Twilight Canada
- Thread starter Arsulon
- Start date
Canada was covered in the 2.0 book, though briefly. Roughly the same amount of detail as the US and UK.
Howling Wilderness covered the US, not just Alaska, but that was about it. There was some brief mention of Canada in the US Vehicle Guide, I think, when discussing some of the US units that fought in Alaska, the Yukon, and BC.
Howling Wilderness covered the US, not just Alaska, but that was about it. There was some brief mention of Canada in the US Vehicle Guide, I think, when discussing some of the US units that fought in Alaska, the Yukon, and BC.
Howling Wilderness had some very general statements - "lack of rainfall on the Canadian prarie provinces", that sort of thing. The Challenge issues you quoted had about 95% of the Canadian info from GDW.
But the best way to 'detail' an area is to bang out ideas with a like-minded friend - a friend and I covered Winnipeg in some pretty good detail. We had a fun time rooting through the yellow pages, tracking down stuff like some of the car dealers and parts depots [gotta have parts], noting where interesting places were in the area ["Hey - there's a float plane base north of Selkirk!" or "Did you know there's a monastary on the west end of town?"] and setting up some baselines from some of the GDW modules.
But the best way to 'detail' an area is to bang out ideas with a like-minded friend - a friend and I covered Winnipeg in some pretty good detail. We had a fun time rooting through the yellow pages, tracking down stuff like some of the car dealers and parts depots [gotta have parts], noting where interesting places were in the area ["Hey - there's a float plane base north of Selkirk!" or "Did you know there's a monastary on the west end of town?"] and setting up some baselines from some of the GDW modules.
Oops - my mistake. It wasn't Howling Wilderness [which doesn't mention Canada at all] it was Kidnapped.
It gives a quick rundown of the regions in North America but it's hit and miss: three of the atlantic provinces are grouped with 'New England' but never mentioned in the writeup, some actually helpful general outlines for most of the country [though I've never heard Ontario grouped together with Quebec as the 'Great Lakes Provinces' before, oh well] in short paragraphs, but Newfoundland and the Northwest Territories are totally ignored or forgotten.
So I guess everything is at pre-war conditions in those areas. Screech will be the new Canadian currency.
It gives a quick rundown of the regions in North America but it's hit and miss: three of the atlantic provinces are grouped with 'New England' but never mentioned in the writeup, some actually helpful general outlines for most of the country [though I've never heard Ontario grouped together with Quebec as the 'Great Lakes Provinces' before, oh well] in short paragraphs, but Newfoundland and the Northwest Territories are totally ignored or forgotten.
So I guess everything is at pre-war conditions in those areas. Screech will be the new Canadian currency.
I've found the 2.0 rulebook does a decent job, though there's still a lot for the GM to do. I just want to know what the Sovs had against Halifax
It's a target, I know, but 1.5 Mt? That's almost as much as they dumped on Ottawa In all seriousness, though, it's those kinds of glaring errors that Jon pointed out that I hope don't crop up again in the new book and was a lot of what I was getting at when I asked that the new version be less US-centric.
1. I lived in Dryden for five years.
2. Are ther any interesting places in Winterpeg?
3. I was crossing Portage and Main in the winter before the underground!
4. It's a good idea to do that. Calgary and Victoria would be other fun ones, and I'd enjoy doing Kingston or Ottawa too.
My old office mate is a Haligonian. They'd have to dump that much on them for fear of them taking over the world after the collapse of Civilization. If Alexander Kieth's suddenly became formal currency, they'd rule the universe...
Far be it from them to find anyone from Canada to actually help them out
Far be it from them to find anyone from Canada to actually help them out
Hmm, that might not be such a bad idea, that Keith's became a form of currencyOriginally posted by kaladorn:
My old office mate is a Haligonian. They'd have to dump that much on them for fear of them taking over the world after the collapse of Civilization. If Alexander Kieth's suddenly became formal currency, they'd rule the universe...
Far be it from them to find anyone from Canada to actually help them out
1. Dryden's a paper mill town, isn't it? They'd be in trouble after T2K unless they could set up a caravan to trade for food.
2. Well, a 1 MT airburst would at least melt the snow, then you could scrounge up some stuff before it froze over again.
3. Brrr. Now it's even more fun, because you get to dodge traffic as you run into the wind.
4. Having locals 'do' each area would probably be the best way to get good info on conditions postwar - I loved GDW's stuff, but there's only so much you can get from a reference book when you're thousands of miles away.
And I loved some of the original modules, but some of that was of pretty limited use - I have the "Epic" repackaging of "Free City of Krakow" and where the first one had a bunch of top-level NPCs that most parties would probably never deal with, the Epic version had more crime lords and black marketeers, more reasonable characters to include.
The game can be less US-centric by avoiding glaring errors such as forcing characters from other nations to start with US kit that those nations don't use, it can be less US-centric by not forcing non-US NATO characters to be subordinate to lower-ranking US characters, it can be less US-centric by making a better effort than was made in the first version to actually get certain countries' data correct.
The game can still be focussed on the US without the rest of the world being presented through US-filtered glasses. Or, in other words, let's tone down the Tom Clancification of the game.
As for France suffering less than the US in v1.0/2.0, it makes perfect sense. France is not a military member of NATO, only the political side, meaning that a war as was presented in 1.0/2.0 meant that France would only be involved if attacked. No fighting took place on French soil, the Warsaw Pact only attacked French targets during the general attacks on "neutral" ports and refining facilities, and, in the 2.0 history, France actually withdraws from NATO completely once the Germans invoke Article 5.
gonna have to disagree with you sir.
Fact is alot of nations use US kit, when i served in iraq we confiscated m16s from iraqi soldiers on a regular basis and on one occasion even took out an iraqi 113. Israel, saudi arabia, most of central america and more besides all use US made equipment to one degree or another.
Canada uses many US weapons in their kit as well .. m16, modified 113s ect ect so again not an issue really. as for chain of comand as a US soldier in the field there is no way in hell i would have taken orders from some foriegn officer/nco regardless of rank so I guess i dont have a problem with that side of the rules either.
seems pretty realistic.
Now on the issue of France, France is in far to strategic a position and holds far to many resources to be left alone. if the warsaw pack did not invade them the US/UK would have, but only if they were quicker about it than Germany.
good news is regardless of how the war is written Canada will still lead the world at being just north of the US
Fact is alot of nations use US kit, when i served in iraq we confiscated m16s from iraqi soldiers on a regular basis and on one occasion even took out an iraqi 113. Israel, saudi arabia, most of central america and more besides all use US made equipment to one degree or another.
Canada uses many US weapons in their kit as well .. m16, modified 113s ect ect so again not an issue really. as for chain of comand as a US soldier in the field there is no way in hell i would have taken orders from some foriegn officer/nco regardless of rank so I guess i dont have a problem with that side of the rules either.
seems pretty realistic.
Now on the issue of France, France is in far to strategic a position and holds far to many resources to be left alone. if the warsaw pack did not invade them the US/UK would have, but only if they were quicker about it than Germany.
good news is regardless of how the war is written Canada will still lead the world at being just north of the US
Yes, a number of nations use US kit. That's not what I was objecting to, it was the rather sloppy research done in 2.0 at least, where the kit list for Canada had M60s and M9s, neither of which Canada uses, and left out some weapons that are standard issue. My thinking was that, if the designers can't get things right for a country just next door, how much of their other data is suspect?
On the chain of command issue, what you're saying is that if you were stationed in Germany as part of the NATO armies, that the US chain of command would only respond to US officers? Why should the US be special? British units take orders from German commanders if they happen to be assigned to a German corps. Same goes for Canadian units part of US VII Corps.
This highlights what I was trying to say about being too US-centric; namely, that any PC unit is assumed in the rules to be a US unit. There's no need to put such a slant on the game.
As far as France goes, trouble is, the "history" of the Twilight War says they weren't invaded. And had NATO tried, NATO would have been crushed, as they barely had the strength to fight the Warsaw Pact, much less the Warsaw Pact and France. The Warsaw Pact was facing similar issues, having suffered serious losses in the war against China. Given the state the world was in, no one would have had the resources to squander on an invasion of a France which hadn't been fighting. Even Italy didn't touch France when Italy came into the war, and the Italians were just as fresh as the French.
On the chain of command issue, what you're saying is that if you were stationed in Germany as part of the NATO armies, that the US chain of command would only respond to US officers? Why should the US be special? British units take orders from German commanders if they happen to be assigned to a German corps. Same goes for Canadian units part of US VII Corps.
This highlights what I was trying to say about being too US-centric; namely, that any PC unit is assumed in the rules to be a US unit. There's no need to put such a slant on the game.
As far as France goes, trouble is, the "history" of the Twilight War says they weren't invaded. And had NATO tried, NATO would have been crushed, as they barely had the strength to fight the Warsaw Pact, much less the Warsaw Pact and France. The Warsaw Pact was facing similar issues, having suffered serious losses in the war against China. Given the state the world was in, no one would have had the resources to squander on an invasion of a France which hadn't been fighting. Even Italy didn't touch France when Italy came into the war, and the Italians were just as fresh as the French.
I agree with the kit complaint, i can imagine how peeved I would be if the game got US kit wrong...wait they did that M1a2 abrams with remote control turret was painful. I hated that!!
As for the US slant, to defend the creators..the game was probably written by and had americans as the target audiance. I am sure no offence was meant by it but again I see where you could feel upset. kinda how I feel about the USA being made a minor player in 2300.
France... we have to accept that the history as written by GDW is not in all places logical or believable. I think real history shows us what will happen. France has never escaped being invaded in the last 200 years during every major war in europe. of course if the war started elsewhere say asia or the middle east then....
Now, the more interesting question is who is the bad guys now that the warsaw pact is gone? in light of current headlines my vote would be for radical islamist to sit it off by detonating a nuke somewhere in the US or UK which might cause the US to respond with vigor which might anger the rest of the islamic world enough to jump in.
after that we just let the rest of the countries fall to which ever side seems natural. maybe check out the religious statistics of each nation and drop them on one side or the other based on the info gleaned. figure Chechnia<sp?> manages to grab a few russian nukes.
If this were to happen France with its 40% muslim population could go to either side or maybe devolve into a religious civil war. Jyhad 2023. paris vanishes in a nuclear blast or is invades by North african alliance of Morocco/Algeria/ Libya. then who knows Israel might start chucking bombs at Syria, Lebenon, and Egypt. Egypt invades Israel pushing them back to tel aviv, the US and friends deploy troops to help Israel, India throws down on Pakistan, China comes to N.Koreas aid and invades Japan and Alaska, ect, ect.
Of course the US could get involved in a war with N.korea and drag china, NATO, and russia, ect, ect into it until the whole world is involved.
maybe Malaysia decides it doesnt like how Australia treats illegals and decides to get involved.
Just a few thoughts
that M1a2 abrams with remote control turret was painful. I hated that!!As for the US slant, to defend the creators..the game was probably written by and had americans as the target audiance. I am sure no offence was meant by it but again I see where you could feel upset. kinda how I feel about the USA being made a minor player in 2300.
France... we have to accept that the history as written by GDW is not in all places logical or believable. I think real history shows us what will happen. France has never escaped being invaded in the last 200 years during every major war in europe. of course if the war started elsewhere say asia or the middle east then....
Now, the more interesting question is who is the bad guys now that the warsaw pact is gone? in light of current headlines my vote would be for radical islamist to sit it off by detonating a nuke somewhere in the US or UK which might cause the US to respond with vigor which might anger the rest of the islamic world enough to jump in.
after that we just let the rest of the countries fall to which ever side seems natural. maybe check out the religious statistics of each nation and drop them on one side or the other based on the info gleaned. figure Chechnia<sp?> manages to grab a few russian nukes.
If this were to happen France with its 40% muslim population could go to either side or maybe devolve into a religious civil war. Jyhad 2023. paris vanishes in a nuclear blast or is invades by North african alliance of Morocco/Algeria/ Libya. then who knows Israel might start chucking bombs at Syria, Lebenon, and Egypt. Egypt invades Israel pushing them back to tel aviv, the US and friends deploy troops to help Israel, India throws down on Pakistan, China comes to N.Koreas aid and invades Japan and Alaska, ect, ect.
Of course the US could get involved in a war with N.korea and drag china, NATO, and russia, ect, ect into it until the whole world is involved.
maybe Malaysia decides it doesnt like how Australia treats illegals and decides to get involved.
Just a few thoughts
Well, I think using current affairs as the basis for the new timeline is the wrong way to go, if for no other reason than the entire Islamic world (whatever that is) put together couldn't hurt the US. We need a new verison of the original Twilight War. Maybe China gets too big and goes after Russia, or something starts in or near to Russia and that drags the US in in the wrong side with the rest of Europe splitting down the middle. Almost anything is better than using terrorism as an excuse.
I suppose France tearing itself apart isn't beyond the realm of possibility. It has strategic nukes, after all, and things could get very messy there.
I actually liked how they made the US a minor player in 2300. It was a nice change from the typical "US saves the planet" theme. But yeah, some of the kit in the books is...funny...read
I suppose France tearing itself apart isn't beyond the realm of possibility. It has strategic nukes, after all, and things could get very messy there.
I actually liked how they made the US a minor player in 2300. It was a nice change from the typical "US saves the planet" theme. But yeah, some of the kit in the books is...funny...read
figure all of north africa, the middle east, pakistan, and the break away states of Russia <chechnya, kazekstan, turkmenistan> Malaysia and co. added all together i would imaging the islamic nations could form a powerful alliance, especially if you assume some industrialisation in a few key nations such as Egypt and Malaysia.
Though I could understand the writers being a bit leery of casting the Islamists as the bad guys but its not an entirely impossible future.
another option is this.
USA is the bad guy..a fundamentalist christian leader is elected and assumes the role of charismatic dictator <alah revolution 2020> and starts trowing its weight around in the Americas. Canada resists while Mexico joins the US. Wars wage from the arctic to the antartic as Fascist USA and its allies roll over one country after another...Texas and Alaska withdraw from the union and are invaded, intense fighting near dallas, Alaskans light up the pipeline to slow down US armor.
Canada is swept under advancing US armor but manage to hold Ontario during harsh fighting in the winter of 2020. 200,000 die in the siege of Ontario but they hold. Quebecoix<sp?> government betrays the canadians and joins the US side but falls into a state of civil war before it can bring its army to bear against the rest of canada. loyalists and rebels grind the city to dust in harsh city block to city block warfare but loyalist win after US troops withdrawing from Ontario intervene.
Mexico crushes Central america with its combination of man power and US made equipment, the world protests the massacre of managua where mexican units execute 100,000 civilians. Mexican 901st Inf{mech} rolls into south america but meets stiff resistance from Colombian units holding the andes mountain passes. The front grinds into a war of attrition in the jungles and highlands with Mexico slowly gaining the upper hand.
US marines land in Brazil and Argentina. Chile joins the US alliance and invades colombia from the south and Bolivia. Chile/US forces take Bogota but suffer huge losses due to the Bolivian militarys use of newly supplied, state of the art european made weapons. War slowly grinds into a jungle war in the Amazon basin.
Meanwhile In Europe the Italian, Spanish, Russian, and French governments all join the US led alliance. this causes the most problems in france and Russia where the move angeres both their nieghbors and their sizable Islamic populations. After some protests and riots French military units ruthlessly crush protestors drawing cries of outrage from its north african nieghbors and the more moderate nations of Europe. when France begins shipping its muslim citizens to internment camps war is declared by the North African alliance.
French fighters and naval assets are hard pressed to hold back the combined forces of Egypt, Libya, and Algeria who make tremendous use of newly supplied Chi-com fighters and lift assets. 498th swords of Jibril <Egypt> land on Sardinia while units with the Libyan naval infantry occupy southern Italy. Italian counter attack leads to the day of the bloody sea as thousands of retreating NAA troops are slaughtered on the beach south of Napals<sp?>.
Russian Troops enter the mediterranean arena when they move the southern fleets from the black sea. during the move rounds are exchanged between Russian ships and Turkish units. Turkey declares War on the US alliance and is answered in turn.
a few months later Russian armor crosses thru Georgia and into Turkey. this cause a chain reaction as war is declared by Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia.
The UK closes its borders and attempts to blockade itself from the rest of europe.
Indian Invades Pakistan. no one is sure why but years of bad blood are finally acted upon.
German units on maneuvers near the French border stumble across and are attacked by French units. before the German government is aware of the situation french forces have penitrated 50 kilometers into Germany and the French government has declared war. Germany declares war in turn and counter attacks, french units are decimated as german units push into France. German units crush the already strained french units and moves into the outskirts of Paris.
in Spring 2028 US and Mexican forces Land in France and move to engage the German army while Russian forces blitz thru Poland, Russian troops with czech allies are engaging german forces within 50 kilometers of berlin within two months. In the fall Chinese troops move into Siberia and invade the Alaskan islands. Russian eastern units move to engage but are overwhelmed by the Chi-com forces.
Combined Syrian, Egyptian, Iraqi, Iranian, and Jordanian forces Invade Israel, Israeli forces fight fiercely for every inch of ground but are pushed back. Jerusalem falls. Tel Aviv holds only due to the quick landing of Russian spetznaz and US airborn units.
April 5 2028 21:00am Russian commander Vasily Proschev orders the launch of Nuclear missles against Chinese troop concentrations. China answeres in kind. within the next week nearly every missle in every arsenal is launched.
Sorry for the length of the post and the horrid spelling and grammar. just shareing a few ideas
That's the best proposal I've seen thus far on how a new Twilight War might develop. And if the US as bad guy rankles some folks too much, perhaps the US might be tricked into attacking someone, a la By Dawn's Early Light, or the premise behind the Tom Clancy novel 'The Sum of All Fears', only the truth isn't known until well after the war is over.
