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Traveller Timeline Reconciliation?

At the link in my signature is my web area with my idea. This is the embryonic stages of trying to grasp some sort of solution to the Timeline Hydra.

It involves looking back on human History entirely from the Far Future, like the cover says.

I don't think it should be a warmed over Dr. Who or anything, but time travel could be a fix for ALL TUs if done right, and it could also be kind of cool!

Make the background be entirely in hindsight, not only looking into the past, but also alternate pasts?

Please, If I am found wandering around the countryside, just have them read my tag and call the number on it..
 
Hi

I had a similar idea a while back (and IIRC posted a passing comment on the TML at the time). But my take was for PCs to find a time travel artifact during the 5FW and discover about the Emperor's impending assassination. How do thery stop it without proof? For game mechanics I like the time travel rules in Time Master (by Pacesetter) and especially the rules for handling temporal paradoxes in Time Tricks (supplement for same game). However, I never got round to fully trying this.

(Another idea we have in common: Imperial Money)

Regards PLST
 
My (currently sleeping) campaign is set in the "real" OTU, about the time of the Rebellion. I had a vague plan for the party to be sent back in time (using an Ancient time machine powered be a Darian Star Trigger) to prevent the assassination.
 
But does it sort of make sense what we are seeing? Like the OTU being a pool of water, and each other TU is a pebble that creates a second set of ripples (the altered timeline) when thrown in. The thing is, what does the throwing?

The Premise/roughs I had were this:

At some point, some scientists began to mess with Time Travel. Even at the vantage point of being in the Far Future (this assumes the reader has the omnipotence of history on his side.)

Time Travel is a sticky wicket. It should never be shown as being routine or untraumatic. It should be incredibly expensive, too.

Each time someone goes back into time, they begin a new paralell timeline from the instant they arrived.

It should be a one way trip, and when ever they end up become thier TU. It should not be possible to go into the future at all.

(lighting hookah)
So each TU is a paralell universe unto itself, and the pattern infinitely regresses... you could, go to the TNE era, say, be living there, and while doing so find another way to go back in time, making another Traveller parallel universe from that parallel universe. It should be so confusing and complicated that there are several research scientists of various levels of morality "lost" in the overall timeline.

Sound ok, or has my potato been baking too long?
 
Baron, good idea in principle. The big problem with Time Travel, is what IW calls the Default Present making each trip entirely isolated makes the possibility of story continuation and canon very difficult. I rather prefer the GURPS approach that talks about different options White - being the Default OTU, Grey & Black being alternative ways of seeing then Alternate being casting off what has been written in the OTU and going with the seat one's pants. Then it is up to the Ref to write history by filling in the broad strokes that canon (and suggested canon) has provided an outline of.

But given Marc's (and mine, although I don't think I will get a credit in T5) idea of supplements dealing with different milieux, Time Travel might be the way to bring all these things together. The Ultimate Traveller Trip - the Past, Present and Future.

A word about canon, I am not sure, but it seems like there is no canon bible for the Traveller Universe just the dates noted in the beginning of the Imperial Encyclopedia...the flushing out of such a bible and making it public might help fandom actually produce things consistant with an overall vision which we seem to be on the losing end of the stick.
 
Right. Think its like the main setting would become the OTU, the setting of which should be "the Far Future" an undefined (yet?) future society capable of one-way Time Travel, and also with a perspective on Universal History that would allow for total objectivity in presentation of facts and data.

You could go back say , to the time of the Ancients, and hang out, but how would you relate what you had seen to the people in your altered future? PCs that did go back anywhere should be there for good. Just like Jump Drives take a week to work. That's the catch.

What we dont need to do is define the otu per se beyond rules, what we need to do is all work on defining the specific eras that we enjoy.

There would be one OTU, and an infinite number of other possibilities beyond that. Its like it really is, but with a spacy tale stretched behind it. You could expand things to a universe hopping game, and you wouldn't need to do it lame like they would on Star Trek, where apparently people go back in time all the time, but nobody really acknowledges it.

How would the people of the Far Future know all about this stuff? People in these eras leave predesignated clues? Some method of trans-temporal communication? Psionics? Point is, even the OTU has enough room to do anything. But stuff needs to change.

Did anyone notice that on this Twilight:2000 predates the present day?
 
I guess someone has to be the voice of dissent here.


Baron, I totally understand what you are trying to do here, but all this talk of "alternate timelines" stinks too much of bad DC Comics continuity. (I mean serioulsy - I very irregularly follow the LSH and that has had so many "alternate universe" explanations and time manipulations, it literally makes one's head hurt).

But there are two overriding things here for me - one, that Time Travel should only really happen in one direction, that being forward. Two - even if Time Travel were possible (backwards, that is), it should be one of those "you can't change the timeline conundrums", i.e., the past is set and nothing that can be done will change things, as they have already happened, as it were.

But that is just my view from a purist standpoint. I would say of you want to play your characters in an alternate setting, just do it. Thinking about timeline and alternate universe mechanics usually requires several beers and/or margaritas to make one think straight again. ;)
 
I agree at the aversion to the "Crisis on Infiinite TRaveller Earths" But I also have an aversion to the sloppiness of the OTU and the whole Canon thing. If it is an issue, it should make sense. Right now it seems a little lacking in focus.

We're not talking about what happend to The Reverse Flash on Counter Earth 2's Brother in Law. (I speak fluent Comic) I only suggest it to offer some solution to the continuity mess, and I do not intend it as a cmapaign, just a unified spine to all this Traveller stuff goin all over the place.

Also, After the Rebellion, and Virus, I think we have no room to crack on DC. They get a little slack cut for Alan Moore. At least it could be Modern Marvel, eh?
 
To illustrate, I forgot to add 2320 and Mileiu Zero to the pile.

What if: Each Era "Master" supplement was implemented as an expedition into the past/another dimension/etc. Where the central presenters of material would be a crew of Travellers? A fusion of supplement, background, and adventure all in one? That could be a good tie-in device as well as a good way to get ideas of characterization across to new players. Perspectives of the different eras could be told by different specialists, for example...

One thing that also needs to go is the reluctance to address normal science fiction concepts and give them the Traveller touch. Time travel, extra dimensional travel are already touched on in Canon, so why not use it? It may be a bit confusing at first, but why not?
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
(I speak fluent Comic)
file_21.gif
This had me chuckling for a while...

I only suggest it to offer some solution to the continuity mess, and I do not intend it as a cmapaign, just a unified spine to all this Traveller stuff goin all over the place.
So a sourcebook, then? Which really isn't a bad idea at all. It would be nice to consolidate all the previous Traveller settings into a nice concise book.

But what you are saying seems to imply there are disconnects between the different OTU editions. As far as I knew, the only "alternate" OTU timelines was GURPS and MT/TNE/1248, as the divergence is the assassination. What else is there?

M:0 is at the beginning of the 3I, T20 is in the late 1000's (right? I may be wrong about that, as I don't play it), and now we have Interstellar Wars. But these are all in the past of the "current" times.

The Twilight:2000/2300 AD/2320 timeline was never part of the OTU, so I guess you could consider them alternate in the sense that they were never in the timeline to begin with.
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Also, After the Rebellion, and Virus, I think we have no room to crack on DC. They get a little slack cut for Alan Moore. At least it could be Modern Marvel, eh?
Nah. Given the knots they try to untangle trying to make the different versions of the Legion make sense continuity-wise, they should burn. :D



One thing that also needs to go is the reluctance to address normal science fiction concepts and give them the Traveller touch. Time travel, extra dimensional travel are already touched on in Canon, so why not use it? It may be a bit confusing at first, but why not?
I may have missed this, but how has time travel been addressed in Canon, aside from the only way of doing it is freezing yourself and waking up every couple hundred years?
 
Personal opinion time:

My approach to the Traveller Universe (the official one) is that there is one and only one 'real' universe (well, two, but I the GTU is identical to the OTU up until somewhere around 1116). The various Traveller versions are RPGs set in this universe, and as anyone who has seen RPGs set in historical settings know, sometimes the authors of RPGs gets the details wrong, either deliberately simplifying or accidentally messing up. So when CT rules says that one particular world has a GWP of X and GT rules says that it has a GWP of Y and Pocket Empires come up with a third figure, they're probably all three a bit off. I then either ignore the differences (that's often the case) or sit down and try to figure out the 'truth'. But whether or not I care enough to do something about it, I'm quite sure that there is only one[*] truth to be found.


Hans

[*] Well, two. ;)
 
This would be a step towards alleviating that problem. eliminmation of the (albeit fun for my like, what) completely unecessary "find the real facts" step. Or at least try to incorporate it into some sort of history for the System in question. If there are multiple entries then we find out why and how to fix for good.

It is stuff like that that I believe prevents Traveller from having a "Tatooine" or what have you. These "places" often do not have the "feel" of Places. I have heard about Regina and all that, but what's it like, really? Again a shift to establishing a standard of background development of places will serve well. Otherwise, its just blocks of data to most...
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
It is stuff like that that I believe prevents Traveller from having a "Tatooine" or what have you. These "places" often do not have the "feel" of Places. I have heard about Regina and all that, but what's it like, really? Again a shift to establishing a standard of background development of places will serve well. Otherwise, its just blocks of data to most...
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. A world is a big place and it takes man-hours to do a write-up of one. As it happens, no one has yet spent the necessary time to write up Regina[*]. Very few worlds in the OTU has been written up. It's just not possible to write up all of them, or even a significant number (Though I grant you that Regina is an obvious candidate for a writeup)..


Hans

[*] No one with any official standing, that is. Glenn Goffin did a long history of Regina that I've since added to, I'm working on two historical campaign settings set on Regina (one in the 2nd Century and one around year 400), and I'm currently involved with a group of people trying to finish a campaign setting set in Regina Startown, so I know a lot about Regina. Unfortunately, none of that is published, so 1) It doesn't help you and 2) it could all be invalidated tomorrow if Marc (or Martin) published a different writeup of Regina. I do have a writeup of Atora (the capital of the Duchy of Regina) and an Amber Zone set on Regina (Whitmoore's Eel) published on JTAS Online, but that is not canon (though I hope that anyone who do write something canonical about Regina will feel free to use it).
 
rancke
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Icon 1 posted March 13, 2006 09:14 AMMarch 13, 2006 09:14 AM Profile for rancke Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Personal opinion time:

My approach to the Traveller Universe (the official one) is that there is one and only one 'real' universe (well, two, but I the GTU is identical to the OTU up until somewhere around 1116). The various Traveller versions are RPGs set in this universe, and as anyone who has seen RPGs set in historical settings know, sometimes the authors of RPGs gets the details wrong, either deliberately simplifying or accidentally messing up. So when CT rules says that one particular world has a GWP of X and GT rules says that it has a GWP of Y and Pocket Empires come up with a third figure, they're probably all three a bit off. I then either ignore the differences (that's often the case) or sit down and try to figure out the 'truth'. But whether or not I care enough to do something about it, I'm quite sure that there is only one[*] truth to be found.


Hans

[*] Well, two. [Wink]
--------------------------------------
IMTU I explain discrepancies this way.
Each sourcebook or worldbook is a work done by an author respected at the time of Emperor Strephon. It is to be held in as high esteem as any respected author would be, but it is not a holy writ. Any disaggreement between them is the natural disaggreement between different scholars.
For instance Behind the Claw and Sword Worlds describe the Swordies differently. I assume they are different writer's opinions. The same with Rim of Fire's slightly-less-uncharitable-then-normal description of the Solimani Confederation.
Where the contradictions are to great even for this method(Rebellion vs Gurps), I simply prune the version I don't like.
Difference in GWP can also be explained by variations from different times. In other words maybe both were right because the different books are for different periods.
This can of course be combined with Hans' method.
By the way if there are several versions of the GWP of a given world(or whatever)why not make that an adventure? Have the PC's be scouts sent by the IISS to reconcile the difference.
 
I don't think it should be a warmed over Dr. Who or anything, but time travel could be a fix for ALL TUs if done right, and it could also be kind of cool!
Certainly cool, but according to whose ideal are things going to be changed? Will the majority of sapients be better off afterwards? These are the sort of questions I am considering in my upcoming novel...if I even get the time to finish thise last three chapters...
toast.gif


For game mechanics I like the time travel rules in Time Master (by Pacesetter) and especially the rules for handling temporal paradoxes in Time Tricks (supplement for same game).
Have you ever seen the game Time War, by Yaquinto? It gave excellent rules for simulating training agents, how to conduct time warfare, and even gave a future history where, after things had stabilized, Christmasd was April 17th!

But does it sort of make sense what we are seeing?
Sound ok, or has my potato been baking too long?
Sure, it does make sense. If you subscribe to the 'river' theory, as I do, one can see those very effects.
By the way, I like my potatoes with butter AND sour cream. An occasional cholesterol spike won;t kill me (I hope).


But there are two overriding things here for me - one, that Time Travel should only really happen in one direction, that being forward. Two - even if Time Travel were possible (backwards, that is), it should be one of those "you can't change the timeline conundrums", i.e., the past is set and nothing that can be done will change things, as they have already happened, as it were.
Ever read Poul Anderson's Time Patrol stories?
History is very malleable, and agents frequently have to make ad-hoc teams to restore their version of history after a malevolent group has altered it. They are also supplied by an unknown sourcein the far future, that even the time agents cannot reach. Perhaps for them, time travel is a one-way trip, and they are examining historical records to see what needs to be adjusted. Multiversal database, anyone?

What if: Each Era "Master" supplement was implemented as an expedition into the past/another dimension/etc.
I LIKE!

Regarding the entire 'canon' controversy...
My ATU is so divergent in places as to be almost something else than TRAVELLER, but I never found another system worth using. FTL commo and multi-parsec stargates are sort of non-standard... :D
Having been with it since the very beginning, I always have a soft spot for the OTU, but my munchkin players never cared for the details, they just wanted to inflict maximum damage...
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It is a formidable but worthwhile project, and I wish you great success if you attempt it.

As always, YMMV.
 
My TU is close to the OTU, in all regards but changes to polities that need changing for me.

The one place where the disparity of universes gets me the most is Astrogation and Player's preconcieved notions of how close I stick to OTU.

I know as books and data are freely available to all players, I defeat that by denying the phrase "But that's not how they do it in... <book>" to have any value in the game.

I guess reconciliation is only vital for Pre-OTU settings, to make those settings realistically build up to and flavor the OTU. Future ones could be conjectural.

The more I step back and look at in its entire, it is certain if the OTU is to be viable selling point of the game, it needs to work and make sense. A new Traveller can only bite off so much in one go.
 
Well, on the off chance that it'll help someone here with ideas, let me spill out a concept I had for timeline/reality modification I had once for a superhero RPG I was running (well, a rather dark superhero game where heroes discovered the source of their otherworldly powers were a form of energy that their 'mutant' genes were an antenna for and that energy was slowly damaging reality - breaking it down and making it dissolve). But for a while, I was flirting with the idea that Grandfather's pinched off pocket universe was all about studying the nature of reality as a hook to reuse the concepts for a new group of players.

A campaign could be made around the players stumbling on Grandfather's pocket universe and given an oppurtunity to speak with this godlike being. And perhaps, out of whim or even pity, he allows them to play with his reality lens some. Or more likely, he feigns pity because he's curious to see what these devolved beings do with his toy - he might have moved on to even more interesting things, things that make reality travel look mundane and we couldn't even comphrehend a fraction of.

The Reality Lens in Traveller would probably be some device that doesn't fit on the TL scale. When you discover it, TL essentially becomes irrelevant because, in the words of one of my players from that past campaign, you've "just found the screwdriver that God used when He put the universe together." It essentially uses psionics to view images of other realities (psionics in this case being a manipulation of extra-dimensional particles, like how some modern physicists view gravity). Travel to these other universes is much more difficult, but in this case, Grandfather has figured out how (it would involve a predictably bright flash of light as energy is 'sucked' from the target reality to compensate for what the characters are bringing).

Possible campaigns might be of players trying to 'collide' universes together to create an ideal reality and eliminate unpleasant ones by influencing events. Not only that, they could run into different versions of themselves doing the exact same thing, except with different results in mind, leading to indirect conflict where they know of their doubles, but can never meet them, since they don't know which way Synchronisity will shuffle if they met (or perhaps they know the other is stronger so spend their time trying to achieve their goals and avoid themselves).

There's a number of rules and tenets to how this "time travel" works:

1. Reality is organized something like a "tree" with different decisions branching off of the main branch as they're made. It's entirely possible that there is a "true" trunk to the tree of reality somewhere from which all other realities branch off from. What is in this "true" world is up to debate. It is like some place like Zelazny's "Amber"? Is it where the Creator dwells? Nobody really knows, or if there really even is a central "trunk." It's something of a religious/philosphical debate amongst those in the know.

2. Of course, this means that every picosecond (or less) an infinite variety of realities are being created by the "decisions" of every bit of energy. However, the main branches of reality have a certain gravity to them: If the differences aren't large enough to generate a "break-away velocity" the branch is immediately sucked back into the main branch and resynchronized. Those living in that reality never even notice the difference - for "us" every moment of our existence we're being shuffled in with slightly different versions of ourselves. As certain events are more likely to happen than others, a sort of "mob rule" decides the nature of this 'master reality.' This effect is known as Synchronisity. Synchronisity also has another effect, detailed below.

3. The less alike a reality is from yours, the more difficult it is to travel there. So a world where magic works would be almost impossible to travel to from most TUs. However, you could 'inch forward' by going to intermediate realities between between your reality and the other.

4. If a reality is too much like yours, you face Synchronisity or an inability to target it. Realities that are too close to your own can't be targetted because they're still too alike your own reality. The targetter of your "time travel device" keeps getting reset to your own by Synchronisity effects.

5. Branching realities experience time at different rates. Some realities split off and move at a slower pace, others faster. This is the most important and most interesting point for "time travellers." It's possible to "travel through time" by going to a reality that is moving slower than your own to go into the "past" and faster than your own to travel to the "future." However, you're not travelling to the past or future in either case. You're travelling to a past for future.

A few observations:

You're not really time-travelling, though it looks like it. Because of the nature of reality travel, it's not true time travel, but for those experiencing it, it might as well be. So if the players want to go "back" in time and prevent Strephon's death, for instance, they're welcome to. There's an infinite number of realities where this has already happened.

No Grandfather Paradoxes. You don't get this problem here. Without the egotism of the "one true reality" existing, you can have as many permutations of reality as you'd like. If a kid finds a "slow" reality and kills his grandfather, that reality will simply go on as a place without grandfather (or descendants). Of course, there'll also be a few branchings where the gun doesn't work. Where the kid uses a knife and is caught. Or the blade breaks. But most of these realities are folded back instantly as unlikely.

Be Aware of Synchronisity. Due to the nature of reality to "fold in" things into itself, there's a danger to travellers that they'll get "folded in" to the reality they're visiting. It's the most extreme in cases where another version of you is already alive. You get synchronized into the version that's already there. In most cases, all differences are "lost in the shuffle." GMs may choose to have certain events stick around as incongrous thoughts or deja vu and such. If a version of you was once alive, you'll get synchronized with the memories of yourself as you once were - your personality will shift towards the former you. So if in this alternate reality you were "evil", you would gradually gain the memories and personality of the alternate you. Synchronisity isn't always bad. Most arrivals to any new reality are "brought up to speed" (or slowed down) to the local time scale, as well as any other smaller changes to allow them to operate. Those who don't go insane.

There Are A Nearly Infinite, But Finite Number of Realities. Due to Synchronisity effects following permutations of large "probable" events only, and folding all others into itself, there are a finite number of realities. Mind you, this number is so large, we humans have yet to find a need to write out a number that large, but it's not infinite. It's also entirely possible for a formerly independent reality to get folded in if it becomes too similar to another, with the reality with more probable events being dominant. Again, those who dwell in both realities never notice the difference when folded together (with the GM's option that a few individuals might realize something is different - this isn't a good thing and usually leads to madness. It's like when Krishna shows Arjuna the nature of reality in the Bhagavad Gita, and let's face it, most people aren't as enlightened as Arjuna).

Madness Is Relative. This is one of the disturbing realizations that players will make as they travel - that many of those with mental problems could just as easily be considered as "de-synchronized" from the reality they're in, but perfectly fine in another. The biochemical and genetic imbalances and all that are there, but those aren't always problems in other realities.

You Can't Go Home - Home Is Where the Heart Is. By this view of reality, players who leave their reality can never return and be sure that the reality they return to is really the one they left. However, pragmatic characters will realize all they need to find is a close-match and Synchronisity effects will shuffle them into their new reality and they'll never know any different after that. This will probably disturb a lot of players, but hey, when you're playing around in the Creator's Toolbox, it's inevitable you discover some unpleasant Truths (with the capital "T").

You Can Find The Ultimate Universe. This is probably the greatest temptation of all reality travellers. It's possible, if they look long enough. They can find that universe where not only did Strephon live, he goes on to do all the things the players would like him to do, in addition to that, the character marries his (or her) one True Love - the one he or she loved and lost forever. And better than that, the character and just happened to be vaporized in anti-matter explosion a moment before...allowing the player character to step in and make things "right" again. Or perhaps unmaking a decision he or she really regretted. This possibility can be mined endlessly for pathos (for a suprisingly good example of this in an otherwise cheesy movie, see Kirk in the "Nexus in Star Trek: Generations" - he knows it's not "real" but he doesn't care).

- Sample Idea: One of the characters in my current MT campaign is like that, playing the concept of the "regretful war criminal / concentration camp guard." He was one of Lucan's Admirals in the Final War. The "reality" where my campaign is in is the one where he's basically "retired" to. So he knows things he shouldn't, and he occasionally slips with knowledge about the future and such. He was the architect of the worst of the Black War strikes, responsible for orders that killed millions directly, trillions indirectly. He's also heavily irradiated from the Final War in his reality, so he's suffering chronic and progressive tissue damage that an obscenely expensive cocktail of drugs and treatments can only slow, not stop so he'll die soon. He knew about the Virus and when Dulinor attacked the Research Station, he knew it was the end, and started searching for a reality where he was killed but the Civil War was going on. He was determined to blunt the effects. But he doesn't mind - he sees it as fate/karma/God catching up to him. He spends his time helping charities and trying to stop the bloodshed of the Civil War in the time he has left. All the other characters think he's this walking saint (who coughs up blood) ... if they only knew. Now that their thermonuclear bombardment of Cymbelene failed to destroy the chips, they're off to strike at Omicron station and our admiral is hitting Synchronisity head-on and he's going to lose. He's realizing that he's changing the lyrics to the song, but the melody remains the same.

Reality is Relative. Reality is based on belief. Ordinary sophonts can't really tap much psionic power, but when you add trillions of them together, they decide what is "likely" and what isn't. This is a clause that prevents players from taking fusion guns to conquer a stone age Terra to change reality, for instance. If the local reality isn't ready to handle your fusion gun ... it simply doesn't work. No amount of analysis will ever figure out the problem. Chemical reactions that are laws where you come from simply don't work in your weapon.
 
I generally use the following in my approach to time travel.

First: at some point in the future, whatever changes in the time line are going to be made have already been made. In other words, it has already happened. Therefore it's not a problem.

Second: Timelines branch only when uncertainty/paradox is involved. In other words, the GT and MT timelines diverged because somebody travelled back in time and prevented the Assassination from happening. By doing this, however, they prevented themselves from travelling back in time to prevent the Assassination from happening. As a result, they travelled back in time to prevent the Assassination from happening...

Since the Assassination both happened and didn't happen, two relatively stable timelines were created.

For the record, there is a canonical "time machine" of sorts. The CT Zhodani module had an Ancients McGuffin that gave visions of the future. That means that it was effectively passing information *back from the future*...
 
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