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Uplifted Apes

No, please no Uplifts other than the Ancient uplifts - Vargr should be the only ones. I know about the DGP line, but, I always used the Gene War as a shameful exercise in Terran excesses during the IW. Subsquently, all uplifts play native/stupid till they were bred out of existance by the dawn of the Third Imperium.
 
There are at least 5 solomani uplifts in canon:
dolphins, chimps, gorillas, orangs and ursa.

human genetic engineering is responsible for one more minor race, IIRC.
 
There are at least 5 solomani uplifts in canon:
dolphins, chimps, gorillas, orangs and ursa.

human genetic engineering is responsible for one more minor race, IIRC.

Yes, I know...:(

But, I was thinking what is my OTU...well I creating an imaginary montage of all CT art from FASA/GDW/DGP/Gamelords essentially all the Keith stuff... and there is my Traveller universe replete with aliens but not silly things (IMHO) like Uplifts or talking animals.
 
Wil, maybe the species on your list aren't that silly but extend much further beyond that and we start getting a little ridiculous. Eventually it gets out of hand and then you might as well be playing Albedo or TMNT instead of Traveller.

I still hold that uplifting carries a heavy moral and economic price when compared to simplier solutions. There are already species that exist in the OTU that fill the environmental niches that uplifted species are normally created to fill and for extreme environments you always have machines or humans in suits. Nobody wants to be mining methane ice on Pluto, regardless if you're an uplifted polar bear or not.

In the case of the Solomani, I guess the you could excuse this behavior as Terran-centric and assume they wouldn't want to invite species from outside the Sphere to take up residence, even if it was cheaper. And with the general attitude of what-ever-it-takes-to-beat-the-Imperium, the moral question of essentially creating slave races could also be ignored.

But aren't the Vargr and Aslan are enough to satiate the fur inclined crowd? Do we really need bears, foxes, and bunnies?
 
But aren't the Vargr and Aslan are enough to satiate the fur inclined crowd? Do we really need bears, foxes, and bunnies?

No. But th Chimps, Gorillas, and Orangs make perfect sense; add a bit more brain, and voluntary diaphragm motion, and you get a quaddie...

The Dolphins and Orcas make a certain sense for exploitation of certain worlds.

I honestly think that the number of minors is too high unless there are a LOT more uplifts than evolveds.
 
I honestly think that the number of minors is too high unless there are a LOT more uplifts than evolveds.
I'm sure the canonical figures for minor races (roughly 100 known inside the Imperium, roughly 300 more known in the rest of Charted Space) excludes any that were uplifted. Same for minor human races (47+1).


Hans
 
Chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutangs. Sounds awfully familiar. I wonder if there's a world where all three species live together? :D


Hans
 
Chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutangs. Sounds awfully familiar. I wonder if there's a world where all three species live together? :D


Hans
Well, Dave the Orang was mayor of MegaCity1....
Planet of the Apes, as well...
Not to mention Brynn's Uplift series uses Chimps, Gorillas, Dolphins and Orcas...

Uplifts of the other apes are pretty common in SF.

More seriously, all three are just close enough to the edge of the uncanny valley that they (usually) hit the cute spot just before it dives off into unsettling. Further, all three are known tool users, and tool makers. Further still, the relevant genes for the various differences are being isolated already; uplifts shouldn't be an issue for more than a few more decades; once possible, it's almost inevitable that someone will uplift them.
 
But would they be truly uplifts or just hybrids? Could Solomani scientists resist the temptation to cut corners and use human DNA to bridge the gap, particularly since there is genetic parity.

Dolpins and Orca would be a more significant challenge as human DNA would not be as useful without making some adjustments. Perhaps Vargr DNA would be a substitute depending on who Ambilocetus is most related to today? At one time it was a dog like ancestor; last week it was hippos.

As for Planet of the Apes; we all can see where uplifting can cause a lot of trouble. Are we sure we want the Solomani turning everything into a sentient being?
 
But would they be truly uplifts or just hybrids?

There is no difference there, Ran. Uplifting is the process of making proto- or non-sentient species into sentient ones. In vitro hyrbridization is one viable means of so doing. If not, in the case of Chimps, about the only sensible approach.

Current Ethics vary between regions/nations... from no human DNA work to allowing humand DNA in small snippets into experimental animals; the USA is in the latter, as was the UK last I heard, and most of the so-called 1st world.
 
However it was done, Chimpanzees, Gorillas, and Orangutangs were uplifted. And this thread has made me wonder if perhaps some of them found a planet of their own, and what it evolved into. (I don't recall when this uplift took place?)

Say that some of them decided they wanted a world of their own. Of course they would have wanted one each, but let's assume that this wasn't feasible and they wound up with representatives of all three species being sent to the same world. I very much doubt that they would use the "Planet of the Apes" as a model for the structure of their society (Although the movies may well be regarded as wonderful farces). But how would they organize themselves? And how would that society had evolved? And where would the world they wound up on be located?

Any ideas?


Hans
 
But how would they organize themselves? And how would that society had evolved? And where would the world they wound up on be located?


Hans,

whew... those seemingly simple questions would need an entire sourcebook to answer.

Let me tackle the last question first. Where would the "Terro-primate Homeworld" world be located in the OTU? Far rimward of the Solomani Confederation is my best guess.

We've already got the canonical Gene Wars, allegedly sparked by a primate uplift effort or efforts after the First Rim War and some of the uplifted primates are said to still in hiding within the Confederation. If the uplifted primates were able to escape the Gene Wars only real direction they can take is rimward.

Coreward and spinward are the Imperium and Heirate. In the former, the primates will just be another neglected minor race at best and continually suspected Sollie agents at worst. In the latter, the primates could possibly be treated better as long as they act exactly like Aslan.

As for trailing, that's leads to the Federation and the Hivers will be eager to continue the primates' "uplift" through means other than genetics.

It seems the only real direction to escape is rimward and, seeing as the primates already have Solomani allies and sympathizers, it's also the easiest direction in which to escape too.

With regards to the type of society the primates would create, you can make a good argument for several kinds. Realistically, we should examine the pre-sentient social groupings each species creates and extrapolate post-uplift societies from there. That doesn't seem to hold true with Traveller uplifts however.

Dolphins fit into human societies well enough, aside from quirky notions about private property, and the Ursa might as well be humans complete with nuclear families, despite the fact that male bears will hunt and kill bear cubs if given the chance.


Regards,
Bill
 
whew... those seemingly simple questions would need an entire sourcebook to answer.
How about a few scattered notions to start with? :)

We've already got the canonical Gene Wars, allegedly sparked by a primate uplift effort or efforts after the First Rim War and some of the uplifted primates are said to still in hiding within the Confederation. If the uplifted primates were able to escape the Gene Wars only real direction they can take is rimward.
I'm afraid I haven't paid much attention to the canon about the various uplifts and the Gene Wars. Are you saying the gorillas, chimps, and 'tangs are no longer present in the region near Terra, having fled from some menace? And were the Gene Wars as recent as post the creation of the Solomani Sphere? Somehow I'd gotten the notion that they were an RoM phenomenon.

Coreward and spinward are the Imperium and Heirate. In the former, the primates will just be another neglected minor race at best and continually suspected Sollie agents at worst. In the latter, the primates could possibly be treated better as long as they act exactly like Aslan.
What's wrong with being a neglected minor race (three races, actually)? More to the point, would the leaders of the expedition have taken that into account?

It seems the only real direction to escape is rimward and, seeing as the primates already have Solomani allies and sympathizers, it's also the easiest direction in which to escape too.
Tell me more about this escape. I'm not opposed to putting Primateworld in the Far Rim, but I think it would be of more general use if it was closer to Traveller's main stomping grounds.

With regards to the type of society the primates would create, you can make a good argument for several kinds. Realistically, we should examine the pre-sentient social groupings each species creates and extrapolate post-uplift societies from there. That doesn't seem to hold true with Traveller uplifts however.
Intelligence has the potential to rise above instinctual behavior. Nature vs. nuture and all that.

One thing that's potentially very interesting would be the interaction between the three species. It probably won't be 'Tangs = administrators, Chimps = scientists, Gorillas = military. But there could be other species-linked proclivities.


Hans
 
I'm afraid I haven't paid much attention to the canon about the various uplifts and the Gene Wars. Are you saying the gorillas, chimps, and 'tangs are no longer present in the region near Terra, having fled from some menace?


Hans,

I can't cut & paste the entire Gene War section of Solomani & Aslan, but here are the high points.

Uplift of "Simians" was begun before the Interstellar War period in an effort to produce "quaddies" for a zero-gee work force. The development of artificial gravity ended the project before the simians reached true sapience. The results of this aborted project were still somehow useful and a "small number of orangutans and gibbons involved were scattered among a handful of minor colonies" by the time the Interstellar Wars began. (The italicized section is a direct quote.)

Jump forward centuries and Confederation scientists secretly complete the project. First, the entire passage constantly refers to "Confederation" scientists, "Confederation" reactions, "Confederation" this, and "Confederation" that, so it's pretty clear the event take place after the Rim War. Second, it is explicitly stated that the scientists had an ulterior motive for finishing the project and doing so in secret: They want to "develop techniques to speed evolution in humans". (That's another direct quote.)

After the "speeding human evolution" bit leaks out, there's a giant public relations failure which leads to first a witch hunt and finally a war. Like much of DGP's stuff, that result is a real head-scratcher. After all, the Sollies have already geneered several types of human "wogs" for various purposes. There's those illos of the guys with pipe organs in their heads in S&A and an entire Brave New World-lite world which produces "workers" and "executives"(1). Why more human geneering suddenly sparked a witch hunt and war is rather befuddling.

Anyway, the Simians got caught in the crossfire. The group or groups who uplifted them were being hunted down and executed, so they were guilty by association. As S&A states, the Sollies "stepped short of exterminating the Simians, but they also deliberately ignored them from that time on."

The same section goes onto to say that the Gene War helped propel the Confederation further down the path towards the "national security state" it has become, yet another statement which makes it clear the events took place after the Rim War. Reform movements in the Confederation are said to be trying to "tell the truth" about the Gene Wars and the Simians are also said to be part of an effort.

So, that's it. There was an post-Rim War uplift project that led to a nasty internal war which barely left a tiny number of Simians who have been deliberately ignored ever since.

What's wrong with being a neglected minor race (three races, actually)?

Two supposedly; orangs and gibbons. No mention of chimps or gorillas oddly enough.

More to the point, would the leaders of the expedition have taken that into account?

What expedition? The few Simians produced barely escaped being put down like unwanted lab animals and their descendants have been studiously ignored ever since because they're the living embodiment of a shameful episode in Sollie history. I don't think there were ever enough to form an "expedition" and it's pretty clear their descendants keep an extremely low profile.

IMHO, Simian colony ships jumping away to freedom are very unlikely. A Simian "underground railroad", on the other hand, moving small numbers of individuals along to some distant and free world is more plausible. Migrating rimward where the Confederation is thin and SolSec's grasp is weak should be easier than trying to cross the militarized borders facing the Heirate, Imperium, and Federation.

Intelligence has the potential to rise above instinctual behavior. Nature vs. nuture and all that.

Studies of our nearest relatives, the bonobos, have produced interesting insights into human sociology. While intelligence does raise above instinctive behavior, it still rests on instinctive behavior. While Ursan males shouldn't be killing Ursan children as their pre-sentient bear ancestors would, it doesn't also follow that the Ursa should be living in the 57th Century version of Mayberry RFD(2).

One thing that's potentially very interesting would be the interaction between the three species.

Orangs and gibbons. S&A also states that Sollie scientists, in particular GenAssist, have uplifted "over two dozen" alien species and, right out of the Hiver playbook, each is now a "loyal member of the Confederation"

But there could be other species-linked proclivities.

Exactly. Which is why I brought up the Ursa as a "bad example".


Regards,
Bill

1 - In one of the very few displays of casual racism I've ever seen in Traveller, the world producing specific humans for specific jobs like some insect hive just happens to be Asian-descended. :rolleyes:

2 - The Ursa are they way they are due to meta-game concerns. The T20 authors needed to keep them "player-character ready" and thus had to keep them more human than they should be. From that meta-gaming perspective, the Ursa are entirely correct.
 
Why wouldn't the Simians seek shelter among the Hivers?

It seems they would desire a buffer between themselves and their oppressors, able to provide security and resources. To the Hivers, they would be just one more Terran primate living inside their borders.

This way too, there is no Simian homeworld subject to potential pogroms by genetic purists, abuses by slavers and bounty hunters, or even squatters looking to jump claim on a colony site. A starter colony needs to be able to defend itself; the further away from civilization you get the harder that is, particularly if you have no patron with a military. And how many beings are we really talking about? A couple thousand maybe? Keep in mind, they are basically fugitives from Solomani space, putting them in a position to be exploited again. But this time who is going to come to their aid?

IMHO, the Hivers offer them something the Solomani don't, a place at the table. And maybe they don't see a little manipulation as a problem but as a opportunity to develop as a species with some coaching along the way.

An interesting idea; much like the B5 Telepath War, have militant Simians operating out of Hiver space, emancipating pockets of their brethren still in the Sphere while settling old scores with the scientists and corporations the made and abused them. Can they do it without the Hivers putting an end to their revenge scheme? Seems like the startings of a campaign.
 
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I can't cut & paste the entire Gene War section of Solomani & Aslan, but here are the high points.
I'll dig out my Cats & Rats and read it for myself.

So, that's it. There was an post-Rim War uplift project that led to a nasty internal war which barely left a tiny number of Simians who have been deliberately ignored ever since.
Too bad. I like this idea. I'll have to see if I can figure out some sort of loophole.

Two supposedly; orangs and gibbons. No mention of chimps or gorillas oddly enough.
Wil said gorillas, chimps, and orangutangs. That's what gave me the idea. I had a sudden vision of a movie theater full of Pongs[*] watching "Planet of the Apes" and laughing their asses off.

[*] Pongidae was a now-abandoned taxonomic term for the great ape family and humans were excluded from it[**]. It's not a derogatory term. No, really! Besides, they named their world 'Pongida'[***], so what did they expect?!?

[**] In other words, a term that encompassed those three species and those three alone.

[***] NB! Not canon!​

What expedition? The few Simians produced barely escaped being put down like unwanted lab animals and their descendants have been studiously ignored ever since because they're the living embodiment of a shameful episode in Sollie history. I don't think there were ever enough to form an "expedition" and it's pretty clear their descendants keep an extremely low profile.
I was spit-balling without knowledge of the canonical facts. Some vague notion about Pongs being accepted and integrated parts of the Terran population, but some of them still wanted homeworlds of their own. Objections to "wasting" three good worlds on them led to the compromise that they got one world to share. And some (Terran) Confederation help to organize it.

IMHO, Simian colony ships jumping away to freedom are very unlikely. A Simian "underground railroad", on the other hand, moving small numbers of individuals along to some distant and free world is more plausible. Migrating rimward where the Confederation is thin and SolSec's grasp is weak should be easier than trying to cross the militarized borders facing the Heirate, Imperium, and Federation.
Somehow gibbons and orangutangs don't grab my fancy the same way that chimps, gorillas, and orangutangs do. It was having the same juxtaposition of species as in "Planet of the Apes" and working out how their society wouldn't be at all like the one in the movie that appealed to me.

I really would like to come up with a rationale for such a world. >>Sigh!<<
Studies of our nearest relatives, the bonobos, have produced interesting insights into human sociology. While intelligence does raise above instinctive behavior, it still rests on instinctive behavior. While Ursan males shouldn't be killing Ursan children as their pre-sentient bear ancestors would, it doesn't also follow that the Ursa should be living in the 57th Century version of Mayberry RFD(2).
I'd love to take account of real life facts, but someone else would have to provide them. I was barely concious of the existence of gibbons and I've never heard of bonobos before (that I can remember). <Consults Wikipedia> Oh! Chimps!


Hans
 
Jump forward centuries and Confederation scientists secretly complete the project. First, the entire passage constantly refers to "Confederation" scientists, "Confederation" reactions, "Confederation" this, and "Confederation" that, so it's pretty clear the event take place after the Rim War.
I can see why it would have to be after the Solomani Autonomous Region turned itself into the Solomani Confederation in 871. But why does it have to be after the Rim War?


Hans
 
How would this work?

Ambitious scientist is in charge of one of several orangutang uplift projects. The project has been successful and his research facility is facing cutbacks, so he has created makework (further study of his orangs). He decides to get a jump on the rival research facilities, so he secretly (even more secretly, I mean) starts on uplifting both gorillas and chimps, confident that one of the two will be the next project, but unable to figure which one. His orangs are coopted as extra lab assistants.

Then the scandal breaks and suddenly all he can look forward to is being investigated and prosecuted for embezzlement. So he takes steps to pack up both his new projects and get them smuggled aboard a big hired freighter, together with his orangs and any human assistants who want to come along. Whereupon he heads for the Imperium just as the witch hunt starts in earnest. He goes directly to Capital and petitions Empress Margaret II for help (He puts his own spin on the story, of course). The Empress decides to grant his plea and turns over one of the Imperium's reservation worlds to him and his charges[*]. (Maybe make the orangs and the two other species wards of the Imperium?)

[*] Or part of one. A continent or a big island really would be more thrifty. But I really would like them to have an entire planet to themselves.​

This would give the Pongidans (Please! Not 'Pongs'!) the better part of two centuries to develop before the Classic Era.


Hans
 
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