Trade question

[Daddicus]

When selling, we check table B "Selling Goods". At the bottom, the tech level (TL) effect =

10% x Source TL minus Market TL

Taken as written, it mathematically means ((0.1 x STL) - MTL). But, that will almost always be a negative number. So, that can't be right. Plus, it doesn't tell us what to do with it.

The best reading I can think of is 0.1 x (STL-MTL). But, then, what do we do with it? 10% of SLT 10 - MTL 5 is 0.5, or 50%. Is that applied to the whole thing? If so, as a multiplier, or as an addend?

My guess is this comes from something historical. But, with my limited knowledge of the games history, I don't know what it means.

Help!

 

[tjoneslo]

Your final assessment is correct.

Calculate the base price (5,000) plus the trade effects.

0.1 * (STL - MTL) is then multiplied by (base price + trade effects). The result is added to the above sum.

The idea here is you want to buy from high TL worlds and sell to low TL worlds. It re-enforces the idea that TL is more a measure of economic strength (i.e. rich vs poor) than any real TL differences in the worlds.

This system comes from Book 7 (Merchant Prince) and carried forward from there. If you want to check the sources that would be a place to start.

 

[Daddicus]

Thank you!

 

[coliver988]

Sorry, thread necromancy but as this is a trade thread:

I can't seem to find how much tonnage the cargo is when doing speculative trade. I've got the costs, codes and all that figured out (well, I think I do), but there seems to be nothing to indicate tonnage.

And along those lines, I do find it odd that you can roll for a random item, and they are all the same cost from the origin world.

And it also appears that the base purchase price is set: you do not roll on the actual value table. Is that the case?

What I am thinking I may do is add a tonnage factor to the T5 cargos for my software, and so Cr5000 of bulk protein may be 50dTons, whereas Cr5000 of electronic parts is 2dTon. Or something along those lines. A percentage of the cost (bulk protein = 1% 0r 0.01, electronic parts is .04% or .0004)

 

[Ackehece]

Sorry, thread necromancy but as this is a trade thread:

I can't seem to find how much tonnage the cargo is when doing speculative trade. I've got the costs, codes and all that figured out (well, I think I do), but there seems to be nothing to indicate tonnage.

And along those lines, I do find it odd that you can roll for a random item, and they are all the same cost from the origin world.

And it also appears that the base purchase price is set: you do not roll on the actual value table. Is that the case?

What I am thinking I may do is add a tonnage factor to the T5 cargos for my software, and so Cr5000 of bulk protein may be 50dTons, whereas Cr5000 of electronic parts is 2dTon. Or something along those lines. A percentage of the cost (bulk protein = 1% 0r 0.01, electronic parts is .04% or .0004)

all trade is done in lots.

pg 475 T5.09
"Lot. A lot is a single shipment of goods. A lot is identified
by its displacement in tons (one ton equals 13.5 cubic
meters). Each lot is a distinct shipment and may not be
subdivided. A ship captain may accept or reject specific lots
based on their best fit within the ship’s cargo hold. A lot can
be freight, cargo or mail."


"A speculator may buy goods and ship them; he considers
the lot cargo, while the ship carrying the goods considers
it freight."



that is to say a all shipments are made up of 1 or more lots.
so min is 1 dtonne and max is your cargo space.

 

[Ackehece]

Your final assessment is correct.

Calculate the base price (5,000) plus the trade effects.

0.1 * (STL - MTL) is then multiplied by (base price + trade effects). The result is added to the above sum.

The idea here is you want to buy from high TL worlds and sell to low TL worlds. It re-enforces the idea that TL is more a measure of economic strength (i.e. rich vs poor) than any real TL differences in the worlds.

This system comes from Book 7 (Merchant Prince) and carried forward from there. If you want to check the sources that would be a place to start.

brokers also affect final selling and purchase costs. If your trader has a broker your final value may be upwards of 400% of the predicted final value.

so trader and broker work together. Trader creates a pricing floor, broker raises the ceiling on prices.

 

[coliver988]

thanks, but I still don't see where the size of the lot gets defined...also having that definition 15 pages before the tables - no wonder I could not find it!

 

[Ackehece]

thanks, but I still don't see where the size of the lot gets defined...also having that definition 15 pages before the tables - no wonder I could not find it!

it might not be clear enough in the definition but a lot is (unclearly) defined as 1 displacement ton.
if you have 6 lots of unobtainium, you would have 6 displacement tons of it.
if you have 1 unit of cargo <unspecified> it would be 1 dton.

this may break down when you deal with the idea of "Valuta" literal shipments of money. but in that case... counting the safe it may still reach 1 dton

 

[coliver988]

it might not be clear enough in the definition but a lot is (unclearly) defined as 1 displacement ton.
if you have 6 lots of unobtainium, you would have 6 displacement tons of it.
if you have 1 unit of cargo <unspecified> it would be 1 dton.

this may break down when you deal with the idea of "Valuta" literal shipments of money. but in that case... counting the safe it may still reach 1 dton

If 1 lot = 1dTon, then where does it indicate how many lots? And why just use a new name for something that has been around 40+ years?

My interpretation was a lot was a multiple of tons (1 or more) that could not be broken down. But I want to know either the total tonnage per lot if a lot can be more than 1 ton, or the total number of lots available if 1 lot = 1 ton.

As a related aside, I really do not like the T5 trade rules: I like things to cost different amounts. 1 lot/1 ton of grav plates should really cost more than 1 lot/1 ton of "bulk protein" at purchase (selling could be the opposite depending on where you end up; but purchasing seems like there should be differentiation). It loses the sense of urgency or curiosity and just becomes the dreaded accountants in space if everything is the same.

 

[aramis]

If 1 lot = 1dTon, then where does it indicate how many lots? And why just use a new name for something that has been around 40+ years?

My interpretation was a lot was a multiple of tons (1 or more) that could not be broken down. But I want to know either the total tonnage per lot if a lot can be more than 1 ton, or the total number of lots available if 1 lot = 1 ton.

As a related aside, I really do not like the T5 trade rules: I like things to cost different amounts. 1 lot/1 ton of grav plates should really cost more than 1 lot/1 ton of "bulk protein" at purchase (selling could be the opposite depending on where you end up; but purchasing seems like there should be differentiation). It loses the sense of urgency or curiosity and just becomes the dreaded accountants in space if everything is the same.

Freight is in daily lots - T5.09, p 486, Passengers & Freight step D.

Erratum: it doesn't actually specify that that is one lot.

 

[Major B]

Freight is in daily lots - T5.09, p 486, Passengers & Freight step D.

Erratum: it doesn't actually specify that that is one lot.

I think the implication is that you can find one lot of freight per day and the size of the lot (in tons) is determined by the formula:

Freight = ((Flux + Pop) x (total TCs + 1)) + Liaison
TCs = Ag As Ba De Fl Hi Ic In Lo Na Ni Po Ri Va only

So if I am on a Pop 10 Hi Ri world with Liaison-1 and a flux roll of 2: ((2 + 10) x (2 + 1)) + 1 = 37 tons in today's lot.

 

[coliver988]

I think the implication is that you can find one lot of freight per day and the size of the lot (in tons) is determined by the formula:

Freight = ((Flux + Pop) x (total TCs + 1)) + Liaison
TCs = Ag As Ba De Fl Hi Ic In Lo Na Ni Po Ri Va only

So if I am on a Pop 10 Hi Ri world with Liaison-1 and a flux roll of 2: ((2 + 10) x (2 + 1)) + 1 = 37 tons in today's lot.

After re-reading things, I think you are correct. I had it stuck in my head that freight was the bulk cargo.

So thanks everyone - that is what I will be using. At least it sparked an interesting conversation, and another thread for the various available cargos.

 

[Wol]

Was that pop digit or pop? Seems like very small amount of freight?

regards

 

[Major B]

Was that pop digit or pop? Seems like very small amount of freight?

I used the pop digit. I think that is what the formula intended. I also agree that the size is small for big freighters but I think the table is intended for small traders, not the multi-kton ships that run regular routes and probably have lots consigned by their company in advance of their arrival.

A 37-ton lot fills almost half the hold of a Free Trader (with 82 tons of space to fill). I forget what a Far Trader can carry but it is probably around 60.

Also, I made up the example so here are a few OTU examples using examples (UWPs from T5.09 page 476):

Freight = ((Flux + Pop) x (total TCs + 1)) + Liaison
TCs = Ag As Ba De Fl Hi Ic In Lo Na Ni Po Ri Va only

Regina (A788899-C) Pop=8, Ri Pa Ph An Cp
The only Trade Classification that applies is Rich (Ri)
Flux roll varies from -5 to +5 so each day a Captain can find a lot that varies from ((-5+8)x(1+1))=6 to ((5+8)x(1+1))=26 tons plus his Liaison skill.

Zivije (C6B199C-B) Pop=9 Fl He Hi In
Three Trade Codes apply so the range of lot sizes will vary from ((-5+9)x(3+1))=16 to ((5+9)x(3+1))=56 tons plus his liaison skill.

Chronor (A6369A5-D) Pop=9 Hi Cp ranges from ((-5+9)x(1+1))=8 to ((5+9)x(1+1))=28 tons plus his liaison skill.

This implies that Free Traders should avoid Low Pop worlds unless they have multiple trade codes or unless the ship can afford some down time to fill up the hold.

 

[Major B]

How about a related trade question - this time relating to passengers rather than freight/cargo.

The T5.09 ACS design tables allow you to install Steerage passenger facilities on your ship. They are actually more cost-effective than low passage berths since you can pack two steerage passengers into a half ton while low passage is only one per half ton. Also, steerage cost twice the low passage rate (pg 310).

My question is how should we determine the number of steerage passengers and what modifiers should apply to the roll? The trade and commerce section (475-486) doesn't mention steerage at all.

My first thought is to roll for Low Passengers twice with the second roll indicating steerage passengers but are there any other ideas? Should Streetwise be used as a Mod as it is for Low Passengers? Should there be a passenger demand modifier based on allocated space like there is for High and Mid passengers?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Not that I'm an expert but pretty damned close.

How about a related trade question - this time relating to passengers rather than freight/cargo.

Okay.

The T5.09 ACS design tables allow you to install Steerage passenger facilities on your ship. They are actually more cost-effective than low passage berths since you can pack two steerage passengers into a half ton while low passage is only one per half ton. Also, steerage cost twice the low passage rate (pg 310).

Nice catch, Timmii Approves! Also allows for those super cheap drugged passengers, dose with half a tab of Fast Drug and have a day, well they will. :devil:

My question is how should we determine the number of steerage passengers and what modifiers should apply to the roll? The trade and commerce section (475-486) doesn't mention steerage at all.

Well, my first thought is how much Pop is there, larger numbers generate more. I'd go with say Mod = Pop A-C +1, D-F +2, or go with or maybe add a Mod for Gov and Law. Face it if there is a high Gov type mixed with the pretty much ubiquitous at that level of government types high Law is probably going generate a ton of desperate people looking for a way off the world. And spending a week in a cramped stateroom with another fellow refugee sure beats well beatings maybe? I'd go with a similar structure for the Mods for mechanics, I mean unless you want to build the ultimate matrix that includes all those factors.

My first thought is to roll for Low Passengers twice with the second roll indicating steerage passengers but are there any other ideas? Should Streetwise be used as a Mod as it is for Low Passengers? Should there be a passenger demand modifier based on allocated space like there is for High and Mid passengers?

Sounds good, I mean if you have enough Pop maybe even roll three times (see above). Streetwise and a genuine low Soc. This is the one place where that Soc 3 can really help a crew weed out the creeps and dangerous ones. And maybe know when you should maybe give a working passage. The Mod isn't so much the space though of course that matters but too much space and it stops being Steerage and just regular old Mid Passage. The draw is not being frozen, or whatever. You take a drug and the Steward comes through with the Medic to turn everyone once a day and give them some fluids and nutrients. Fast Drug can burn through a metabolism pretty quick if not planned for. I mean right now in my real world health half a tab of Fast Drug with no care would probably burn me out and kill me. Now, when I was much healthier I would have had a blast, because "drugs, heehee". Thing is psychologically I'd much rather take a drug and bunk that a freezer and whatever.


Those are just my thoughts.


And welcome the Naval Architect club! Bravo, and thanks! Still loving those Range charts. Want some for my next boat, ping me. (yep, shameless)

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Oh, my fellow Travellers how do I love thee?

I think the implication is that you can find one lot of freight per day and the size of the lot (in tons) is determined by the formula:

Freight = ((Flux + Pop) x (total TCs + 1)) + Liaison
TCs = Ag As Ba De Fl Hi Ic In Lo Na Ni Po Ri Va only

So if I am on a Pop 10 Hi Ri world with Liaison-1 and a flux roll of 2: ((2 + 10) x (2 + 1)) + 1 = 37 tons in today's lot.

After re-reading things, I think you are correct. I had it stuck in my head that freight was the bulk cargo.

So thanks everyone - that is what I will be using. At least it sparked an interesting conversation, and another thread for the various available cargos.

I used the pop digit. I think that is what the formula intended. I also agree that the size is small for big freighters but I think the table is intended for small traders, not the multi-kton ships that run regular routes and probably have lots consigned by their company in advance of their arrival.

A 37-ton lot fills almost half the hold of a Free Trader (with 82 tons of space to fill). I forget what a Far Trader can carry but it is probably around 60.

Also, I made up the example so here are a few OTU examples using examples (UWPs from T5.09 page 476):

Freight = ((Flux + Pop) x (total TCs + 1)) + Liaison
TCs = Ag As Ba De Fl Hi Ic In Lo Na Ni Po Ri Va only

Regina (A788899-C) Pop=8, Ri Pa Ph An Cp
The only Trade Classification that applies is Rich (Ri)
Flux roll varies from -5 to +5 so each day a Captain can find a lot that varies from ((-5+8)x(1+1))=6 to ((5+8)x(1+1))=26 tons plus his Liaison skill.

Zivije (C6B199C-B) Pop=9 Fl He Hi In
Three Trade Codes apply so the range of lot sizes will vary from ((-5+9)x(3+1))=16 to ((5+9)x(3+1))=56 tons plus his liaison skill.

Chronor (A6369A5-D) Pop=9 Hi Cp ranges from ((-5+9)x(1+1))=8 to ((5+9)x(1+1))=28 tons plus his liaison skill.

This implies that Free Traders should avoid Low Pop worlds unless they have multiple trade codes or unless the ship can afford some down time to fill up the hold.

This, just all of this!


I never quite got how to do most of the T&C stuff, it's a place I'm not so good and I need to be since the next ship in the pipeline is Far Trader.

Thank you all so damned much. Sweet and now I can start working T&C properly. Again, just wow and thanks.

I feel like such rookie some days here.

 

[whartung]

Only detail is that, in theory, you need to feed and provide other life support services to conscious passengers. So, there's that potential issue.

 

[Major B]

Want some for my next boat, ping me.

Shoot me an email and I'll make one for you. I work for beer.

I never quite got how to do most of the T&C stuff, it's a place I'm not so good and I need to be since the next ship in the pipeline is Far Trader.

Hah! I've been reading up on this because I'm working on the Free Trader. I'm just getting familiar enough that I can contribute to the discussion. Is that what you wanted me to do the range diagrams for?

Only detail is that, in theory, you need to feed and provide other life support services to conscious passengers. So, there's that potential issue.

True, which will cut into the extra income. Today I built a first draft of a large 10Kton freighter using T5 ACS rules. Well half of the main hull anyway. I put in facilities for 20 Low and 20 Steerage Passengers plus crew quarters for a medic and a steward to mind them.

For the Low Passengers it worked out to:
10.0 tons for 20 Low Berths
0.5 tons for Medic Console (prefreeze health screening)
0.5 tons for a computer to monitor the low berths and life support

For Steerage:
5.0 tons for 20 Steerage pax (half ton for 2 - hot bunk)
0.5 tons for a Micro Galley (thanks [o]Magnus[/o] Mike Morgan)
2.0 tons for freshers (10 pax per ton)
1.5 tons for Steward workspace and food storage
6.0 tons for pax common space
2.0 tons of standard life support (24 humans for 25 days)

There is also 3.75 tons of storage lockers for 40 people to store what they carry on board. The space for steerage seemed reasonable. I didn't think of medicating the passengers and thought they needed some space to mill around while someone else was sleeping in the hot bunk. Figure ten at a time in the common area. I don't think it would be very comfortable.

There are also two engineering crew in the same space so 24 persons using life support.