, and orangutangs wind up on a world in Imperial space. The chimps and gorillas may or may not be the only existing populations of uplifted chimps and gorillas. That's not important. That part is, after all, ancient history.

The question I'd like to explore is: What does society on that world look like in 1115?

Some questions (in no particular order): Where is the world located? I'd like it to be called Pongida, but that would require placing it in one of the sectors that hasn't had all its worlds named yet. (Are there any of them left?)

If the world isn't named Pongida, it can be picked from existing UWP listings. In any case it should be: a) Fairly pleasant (It was an Imperial reservation world before); Terran-prime at least. b) Have a population in the millions or low tens of millions. Possibly the high 100,000s, but preferrably at least a few million. c) Be located as close to the Spinward Marches as possible (The last bit isn't strictly necessary, but I'd like to have them close enough to make guest appearances in my campaign ;)). Putting them in the Marches itself is not possible, I guess. But maybe somewhere in Deneb?

Um... can't think of any other simple questions right now. I'll have to sleep on it. The complicated question is, of course, "What is society like?"


Hans
 
Well, Bill, if you dislike my suggestion about the Flight of the Research Director so much...


Hans,

I don't dislike it. I'm just modifying it slightly to make it more plausible.

You know how insanely expensive long distant interstellar travel is in the OTU. The Research Director will have had to have embezzled millions in order just to cross a subsector or so with a dozen assistants/uplifts and a few tons of equipment/records/embryos.

KInstead of a "Flight", I'm simply suggesting a "Flight With Outside Help".

The question I'd like to explore is: What does society on that world look like in 1115?

Hmm... First, you can arrange your pre-uplift species along a gregarious scale of sorts. Chimps live in the largest social groups, followed by gorillas, followed by the nearly solitary orangs. I'd think the whole "Only Alpha males and near-Alpha males mate" trope seen in chimps and to a lesser extent in gorillas will have been dialed back during uplift. Leaving orangs aside, polygamy and/serial monogamy seem to be a good bet, maybe tilted a bit towards the former more than humans. Matrilineal scent logically follows from that and a tilt towards communal living arrangements, again except for orangs.

The three sentient species places in the overall society would generally reflect their pre-uplift species "gregarious rating" with chimps being "urban", gorillas "suburban", and orangs "rural". Chimps are "joiners", orangs "loners", and gorillas somewhere in between. You can assign probable occupations with this "gregarious scale" too.

For chimps and gorillas, why don't you take some ideas page from the Gampi minor race of MTU which I stole in turn from the Navajo, Romans, and New Guinea Highlanders and then modified? Children are said to have a "born to" clan and a "born for" clan. The first refers to the mother's clan and the second to the father. The child's names reflects their "born to/for" status. The child is reared by the mother's clan and the father lives there during that process. Clan matriarchs arrange "marriages", and thus births, according to the needs of inter-clan politics. Groups of clans also form broad gens.

The orangs will be the odd men out in this polygamous structure They're very solitary in the wild and only interact with others when they need to mate and take care of the resulting offspring. They'd be more likely to form nuclear families than even humans are.

A "dietary" scale should be applied to post-uplift behavior also. Although chimps and orangs are omniverous, chimps have been observed hunting and while orangs are simply opportunistic. Gorillas are purely "vegan" of course. ;)

And then there's a "tool usage" scale with orangs on top, chimps in the middle, and gorillas at the bottom.

Let me see if I can dig out GURPS: Uplift. There should be some ideas there.

Some questions (in no particular order): Where is the world located? I'd like it to be called Pongida, but that would require placing it in one of the sectors that hasn't had all its worlds named yet. (Are there any of them left?)

Any left? I'd say yes, if you are hardcore and only the count names found in AotI and the few canonical CT sectors. Draw the line with DGP and everything after DGP on one side and you'll have plenty of room.

In any case it should be: a) Fairly pleasant (It was an Imperial reservation world before); Terran-prime at least. b) Have a population in the millions or low tens of millions. Possibly the high 100,000s, but preferrably at least a few million. c) Be located as close to the Spinward Marches as possible (The last bit isn't strictly necessary, but I'd like to have them close enough to make guest appearances in my campaign ;)). Putting them in the Marches itself is not possible, I guess. But maybe somewhere in Deneb?

I think reservation status is the key. You can comb through UWP listings looking for that code must faster than anything else. Reservation status doesn't mean no inhabitants either, look at Marastan. In fact, "maintaining" the reservation would be a good job for your arboreal and semi-arboreal Pongs.


Regards,
Bill
 
But would they be truly uplifts or just hybrids? Could Solomani scientists resist the temptation to cut corners and use human DNA to bridge the gap, particularly since there is genetic parity.

"Cordwainer Smith's" Underpeople?

Sounds fun... if not taken to furry extremes!
 
Ran,

You have my apologies.

Truth be told, I thought I was being funny. :(


Regards,
Bill

Apology accepted and I apologize for taking offense when none was meant; I should have let it slide. And my rather personal attack was completely unjustified in this forum and I regret the comments I made. Please forgive me.

Us New Englanders need stick together, even if your state is upside down. :)

Regards,

Ran
Proud Vermonter
 
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I should have let it slide.


Ran,

No you shouldn't.

I routinely need these friendly reminders in order that:

A) I don't come across as more of an ass than I already am, and

B) That I should take the time to explain myself more clearly.

Bought this year's shovel yet? It's going to be a fierce one. I swear I saw a caterpillar with an airline ticket for Florida. ;)


Regards,
Bill
 
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