Garnfellow
SOC-13
I have occasionally seen references to uplifted apes in Traveller. MGT, for example, has rules for ape and dolphin characters. Are there any canonical sources for this idea?
Uplifted Apes
- Thread starter Garnfellow
- Start date
MT's Solomani & Aslan references that the Solomani Confederation uplifted several species, including Chimps, Gorillas, Orang–Utan, and Dolphins.
T20 adds Bears to that list, with the Ursa. (T20 was declared setting-canon by MWM; the Ursa are thus canonical.)
The article on dolphins appears in JTAS 6 & 7, and Best of JTAS 2. While not labelled canonical, the appearance in BOJTAS implies it stood the scrutiny, and JTAS itself is listed on the list of canon. (Some items in JTAS are not canon.)
T20 adds Bears to that list, with the Ursa. (T20 was declared setting-canon by MWM; the Ursa are thus canonical.)
The article on dolphins appears in JTAS 6 & 7, and Best of JTAS 2. While not labelled canonical, the appearance in BOJTAS implies it stood the scrutiny, and JTAS itself is listed on the list of canon. (Some items in JTAS are not canon.)
Garnfellow
SOC-13
This elusive book continues to mock me! Gah!
I assume the uplifting occurred during the Rule of Man?
Rest assured, MWM is trying to get a reasonable deal for doing a DGP CD. I'm waiting on it, too... I sold my spare years ago, and the bloke I sold it to is as unwilling to part with it as I am with my last copy.
Or before; I'm fuzzy on the when.
For dolphins, here's the intro from JTAS#6:
Dolphin
(Tursiops galactis)
When humanity left the cradle of Terra, numerous other forms went along. Many creatures were introduced into new worlds, sometimes to supplement the local ecology and sometimes as part of an effort to create a new ecology. On worlds having extensive hydrographic cover, there was a need for creatures that could assist in the colonization and development of the oceans. Scientists settled on using the Atlantic bottlenose dolphin, enhanced by genetic engineering (or "geneering") to create a new and hardier species (T. galactis) as a partner to human settlers of these worlds. The exceptional intelligence of the dolphin allowed it to be trained in many areas of work in the ocean communities, and some worlds even went so far as to enlist them as soldiers in the local nautical force commands. These military dolphins proved to be invaluable allies as reconnaissance troops, and some are equipped with a special type of battle dress to increase their military capabilities.
(Tursiops galactis)
When humanity left the cradle of Terra, numerous other forms went along. Many creatures were introduced into new worlds, sometimes to supplement the local ecology and sometimes as part of an effort to create a new ecology. On worlds having extensive hydrographic cover, there was a need for creatures that could assist in the colonization and development of the oceans. Scientists settled on using the Atlantic bottlenose dolphin, enhanced by genetic engineering (or "geneering") to create a new and hardier species (T. galactis) as a partner to human settlers of these worlds. The exceptional intelligence of the dolphin allowed it to be trained in many areas of work in the ocean communities, and some worlds even went so far as to enlist them as soldiers in the local nautical force commands. These military dolphins proved to be invaluable allies as reconnaissance troops, and some are equipped with a special type of battle dress to increase their military capabilities.
Garnfellow,
Some species, like the dolphins and bears mentioned, seem to have been uplifted during the Rule of Man. Others seem do have been completed much later and, oddly enough, simians are among that number.
Rats n' Cats has simian uplift projects beginning early in the Interstellar War period only to be abandoned once artificial gravity was developed/acquired. The project was then resurrected during the Confederation era where it sparked the Gene Wars.
Regards,
Bill
darkmentat
SOC-4
got to love the uplift ideas. ever since i read Startide Rising. and the gurps uplift sorce book is a great resorce.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
I thought ALL the variants of Humanati were "Uplifted Apes"?
:smirk:
:smirk:
Well, BB, in the OTU, H. sapiens terrestrius aka H sapiens sapiens (Solomani/Terran) is native stock, and H. sapiens as a clade is a mix of altered and normal H. sapiens antecessor. (sp) The variety of minor humans are all dating back to a common H. sapiens antecessor ancestor of ~300KYA.
In the Real Universe, most current theories are H sapiens is about 50 KYA; H neaderthalensis about 100KY; it's back in the time of H. antecessor and H. Heidelbergensis.
In either case, technically, they are already "humans"; genus Homo, in either case.
In the Real Universe, most current theories are H sapiens is about 50 KYA; H neaderthalensis about 100KY; it's back in the time of H. antecessor and H. Heidelbergensis.
In either case, technically, they are already "humans"; genus Homo, in either case.
I thought all the DGP work wasn't considered 'canon'. Or was that changed? Well, it's a good sourcebook if you can get your hands on it.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
It's a grey area. New works shouldn't contradict it, but shouldn't quote it either.
I'm not a big fan of the concept of uplifting, particularly when performed by the major Traveller species. With the exception of Hivers, I don't think projects of this type would ever come to fruition due to issues like morality and the length of time necessary to do it correctly. A project like this begs too many questions to be asked.
And for what purpose? It seems very fad-ish (Planet of the Apes anyone?). Why expend the funds and time necessary to genetically engineer a species to fit a particular job description when you can build a robot cheaper and more quickly. If you're really looking for an intelligent, self-replicating solution, aren't there other OTU races that could conceivably be contracted and relocated for still cheaper?
I can also see minority species in the 3I coming to the political and legal defense of an uplifted species if attempts were made to "create" slave labor on any large scale. I think it would put them in a very precarious position with respects to the human majority.
Now, what if the Ancients did drag some other ape-ish species with them when they were transplanting Humaniti from Terra to the far corners of this galaxy?
What if gorillas, chimps, even some extinct species like Gigantopithecus were given the evolutionary kick in the butt necessary to achieve true intelligence?
And what if the worlds they were left on still haven't been discovered yet?
And for what purpose? It seems very fad-ish (Planet of the Apes anyone?). Why expend the funds and time necessary to genetically engineer a species to fit a particular job description when you can build a robot cheaper and more quickly. If you're really looking for an intelligent, self-replicating solution, aren't there other OTU races that could conceivably be contracted and relocated for still cheaper?
I can also see minority species in the 3I coming to the political and legal defense of an uplifted species if attempts were made to "create" slave labor on any large scale. I think it would put them in a very precarious position with respects to the human majority.
Now, what if the Ancients did drag some other ape-ish species with them when they were transplanting Humaniti from Terra to the far corners of this galaxy?
What if gorillas, chimps, even some extinct species like Gigantopithecus were given the evolutionary kick in the butt necessary to achieve true intelligence?
And what if the worlds they were left on still haven't been discovered yet?
Last edited:
^ I see your point but mine was that I didn't like the idea of Humaniti (or the Aslan or Vargr or K'kree) doing it in the 3I. A subtle difference, I know, but a difference.
IMHO, the Ancients had more than ample technology and time to tinker with genes of all kinds of critters and apparently without any morale objections against it; the 3I, again IMHO, not so much. I'm partial to keeping the dark secrets of uplifting out of the hands of the 3I if only to maintain the mystique of the Ancients.
Another example would be say ... re-animating dead flesh; let's pretend the Ancients had developed a method to resurrect individuals without significant degradation to the intellect and persona of said being (or maybe not, that could be fun!). I'm all for the Ancients having had the capability, just not anyone in the 3I. Whether it's government or mega-corp conspiracies that keep the technology out of the public or some component that can't currently be replicated, it doesn't matter. It should be a Mystery of the Ancients. But as mentioned, it could also be fun if the 3I did manage to uncover some of the details, but the experiments go wrong and instead of the product being identical, there's something a little odd about the resurrected flesh (much like Pet Sematary).
Now, that could be interesting ...
IMHO, the Ancients had more than ample technology and time to tinker with genes of all kinds of critters and apparently without any morale objections against it; the 3I, again IMHO, not so much. I'm partial to keeping the dark secrets of uplifting out of the hands of the 3I if only to maintain the mystique of the Ancients.
Another example would be say ... re-animating dead flesh; let's pretend the Ancients had developed a method to resurrect individuals without significant degradation to the intellect and persona of said being (or maybe not, that could be fun!). I'm all for the Ancients having had the capability, just not anyone in the 3I. Whether it's government or mega-corp conspiracies that keep the technology out of the public or some component that can't currently be replicated, it doesn't matter. It should be a Mystery of the Ancients. But as mentioned, it could also be fun if the 3I did manage to uncover some of the details, but the experiments go wrong and instead of the product being identical, there's something a little odd about the resurrected flesh (much like Pet Sematary).
Now, that could be interesting ...
Last edited:
"Imperial scientists use the name Homo sapiens antiquus for the population sampled by the Ancients. In fact, it isn't clear whether the samples were all of the same biological species [...] At least some of the Ancients' samples may have been from wandering bands of Homo erectus.
[...]
On top of Ancient genetic manipulation, the scattered populations experienced millenia of separate evolution. This further encouraged them to diverge, into distinct varieties and even into distinct species.
MODERN HUMANITI
As a result, not all of the "Humans" in Charted Space are biologically Human. Instead, some of the Human-descended races are hominids, members of the genus Homo, but not necessarily of the Species Homo sapiens. Technically, Humans are hominids too, but the term is usually applied to distinguish those species which are not interfertile with Homo sapiens."
[GT:Humaniti, p. 6]
The text goes on to point out that limited interfertility and advanced medical aid to conception and viability tend to blur the distinctions quite a bit, causing all sorts of scientific dissent.[...]
On top of Ancient genetic manipulation, the scattered populations experienced millenia of separate evolution. This further encouraged them to diverge, into distinct varieties and even into distinct species.
MODERN HUMANITI
As a result, not all of the "Humans" in Charted Space are biologically Human. Instead, some of the Human-descended races are hominids, members of the genus Homo, but not necessarily of the Species Homo sapiens. Technically, Humans are hominids too, but the term is usually applied to distinguish those species which are not interfertile with Homo sapiens."
[GT:Humaniti, p. 6]
Hans
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
And that "Ancient genetic manipulation" is what I am referring to... Grandfather tinkering with what he relocated (and some say with what he left behind).
But the Ancients didn't tinker with all their human samples. Besides, 'uplifted' is the wrong word for what genetic tinkering that did occur. So far we haven't heard of any Human race that has had its intelligence enhanced. Homo sapiens antiquus was already intelligent. Also, the ones left behind on Terra evolved into Homo sapiens sapiens with no tinkering at all.
Hans
WarriorKnight
SOC-12
Is there a CT/MT/T4/MgT set of racial modifers for the Ursoids?
No, but I can cobble one together pretty easily
Ursa, male
ht 200 +4d6 (x5)
mass 300 x (4d6) kg
Ursa, female
Ht, cm 180 +4d6 (x5)
mass 250 x (4d6) kg
+2 Str, +1Con, -1 Dex, -1 Int, -2 Soc
• Ursa base speed is same as vargr
• Armor as Jack-1 or worn, use better
• Low Light Vision: Ursa can see twice as far as humans
in starlight, moonlight, or other low light conditions.
• CT slap does claws, hug does 2d fists
• MT slap is claws, hug is Claws -1 pen & +1 Dmg
WarriorKnight
SOC-12
Thanks Aramis. I'm crappy at figuring conversions out.I usually go to high.
^ So did I ever tell you guys about the time I had my players get hired to find and transport a mercenary group to help defend an outpost from the dread pirate Goldenmane, scourge of the Trojan Reach? They landed on a very promising world known for having fierce Ursine warriors.
The first group they contacted was a heavy armor battalion, but there was no way to lift all their grav tanks.
The second group was a special operations squad, great for black ops but they didn't have the fire power necessary to hold a pirate horde.
The third group was a mechanized infantry company with exactly the expertise and equipment needed. And it all fit just right.
Boy did I get a beat down when they finally got the joke!
The first group they contacted was a heavy armor battalion, but there was no way to lift all their grav tanks.
The second group was a special operations squad, great for black ops but they didn't have the fire power necessary to hold a pirate horde.
The third group was a mechanized infantry company with exactly the expertise and equipment needed. And it all fit just right.
Boy did I get a beat down when they finally got the joke!
Similar threads
OTU Only:
Sword Worlds Admirals
