Traveller: REVOLUTION!

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

This topic is raised to start a theoretical discussion on how you would handle/present in a campaign:

A Imperium-wide popular uprising against the Nobility/Status Quo in the Imperium

OR

A Confederation-Wide popular uprising against the Solomani Party (which to me seems to make more sense, due to the opressive nature of the Solomani Party.)

I realize that this is a rather broad concept to sum up neatly, but perhaps an alternative to the "Rebellion" concept deserves some rumination. Has anyone else had ideas along this line?

 

[kaladorn]

One early thought:

The Rebellion in the Imperium had factions. But no faction had an Empire-spanning plan. Even Dulinor had a quick plan that was meant to be over immediately. Didn't work out, but he didn't have a sufficient afterplan to make it stick.

Organizing anything across a huge thousand-plus world polity is going to:
A) Put a new definition to the word 'challenge'
B) Attract the attention of lots of politicos and others like SolSec or INI
C) Require stupid amounts of money to coordinate and mantain communications

I'm not actually sure this is feasible in a TU. Now, you could have a Solomani Gov't so out of touch it sparks a cross-the-board common uprising, but I don't see a single leader or group organizing it. I see a lot of groups coming out of the woodwork to tear down.

I think this kind of 'easier to destroy than consolidate' reality of large empires as serving to explain the downward spiral and lack of happy resolution to the Rebellion.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Perhaps a commonality in the behavior of the Nobility or Upper Party could be the spark. There have been emperors and Party Chairmen in the past that certainly opressed (even at a distance) subjects to the point of revolt. Crushing Imperial Taxes or The Solomani Confed goes hyper-totalitarian, that sort of thing.

 

[far-trader]

Good topic Baron, not worried about your standing are you

I think an Imperial Revolt would be doubtful. The bulk of the population is stuck on their respective homeworld with little or no real concept of "The Imperium". It's just too big and too far removed.

So it would have to be staged from within the very Noble Houses. They are the only ones who have a chance of carrying it and the only ones who stand to gain from it.

Perhaps the Noble Houses concerned with mercantile interests, tracing their liniage back to the First Imperium have had enough of the "new" Imperialists that came out of the Ramshackle Empire and have decided to overthrow the military and return to the old ways of trade and empire building.

Or maybe the military is fed up with all the money being diverted to building merchant ships, money they feel is more needed to hold off alien invasion. They decide to engage in a coup and set up a military government and go on their own form of empire building, by conquest and subjugation.

A third possibility, depending on YTU's Psionic story. Long suppresed and secretly training and waiting the Psionic Institue goes public simultaneously across the Imperium. They are in control having carefully placed members in key positions of power over many centuries. No longer will they live and train in the shadows. No longer will people of talent live in constant worry of discovery. The evoluntionary superior humans gifted with powers of the mind will lead the Imperium into a new age. Any mute brains who oppose them will be crushed and there is no suprising a ruling class that can read thoughts. Your precious anti-psionic helms will not protect you, we control that manufacturing industry and have for several decades been modifying them.

Anyway just a couple surface thoughts

 

[Golan2072]

My favorite idea about alternate history: The MegaTraveller "palace revolution" (i.e. the first phase of the Rebellion) could be counted by a people's revolution, and the emergance of a new faction (that is, soldiers/sailors taking over their ships/units and refusion to fire on their brethern for some noble's cause; the rise of a faction not headed by a noble, but by some elected council).

Another idea: who says that the "revolution" would be headed by the people or the nobles? What about the megacorps, especially the ones not headed by high ranking nobles? Corporates have money and influence; some might wish to get rid of the stifling, stagnant Imperium and create a state more favorable for their bottom line. A religious jihad could be another possibility.

I once thought (while considering using the OTU) about a quasi-religious revolutionary organization, which I called "The Daughters of Gaia" organizing a mass rebellion against the Confederation's opressive regime; their faith was inspired by Kim Stanely Robinson's Mars saga, especially by Hiroko's group in it.

But all in all, a smaller custom TU would probably be easier to stage revolutions in, due to shorter communication lines. MTU is about a single sector in size, and the Insurrection against the Solar Triumvirate, which created the Alliance, took place all over it, but succeeded only in two subsectors.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I am not sure that a revolution would generally be in the megacorps' interests, 2-4601. They mostly prefer stability - even bad stability.

Generally, yeah, the 3I is too large (even the Solomani Rim is huge) for a wide rebellion. You would need to get a sector to rebel successfully - then you might get something inexorable going.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
I am not sure that a revolution would generally be in the megacorps' interests, 2-4601. They mostly prefer stability - even bad stability.

Yeah, but a coup to place their puppets in power, if possible, would benefit them quite well. Depends on the corp, it's current influence and its projected ability to keep the conspiracy under control. You are right - a true revolution is not in the best interests of the corporate Bottom Line; a coup detat, on the other hand...

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

That would be a supreme irony to have an uprising or the population with the end result of corporate rule. The megacorps would certainly have the resources to stir things up a bit.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
What about the megacorps, especially the ones not headed by high ranking nobles?

Are there any?

Aside from anything else, the heads of any outfit that is likely to become a megacorp are likely to become high ranking nobles along the way.

Besides, the Imperium is essentially a life support system for the Megacorps. It suppresses piracy, and lets them get away with murder (literally).

My guess would be that an Imperial revolution would be an exercise in secessionism.

Something like the Ilelish revolt might work. I suspect that one of the reasons the Imperium was so slow to suppress it was that there was a real risk that other Domains/Sectors were considering similar measures. In other words, if the Imperial government hadn't been careful, they might have ended up fighting on multiple fronts.

If this happens, the Imperium could very well lose, and fragment into a bunch of Domain, Sector, and occasionally smaller bits.

Which might be an interesting setting to play in, by the way...

 

[far-trader]

Employee 2-4601's idea of a Religious Uprising might have the best shot and it fits the Popular Revolution plot.

There would be organization, fanacticism, wide support both in terms of social strata and physical breadth of the Imperium including powerful and influential persons in government, nobility, industry and military. Yep, I like that idea too.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by far-trader:
There would be organization, fanacticism, wide support both in terms of social strata and physical breadth of the Imperium including powerful and influential persons in government, nobility, industry and military.

The main problem with it would be the relationship of the rebellious religion with the other faiths of the Imperium.

The Imperium is extremely heterogeneous. Many of its citizens aren't human, and those that are are of a zillion and one different cultures.

A rebel cult would quickly find itself facing fanatical opposition from other religious factions.

It might be able to get away with secession, but it wouldn't be able to take over the Imperium.

Well, what about the Solomani?

Frankly, I would say the same. While the Solomani draw from a narrower set of cultures, they are still incredibly diverse, which means that the rebels will still be opposed by by other powerful religious/cultural/ideological factions.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Employee 2-4601's idea of a Religious Uprising might have the best shot and it fits the Popular Revolution plot.

There would be organization, fanacticism, wide support both in terms of social strata and physical breadth of the Imperium including powerful and influential persons in government, nobility, industry and military. Yep, I like that idea too.

alanb drew out one of the main problems. Let me draw out another. Many religious experiences are inherently ecstatic, not rational. Chances are any sort of very fanatical follower isn't a real 'deep thinker'. Thus, as a consequence (not 100% true, but as a trend), such folk end up being either anti-technological or technologically apathetic. Many religious sects are actively anti-technology.

That said, coordinating an interstellar revolt then becomes very problematic.

Now, you could certainly imagine a revolt for religious reasons spreading over a sector or something of the sort, then an Imperial suppression, then a counter-reaction everywhere to the heavy handed tactics and using the logic 'if it could happen to X sector, it could happen here!'. But it would be a massive uncoordinated revolt.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
alanb drew out one of the main problems. Let me draw out another. Many religious experiences are inherently ecstatic, not rational. Chances are any sort of very fanatical follower isn't a real 'deep thinker'. Thus, as a consequence (not 100% true, but as a trend), such folk end up being either anti-technological or technologically apathetic. Many religious sects are actively anti-technology.

While this is true for many RL religios, it wasn't true for all religions in history (Islam in it's "golden age" in medieval times didn't get in the way of alchemy, mathematics, astronomy and engineering, or even helped them, for example), it isn't 100% true for all religions today (I know several deeply religious Jewish scientists who pursue their science as a way of "understanding creation"), and things could theoretically be different in the future: Just look at some "posthumanist" ideas, especially ones involving "singularity", for one thing. Information age spirituality could be a very technological thing... It could also be reactionary, such as the Butlerian (sp?) Jihad in Frank Herbert's Dune universe, which was a religious crusade against AIs.

 

[kaladorn]

I did say it wasn't 100%. Plus I think most of those who are 'deep thinkers', even if they are commited to their religion, aren't the sort to go out and wage holy wars and pogroms and revolutions.
Sure, there might be some, I was generalizing with all the risk inherent in that process.

I also don't think people into "new age" (information age) spirituality are likely to be mounting revolutions. That's like the idea of a hemp-sandal wearing army... it just doesn't jibe.

And a religious crusade against the AIs is pretty anti-technological, even if it only has a limited focus.

 

[jappel]

What exactly are all those Ine Givar cells up to, anyway?

A simultaneous Imperium-wide revolt, IMHO, would be difficult to the point of impossibility to plan and carry out. The sheer distances and communication delays would make planning and coordination simply impossible.

The staggering number of sophonts involved raises problems also. I suspect the membership of the conspiracy would have to be in the millions; operational security on that kind of scale would be a nightmare.

On the subject of sophonts - don't forget that the Imperium isn't a 100% human enterprise when thinking about possible causes. The Ael Yael outlook and concerns will be drastically different from the Virushi, for example.

Some folks (Doug Berry and Glenn Goffin on the TML among them) have remarked on the Ine Givar in their TUs being a loose confederation of revolutionary groups with a broad array of philosophies, manifestos and agendas. This fits better with most common visions of the Imperium, with the immense diversity of local cultures, IMHO. One could envision the leaders of some of the larger groups deciding on a D-day, possibly with the idea of drawing some portion of the Imperial strength away from certain areas, and then making their real strikes in the areas thus weakened. Other groups within the Ine Givar would then seize the opportunity to strike in their local regions. Once the Imperial shackles are overthrown, at least locally, it's not unreasonable (and given the size & diversity of the 3I, statistically certain) that some of these groups would start to fight against each other, or against some particular segment of the population.

I think the end result of this scenario would look remarkably like some aspects of the official Rebellion period; different factions governing particular areas, some aligned with or at least not overtly hostile to others, some locked in mortal combat.

Just my Cr 2.

John

 

[kafka47]

I wonder if the Ine Givar really know what each cell is up to. I have always imagined them as a boggeyman for the nobility. Threats of democracy and the like, only work in times of crisis. Therefore, acted like a fifth column during the Frontier Wars but once funding from the Zhodani dried up due to the Joes Exodus perhaps, they thought of their role as the welcoming committee...sadly, the Joes did not welcome them...instead treated them as the criminals that they are.

I am currently reading an interesting book (Modern Jihad : Tracing the Dollars behind the Terror Networks) on the economics of International Terrorism, whereby, major liberation groups were merely sifling off resources and creating micro war economies to keep their machines of terror going.

I should imagine the Ine Givar trying to do the same in the 1248. Perhaps, this is one of the factors that lead to the shattering of the Regency?

 

[kaladorn]

I always considered the Ine Givar a tool of the Zhodani - funded or not (activated or not) at the whim of the Zhodani overall strategic need. Yes, you sometimes get rogues going off and doing their own thing, but a supported movement with MCr flowing in from outside is different than an unsupported one.

They were well meaning, some of them. They believed what they were fighting for. And in many ways, the Imperial treatment of psis argues the Ine Givar (if not funded by SORAG or the Tavchredl or whomever) might have the right idea.

The IRA lost most of its external funding once the cold war died away/changed forms. Of course, wanted men with a history of violence don't just vanish nor do the causes their core members believed in. So if anything, the Ine Givar could get more nasty and violent after the Zhos give up the financial puppet master role by drying up their funding.

 

[kafka47]

Well, Kaladorn...you & I are on the same wavelength regarding this group. What would their relationship between with the underground psionic institutes. Keeping in mind, the whole Psi. Institute phenomena is probably a INI front organization to lure unsuspecting psychics into Imperial Research plans (for good eg. Longbow or for ill - Blue Sun/ Blue Handed guys from Firefly, anyone?)

The psis were originally Vilani dissidents on the Rim, what happened when the expanding Terrans encountered them?

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
I always considered the Ine Givar a tool of the Zhodani - funded or not (activated or not) at the whim of the Zhodani overall strategic need.

There is no reason to doubt that there would be anti-Imperial rebel groups. The Imperium is a rather nasty business in many ways. There is a lot to fight against!

I assume that the IG are heavily factionalised. This is, to a large extent, a result of them being drawn from a host of different worlds and species, plus a certain amount of fragmentation following their defeat in the Fifth Frontier War.

I can't see the Ine Givar being able to overthrow the Imperial government. I have trouble seeing them being able to spread their influence much beyond the Spinward Marches, or even being able to adequately organise all of that sector. They might, however, be able to split a subsector sized chunk or two off the Imperium if the latter went into serious crisis. The result would be a couple of Federation of Arden style buffer states.

Incidentally, the majority of the IRA's "external funding" has always come from the USA, and still does.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
This topic is raised to start a theoretical discussion on how you would handle/present in a campaign:

The wealth possessed by the 3I's Nobility is vast. Far greater than anything a measly little rebellion could mount. This means that anti-rebel forces are going to be well-equipped, well-paid, and well-trained. Coordination and communications amongst anti-rebel forces will be extensive. Their morale will be high, and they'll feel they're working for the right side (or, at least, the winning side) against stupid morons.

The existence of the NAS tends to put a quick damper on low-tech guerilla warfare. It would take high-tech jamming to stop an NAS, I think (or some pretty snazzy high-tech headgear), which removes "low-tech" from the equation); and EM emissions are their own problem.

The rebels will need to infiltrate the ranks of the Nobility's servants, in all areas, from the ground-up, in the civil and military branches. Infiltrating the intelligence services will be a lot tougher. TL-15 Psychological Sciences will be able to determine a lot that we can't today, and do it more reliably. Plus, TL-15 technology will provide plenty of systems that make a TL-7 or 8 lie-detector look like a Dick Tracy decoder ring out of cereal box. Advanced psychology and technology will combine to assure a high level of reliable entrants into the intelligence services, and a low level of disgruntled employees and employee sabotage (both passive and aggressive).

Overall, I think the rebel's would not be able to carry out an action, Imperium-wide, that would be successful. Maybe a few worlds, yes. Maybe. But then the IN shows up and bombards them back into the stone age (which the IN has done before, historically speaking).

Only an actual take over of large fractions of the IN would really allow the rebellion to succeed. IMTU, there are plenty of anti-rebellion safeguards on the IN to prevent a recurrence of the Civil War.

The rebels would be working against an array of forces layered into place over centuries. Their only advantages would be fitting in between the cracks . . . like a stainless lanthanum rat (maybe).